KAL no longer allowed to do visual approaches!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 165
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From: North America
Thank you, Choyo! You answered my question in a clear professional manner.
Autoflight - you made a statement without any prior fact to back it up, and I simply wanted the facts to confirm what you are saying.
Now, Autoflight, as for expats not liking two standards in Korea, it is Korea - leave if you don't like it; it is their country.
Autoflight - you made a statement without any prior fact to back it up, and I simply wanted the facts to confirm what you are saying.
Now, Autoflight, as for expats not liking two standards in Korea, it is Korea - leave if you don't like it; it is their country.
Last edited by lead zeppelin; 19th October 2004 at 21:08.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: Oz now!
I think all that needs to be said on this subject has been said. All I wanted to do was highlight the need for more situational awareness, and a need for KAL to understand that this needs to be taught/implanted in their pilots.
I have made several posts in the past about KAL and similar situations, but nothing seems to change. We try to pass on our ideas to the KAL pilots but they do not wish to know or take on this information.
It's not a case of trying to be one up on the locals; but a case of trying to be a part (if anonymously) of improving the safety of the airline by outing what is hushed up.
If we all at KAL could post the incidents which occur, maybe we can stop the next one from happening.
As I have said before this is not local/ethnic bashing but a desire to try and improve the safety of this airline through a third party. The result of which we would all benefit from.
I have made several posts in the past about KAL and similar situations, but nothing seems to change. We try to pass on our ideas to the KAL pilots but they do not wish to know or take on this information.
It's not a case of trying to be one up on the locals; but a case of trying to be a part (if anonymously) of improving the safety of the airline by outing what is hushed up.
If we all at KAL could post the incidents which occur, maybe we can stop the next one from happening.
As I have said before this is not local/ethnic bashing but a desire to try and improve the safety of this airline through a third party. The result of which we would all benefit from.
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 58
Likes: 10
From: Under the Bovingdon hold
The reason controllers in the US want you to do visuals is that it keeps the movement rate up. There was a long article in AW&ST a couple of months ago about slot constraint into ORD. Amongst other interesting information were the published maximum movement rates under IFR and VFR conditions.
Basically when aircraft were doing visuals the movement rates were about 5% higher.
I still can't understand some peoples distrust of visuals into US airports. Sure, if you are going into LAX on parallel approaches on a hazy day, then no way. But on a gin clear day into BWI or PIT? Keep the A/P in until you have a full picture of where everyone is then go ahead. If it keeps the ATC workload low, we all benefit. (IMHO)
Basically when aircraft were doing visuals the movement rates were about 5% higher.
I still can't understand some peoples distrust of visuals into US airports. Sure, if you are going into LAX on parallel approaches on a hazy day, then no way. But on a gin clear day into BWI or PIT? Keep the A/P in until you have a full picture of where everyone is then go ahead. If it keeps the ATC workload low, we all benefit. (IMHO)
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 627
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From: Europe
B744 was a A300-600
The Aicraft in question was a A360, VIS are not allowed in KIX, you can do them elsewhere. I dont want to say if you can do them.
seat 0A: you cannot immagine what the CASA insists in some cases. That is part of the culture and innovation in a lot of cases is blocked with the excuse safety. The land of morning calm.... the culture does not accept changes in any direction, only if ordered from the top. Who is top? The president, the chairman or God??.
Kaptin M: the F/O shouted 500 feet... stabilezed... sound like "still alive" sometimes....
The complete incident is sad at all. The higher management still does not accept the fact that there is still a problem to be solved. The saftey bonus got paid recently but there was a lot of luck involved and that can be used up one day.
NG
seat 0A: you cannot immagine what the CASA insists in some cases. That is part of the culture and innovation in a lot of cases is blocked with the excuse safety. The land of morning calm.... the culture does not accept changes in any direction, only if ordered from the top. Who is top? The president, the chairman or God??.
Kaptin M: the F/O shouted 500 feet... stabilezed... sound like "still alive" sometimes....
The complete incident is sad at all. The higher management still does not accept the fact that there is still a problem to be solved. The saftey bonus got paid recently but there was a lot of luck involved and that can be used up one day.
NG
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
From: Pacific
When (not if) they have their next accident, and perhaps lose some passengers, would it be appropriate to charge the FAA, British CAA and so on, as well as the several foreign managers working with Korean with criminal negligence, in that they allow this airline to continue to operate even though they know how bad it is? Whenever an accident is investigated, it always proves to be true that we only hear of a small percentage of the problems, and frankly what I read here is enough to make me wonder why anyone would want to see them being allowed to fly any international flights.
Aviator
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 483
Likes: 0
From: Norveg
Not at all surprised this hapened to KAL. Check this one out:
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/...rean_audit.htm
Cheers.
http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/...rean_audit.htm
Cheers.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: australia
Only a matter of time before all the holes line up!
When will KAL learn that their problem stems from recruiting national military pilots. The problem is rooted in the Korean culture of obeying commands from someone who is older, higher rank or with more experience, which is taught at an early age.
This culture is so ingrained that it conflicts with the safety culture that is needed on the flight deck. The F/O will do F/A to question the Capt. They have been trained in CRM but the Korean culture will dominate in dangerous situations. The CEO of KAL will never understand this because his korean and the majority of upper management.
When will KAL learn that their problem stems from recruiting national military pilots. The problem is rooted in the Korean culture of obeying commands from someone who is older, higher rank or with more experience, which is taught at an early age.
This culture is so ingrained that it conflicts with the safety culture that is needed on the flight deck. The F/O will do F/A to question the Capt. They have been trained in CRM but the Korean culture will dominate in dangerous situations. The CEO of KAL will never understand this because his korean and the majority of upper management.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
From: KBOS USA
Those controllers are not stupid! Once you accept that visual, you relieve that controller of the responsibility for seperation, So remember that when the F/A's are bouncing off the overhead, with the ensuing law suits.
