Jetstream Crash
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From: North America
Jetstream Crash
Reports: 8 Die In Missouri Plane Crash
POSTED: 11:21 pm EDT October 19, 2004
UPDATED: 12:17 am EDT October 20, 2004
CHICAGO -- A small plane crashed in a wooded area of northeastern Missouri Tuesday evening.
Quincy, Ill., television station WGEM reported that eight people were killed in the crash, but the Associated Press said only five were confirmed dead. Three people are missing, and two survivors were found, the station said.
The Federal Aviation Administration in Chicago says the plane was believed to be a Corporate Express flight on a regular route from St. Louis to Kirksville, Missouri, when it crashed just after 7:30 p.m. CST. Corporate Express is an affiliate of American Airlines.
The aircraft, a BAC Jetstream Turbo Prop, left Lambert Airport in St. Louis earlier in the evening.
Twelve people were thought to have been on the plane but it's unclear if that figure includes crew members.
The plane's last communication at 7:33 p.m. indicated it was on a normal approach to Kirksville Regional Airport, and there was no mention of any problems.
Distributed by Internet Broadcasting Systems, Inc. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
POSTED: 11:21 pm EDT October 19, 2004
UPDATED: 12:17 am EDT October 20, 2004
CHICAGO -- A small plane crashed in a wooded area of northeastern Missouri Tuesday evening.
Quincy, Ill., television station WGEM reported that eight people were killed in the crash, but the Associated Press said only five were confirmed dead. Three people are missing, and two survivors were found, the station said.
The Federal Aviation Administration in Chicago says the plane was believed to be a Corporate Express flight on a regular route from St. Louis to Kirksville, Missouri, when it crashed just after 7:30 p.m. CST. Corporate Express is an affiliate of American Airlines.
The aircraft, a BAC Jetstream Turbo Prop, left Lambert Airport in St. Louis earlier in the evening.
Twelve people were thought to have been on the plane but it's unclear if that figure includes crew members.
The plane's last communication at 7:33 p.m. indicated it was on a normal approach to Kirksville Regional Airport, and there was no mention of any problems.
Distributed by Internet Broadcasting Systems, Inc. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: New York, NY
American Connection J-31. 6 confirmed dead, 5 missing, 2 survivors.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/20/com....ap/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/20/com....ap/index.html
Joined: Oct 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: London UK
The usual response of the US airline majors that when an incident happens to a commuter aircraft in their livery http://www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/open.file/633488/M/ with their flight number AA5966 sold on their website, departing from their terminal, cabin crew in their uniform ... etc. They immediately try to distance themselves from their affiliated commuter carrier.
From the AA website :
"Flight 5966 is operated by Corporate Airlines, an independent airline."
Our thoughts with those on board, pax and crew.
From the AA website :
"Flight 5966 is operated by Corporate Airlines, an independent airline."
Our thoughts with those on board, pax and crew.
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From: newark
back on topic
One of the survivors, a lady was found wandering around the plane and she had a broken arm. When speaking to the rescuers she stated that the plane broke-up before it hit the ground. Amazing there were any survivors.
Newarksmells
Newarksmells
Flies for fun
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From: Wishing it was somewhere sunny!
The five missing passengers have since been found dead:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/20/com....ap/index.html
http://www.corporateairlines.com/
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/20/com....ap/index.html
http://www.corporateairlines.com/
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From: newark
Looks like the end of a long hard day....It was the crew's 6th flight of the day and their 15th hour flying. Read on below...
http://start.earthlink.net/newsartic...85SJT1G0_story
Newarksmells
http://start.earthlink.net/newsartic...85SJT1G0_story
Newarksmells
Joined: Apr 2000
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From: NY
Crew Fatigue???
The flight was the sixth of the day for the crew, who had been on duty nearly 15 hours that day, within FAA-approved limits, investigators said.
Would you be happy to be operated on by a surgeon who had been on duty for 15 hours? No? But you are happy to be flown by a crew on an old turbo prop that have!
Another case of a HGV driver has a more restrictive duty day than an airplane pilot! Makes sense don't it?
Would you be happy to be operated on by a surgeon who had been on duty for 15 hours? No? But you are happy to be flown by a crew on an old turbo prop that have!
Another case of a HGV driver has a more restrictive duty day than an airplane pilot! Makes sense don't it?
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From: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Well.......as I witnessed my brother during his residency at the trauma center, he was on duty many..many long hours..frightening huh? The FAA regs are way behind the times when it comes to duty limits...I can remember some of those six-sector days in hand-flown turboprops, and lousy weather...wonder how many more people have to die before duty times are based on local report time, and sectors operated....cannot believe fatigue had nothing to do with this accident....sounds a little bit like AA at Little Rock....
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: An Island Province
The link from newarksmells suggests CFIT; can someone post a copy of the instrument approach chart for the airport or give the relevant details, NPA etc?
In addition, the report refers to a warning system; is the GPWS or EGPWS?
In addition, the report refers to a warning system; is the GPWS or EGPWS?
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From: Planet Earth
I think it`s disgusting, if in fact to be found true in the investigation , that this crew was operating after a 15 hour duty day.
I hope there will come a day in aviation when we can all look back at those STUPID and UNSAFE duty days for what they were and ARE ; a usual contributor to accidents , totally out of line with common sense , basic human physiology and that there removal ( flt duty times ) was long overdue.
US companies that pay lobbyists for the continuation of these rules have blood on their hands.
I hope there will come a day in aviation when we can all look back at those STUPID and UNSAFE duty days for what they were and ARE ; a usual contributor to accidents , totally out of line with common sense , basic human physiology and that there removal ( flt duty times ) was long overdue.
US companies that pay lobbyists for the continuation of these rules have blood on their hands.
Just a numbered other
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From: Earth
wonder how many more people have to die before duty times are based on local report time, and sectors operated
Just what are the FAA rules then.
whilst these poor devils were dying, I was doing a six sector day here in the UK. at only a little over 10 hours, I was knackered by the end of it.
niknak
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From: UK
I know that thisi s a rumour and news network, but the information contained within the posts so far is exactly what specualtive journo's feed on.
If nothing else, can we have a little decorum out of respect for those who lost their leives and their relatives?
If nothing else, can we have a little decorum out of respect for those who lost their leives and their relatives?
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: Surrounded by aluminum, and the great outdoors
Just use your brains folks....6 sectors...14+ duty hours...hand flying...convective weather....non-precision approach....formula for disaster...but hey...fault the company...one cannot because it's legal!!!! The FAA regs are stone-age...and hence the FAA's nickname...the "tombstone agency" because people have to die before they enact changes....and unfortunately not enough people have died for them to piss off the airlines by enacting regulations that give regional pilots reasonable rest/duty regulations...lived it, survived it, 20 yrs younger ago.....wouldn't try it now.....rather flip burgers and live in a fridge box in an alley...
Thread Starter
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From: North America
From the NTSB
--------------------------------
NTSB Identification: DCA05MA004
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of CORPORATE AIRLINES
Accident occurred Tuesday, October 19, 2004 in Kirksville, MO
Aircraft: British Aerospace Jetstream 32, registration:
Injuries: 13 Fatal, 2 Serious.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On October 19, 2004, about 7:45 p.m. central daylight time, a British Aerospace Jetstream 32 twin-engine turboprop airplane, operating as American Connection Flight 5966 (a feeder commuter for American Airlines), crashed during an instrument approach to the Kirksville Regional Airport in Kirksville, Missouri. The airplane carried 2 crewmembers and 13 passengers. The flight was being operated as a scheduled Part 121 airline flight. It departed from St. Louis, Missouri, about 6:45 pm and was destined for Kirksville.
According to preliminary information, the flight was being vectored by the Kansas City Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) for the Localizer Distance Measuring Equipment (LOC-DME) approach to runway 36 at Kirksville. The airplane was cleared to descend from 15,000 feet. The airplane reportedly crashed about 4 miles from the runway during the approach.
American Connection is owned and operated by Corporate Airlines, a small commuter airline based in Smyrna, Tennessee.
--------------------------------
NTSB Identification: DCA05MA004
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 121: Air Carrier operation of CORPORATE AIRLINES
Accident occurred Tuesday, October 19, 2004 in Kirksville, MO
Aircraft: British Aerospace Jetstream 32, registration:
Injuries: 13 Fatal, 2 Serious.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On October 19, 2004, about 7:45 p.m. central daylight time, a British Aerospace Jetstream 32 twin-engine turboprop airplane, operating as American Connection Flight 5966 (a feeder commuter for American Airlines), crashed during an instrument approach to the Kirksville Regional Airport in Kirksville, Missouri. The airplane carried 2 crewmembers and 13 passengers. The flight was being operated as a scheduled Part 121 airline flight. It departed from St. Louis, Missouri, about 6:45 pm and was destined for Kirksville.
According to preliminary information, the flight was being vectored by the Kansas City Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) for the Localizer Distance Measuring Equipment (LOC-DME) approach to runway 36 at Kirksville. The airplane was cleared to descend from 15,000 feet. The airplane reportedly crashed about 4 miles from the runway during the approach.
American Connection is owned and operated by Corporate Airlines, a small commuter airline based in Smyrna, Tennessee.
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From: California USA
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: An Island Province
Thanks av8boy. Whilst I do not know if the crew were using this particular chart, it does illustrate many of the typical CFIT traps when flying NPAs.
This is not to speculate on the cause of the accident or give any reflection on the crew’s performance, but accidents as sad as this often enable improvements in safety through open discussion.
The airfield appears to be uncontrolled, ATC from Kansas center, but using local QNH?
MSA is 3100 ft but there is no chart shading indicating high ground.
The DME is remote from the airfield.
Two DMEs are used in the straight-in procedure; an opportunity for error, forgetting to change over from MCM thus descending at the incorrect range. Anyone done that before?
How far is MCM from IRK?
An open descent, only one check height at 2500 ft does not facilitate a stable constant angle approach.
No table of range against altitude.
Non std approach angle 3.41 deg, not coincident with VGSI. (why, procedure design?)
Minima 1320 ¾ nm; ie MDA 1320 (400 ¾) or (356 ft above threshold alt). At MDA the aircraft is just over 1 nm from the runway, or 1 nm from the beginning of the approach lights. Thus in limiting visibility the crew would not see the lights or the runway when at MDA.
Where is the MAP, at IRK 1.1 DME, i.e. at the runway threshold? Why not at 1 nm from the threshold for S-36 approaches?
Please bear with this one observation. The IAF/descent point is at IRK 10.2, which appears to be MCM 16.9. Thus if in error, the descent was commenced at MCM 10.2 (using the wrong DME) the aircraft would be approx 2100 ft below the procedure approach path. The aircraft would be at MDA just before the FAF, 4-5 nm from the field.
This is not to speculate on the cause of the accident or give any reflection on the crew’s performance, but accidents as sad as this often enable improvements in safety through open discussion.
The airfield appears to be uncontrolled, ATC from Kansas center, but using local QNH?
MSA is 3100 ft but there is no chart shading indicating high ground.
The DME is remote from the airfield.
Two DMEs are used in the straight-in procedure; an opportunity for error, forgetting to change over from MCM thus descending at the incorrect range. Anyone done that before?
How far is MCM from IRK?
An open descent, only one check height at 2500 ft does not facilitate a stable constant angle approach.
No table of range against altitude.
Non std approach angle 3.41 deg, not coincident with VGSI. (why, procedure design?)
Minima 1320 ¾ nm; ie MDA 1320 (400 ¾) or (356 ft above threshold alt). At MDA the aircraft is just over 1 nm from the runway, or 1 nm from the beginning of the approach lights. Thus in limiting visibility the crew would not see the lights or the runway when at MDA.
Where is the MAP, at IRK 1.1 DME, i.e. at the runway threshold? Why not at 1 nm from the threshold for S-36 approaches?
Please bear with this one observation. The IAF/descent point is at IRK 10.2, which appears to be MCM 16.9. Thus if in error, the descent was commenced at MCM 10.2 (using the wrong DME) the aircraft would be approx 2100 ft below the procedure approach path. The aircraft would be at MDA just before the FAF, 4-5 nm from the field.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: North America
alf;
Excellent post - don't you think that there are too many approaches even worse than this that become so convoluted that even two crew need to be retuning/switching freq/changing course bugs etc. that they create a great opportunity for error?
Methinks an overhaul of these approaches should be conducted soon.......
Excellent post - don't you think that there are too many approaches even worse than this that become so convoluted that even two crew need to be retuning/switching freq/changing course bugs etc. that they create a great opportunity for error?
Methinks an overhaul of these approaches should be conducted soon.......
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From: Down south, USA.
Are these NOS charts still the primary or only available type of charts for US military and Coast Guard aircraft? Years ago, a USAF C-130 crashed during departure from Jackson Hole, WY. I saw the small paragraph for the SID, which was filled with tiny print and some numbers. Why can't the NOS people depict the departure routes with some black lines and arrows so there is a graphic display?
I wonder if Jeppesen charts would have been easier to use. Isn't there a Jepp LOC/DME 36 chart for Kirksville and is it printed in a more logical format?
I wonder if Jeppesen charts would have been easier to use. Isn't there a Jepp LOC/DME 36 chart for Kirksville and is it printed in a more logical format?