KAL no longer allowed to do visual approaches!
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Gosh, sorry you feel that way, Cpt CadetEntry Pilot, but then again maybe your 'handle' says it all.
Strange that others (IDunno, for example) seems to have the same ideas.
Large heavy wide-body jet transports are best served by
instrument approaches, like it or not.
Just the way it is...autocoupled or not.
Strange that others (IDunno, for example) seems to have the same ideas.
Large heavy wide-body jet transports are best served by
instrument approaches, like it or not.
Just the way it is...autocoupled or not.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
From: Flagrant Harbour
Accepting a visual approach is hazardous especially in the US. The reasoning is not because I cannot see the runway nor unfamilarity. It burdens you with maintaining visual separation with other traffic and having the track miles to touchdown drastically reduced, sometimes increasing the workload considerably. Keeping visual separation at both LA & SF airports with parallel runway operations with VFR and IFR traffic that have widely differing approach speeds is not a challenge I need after flying all night. I stand by what I said in that never declare visual to ATC, at least not until you are fully established on the ILS.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Choyo, lighten up a bit on the anti-Asian stuff would you. We all know that “stuff” happens every day, in many places. Airlines have to learn from what happened. Do you, as a member of the PPrune family want to see every pilot who makes a mess-up immediately fired?
OK that’s the philosophy, now for the actual facts. I mention this because there’s almost no actual fact in your post. Other than that an event happened and as a result NIGHT visuals at KIX only are now out. And no pilot at KAL or anywhere else that I know of would fail the sim then be sent back to the line without further action. This isn’t even a daydream. It’s malicious and totally untrue.
And, for “real men” i.e. those with brains, not just balls, night visual approaches in heavy jets, specially with a bit of “black hole” effect thrown in, are just second best. As a few posters have commented, the runway is best found at the end of a well flown ILS. And, if the vectors are even reasonably good as they are at KIX, and and configuration management is OK, there’s precious little fuel/time lost compared to the enormously better safety margin.
Your profile says you’re back in Australia. If you’ve never made a mistake that you could kick yourself over, PM me and I’ll arrange for you to come back to Asia and tell us all your secret. You’ll be famous. Write a book and I’ll buy one.
OK that’s the philosophy, now for the actual facts. I mention this because there’s almost no actual fact in your post. Other than that an event happened and as a result NIGHT visuals at KIX only are now out. And no pilot at KAL or anywhere else that I know of would fail the sim then be sent back to the line without further action. This isn’t even a daydream. It’s malicious and totally untrue.
And, for “real men” i.e. those with brains, not just balls, night visual approaches in heavy jets, specially with a bit of “black hole” effect thrown in, are just second best. As a few posters have commented, the runway is best found at the end of a well flown ILS. And, if the vectors are even reasonably good as they are at KIX, and and configuration management is OK, there’s precious little fuel/time lost compared to the enormously better safety margin.
Your profile says you’re back in Australia. If you’ve never made a mistake that you could kick yourself over, PM me and I’ll arrange for you to come back to Asia and tell us all your secret. You’ll be famous. Write a book and I’ll buy one.
Joined: Apr 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,925
Likes: 615
From: surfing, watching for sharks
7FF says:
"Keeping visual separation at both LA & SF airports with parallel runway operations with VFR and IFR traffic that have widely differing approach speeds is not a challenge I need after flying all night. I stand by what I said in that never declare visual to ATC, at least not until you are fully established on the ILS"
And I must agree with him. How many times I have looked and seen a conga line of aircraft on final for both the North and South complexes at LAX and then try to figure out WHICH 737 I'm following. Nothing wrong with a visual approach in that I have no problem getting down and aligned and all that. The danger of a visual approach to a busy airport is losing the seperation services that come with the full blown instrument approach.
"Keeping visual separation at both LA & SF airports with parallel runway operations with VFR and IFR traffic that have widely differing approach speeds is not a challenge I need after flying all night. I stand by what I said in that never declare visual to ATC, at least not until you are fully established on the ILS"
And I must agree with him. How many times I have looked and seen a conga line of aircraft on final for both the North and South complexes at LAX and then try to figure out WHICH 737 I'm following. Nothing wrong with a visual approach in that I have no problem getting down and aligned and all that. The danger of a visual approach to a busy airport is losing the seperation services that come with the full blown instrument approach.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: Oz now!
Elektra,
I'm not anti-asian, or anti any demographic group. However, with incidents, and from the word of one QA Captain very severe incidents, on the rise amongst the local pilots; are you one who also wishes to sweep them under the carpet.
I have no intention of writing a book, but I would like to see KAL wake up and see the big picture. There are too many departments where these incidents end up disappearing into.
It took a letter from Capt. G to instigate the wake up call, so it's not only I whom is concerned. Almost every expat Captain I know of is concerned.
Do you keep your shoes on for takeoff and landing when passengering with a local crew?
I'm not anti-asian, or anti any demographic group. However, with incidents, and from the word of one QA Captain very severe incidents, on the rise amongst the local pilots; are you one who also wishes to sweep them under the carpet.
I have no intention of writing a book, but I would like to see KAL wake up and see the big picture. There are too many departments where these incidents end up disappearing into.
It took a letter from Capt. G to instigate the wake up call, so it's not only I whom is concerned. Almost every expat Captain I know of is concerned.
Do you keep your shoes on for takeoff and landing when passengering with a local crew?
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,777
Likes: 9
From: Blighty
Visual approached at KIX are relatively common on 06 when approaching from the south. I gather it's done to keep you away from the city and stop your noise nuisance. Although it's a fairly straitforward approach in daylight, at night you are flying a right hand pattern probably joining downwind over the sea with no lights between you and the runway. (For those who don't know, KIX is built on recalimed land and is a bit like an aircraft carrier). Descending into a 'black hole' on a night visual circiut is a well known problem area (think Gulf Air A320 at BAH in the late 90s). If this is a problem, perhaps Air Traffic at KIX should be reviewing their procedures as well as KAL (hats off to them for being pro-active on safety BTW) before more lives are sacrificed for noise environmental reasons.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: Oz now!
With all due respect we are pilots. A night visual approach is a procedure which all pilots should be able to accomplish. Keep the autopilot and autothrottle coupled until turning finals. A VNAV profile giving you a virtual glideslope can be constructed, and on right base at Kansai you always have the airport and runway lights in sight. A heavy aircraft such as a B747-400 is no different to any other aircraft from a flight deck perspective, just remember the inertia and momentum of the aircraft that's all. What's the big fuss about, I am no way an ace of the base but come on guys a night visual circuit when correctly briefed and with raw data back up is no big deal, just fly the aircraft. My criticism is why did this KAL captain allow himself to descend to 300 feet on base leg whilst still over the sea. It is not the fault of the procedure being too complicated it is a fault of lack of any kind of situational awareness. To then freeze on the controls when he realised his predicament is gross negligence. That is my beef, then to do it again in the simulator, and still be released to the line is criminal. Do you want yourself or your family to be his passenger, that is what you have to ask yourself.
Guys we're pilots flying sophisticated aircraft which we can make to sit up and beg, due to the wealth of information available.
I agree in the states it is a different ballgame, cleared for a visual approach and cleared to land removes the rquirement on ATC to be responsible for traffic seperation; something to be very cautious about but a different topic.
Guys we're pilots flying sophisticated aircraft which we can make to sit up and beg, due to the wealth of information available.
I agree in the states it is a different ballgame, cleared for a visual approach and cleared to land removes the rquirement on ATC to be responsible for traffic seperation; something to be very cautious about but a different topic.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,025
Likes: 1
From: The Global village
There is something that hasn't been said yet, that I feel SHOULD be said.
A visual circuit is a BASIC flying skill - the fact that was at night makes little difference to a pilot who has been checked out as a 747 (or any other aircraft) Captain.
As choyo states
....this is another basic, safe, aircraft/flight management skill that one would expect a B744 (or any other aircraft) Captain possessed.
I would add to this that regardless of it being a "visual", ALL available resources should be utilised, and that includes having at least one side - the PF's or the PNF's - display the ILS, to monitor tracking (vert & horiz) when approaching finals.
So wtf WAS the First Officer doing all this time?
Where was the back-up, the monitoring, the callouts?
I assume KA has a "500' - stabilised" call?
Did the F/O also not realise that at 500' the aircraft was NOT established in a position from which a SAFE landing was ASSURED??!!
Errors in judgement occur, but most airlines have many "checks and balances" built into their SOP's to catch them before they can bight back.
Is there a systemic problem in KAL that prevents these "checks and balances" from working as they should?
A visual circuit is a BASIC flying skill - the fact that was at night makes little difference to a pilot who has been checked out as a 747 (or any other aircraft) Captain.
As choyo states
Keep the autopilot and autothrottle coupled until turning finals.
I would add to this that regardless of it being a "visual", ALL available resources should be utilised, and that includes having at least one side - the PF's or the PNF's - display the ILS, to monitor tracking (vert & horiz) when approaching finals.
So wtf WAS the First Officer doing all this time?
Where was the back-up, the monitoring, the callouts?
I assume KA has a "500' - stabilised" call?
Did the F/O also not realise that at 500' the aircraft was NOT established in a position from which a SAFE landing was ASSURED??!!
Errors in judgement occur, but most airlines have many "checks and balances" built into their SOP's to catch them before they can bight back.
Is there a systemic problem in KAL that prevents these "checks and balances" from working as they should?
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere hot, hot, hot
I'm with Choyo and Kaptin M on this one.
If you can't handle a visual landing, which if I remember correctly is about lesson 5 of the PPL then you have no place in the seat of an airliner.
Yes I absolutely take on board the various issues of traffic and responsibility for seperation and erosion of safety margin versus a full instrument approach, but if I'm properly briefed, have a PNF who's got his or her brain in gear and the weather's good and the traffic's light then I'm happy to to take a visual. It keeps your senses sharp and one day when the ILS goes tits up you'll need those senses.
If you can't handle a visual landing, which if I remember correctly is about lesson 5 of the PPL then you have no place in the seat of an airliner.
Yes I absolutely take on board the various issues of traffic and responsibility for seperation and erosion of safety margin versus a full instrument approach, but if I'm properly briefed, have a PNF who's got his or her brain in gear and the weather's good and the traffic's light then I'm happy to to take a visual. It keeps your senses sharp and one day when the ILS goes tits up you'll need those senses.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 246
Likes: 15
From: phoenix, AZ, USA
No one said what the nationality of the captain was. What the post implied was there are 2 different standards for pilots based on local or expat. As someone who has been there and knows people affected by that type of thinking I have to agree. There are 2 different standards.
Also, for those who will not fly a visual approach, don't ever try to get into DCA landing south expecting an instrument approach if its better than 3000 and 5. You'll either land on the wrong runway or fly into a prohibited area.
LAX I can sympathize with but you always have the option to extend downwind. You'll just get passed by me and all the SWA guys doing 210 to JETSA. In fact I would rather you do the full ILS. I've seen more than one Pacific Rim Carrier blow through the 24R localizer and wander over to the south complex when they failed to make a turn on a 10 mile final.
Also, for those who will not fly a visual approach, don't ever try to get into DCA landing south expecting an instrument approach if its better than 3000 and 5. You'll either land on the wrong runway or fly into a prohibited area.
LAX I can sympathize with but you always have the option to extend downwind. You'll just get passed by me and all the SWA guys doing 210 to JETSA. In fact I would rather you do the full ILS. I've seen more than one Pacific Rim Carrier blow through the 24R localizer and wander over to the south complex when they failed to make a turn on a 10 mile final.
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
From: Oz now!
Yes both crew members were Korean. If it had been an expat captain then the f/o would have probably been shouting at him (though I hope that a western expat wouldn't put himself in that situation), but a local captain no way will he consider any mode of criticism or intervention.