KAL no longer allowed to do visual approaches!
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Joined: Mar 2004
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From: Oz now!
KAL no longer allowed to do visual approaches!
I understand that a KAL B774 nearly speared in to the sea off Kansai recently whilst attempting a night visual approach in good weather. Same captain went for retraining and did the same thing in the sim...back on line. As a result KAL crews are not allowed to conduct visual approaches.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 158
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From: Far Away
When,is/are someone/some authority,going to ever to take action,on these events??
IF,and I state IF,the said Capt,repeated,the event in the sim,why oh why,is he still on line???
Im astonished,and if the fare paying public knew,what was going on................
So,we sit,and wait,for the next KAL,"event".Sounds like it wont be long.
Amazing.QB
IF,and I state IF,the said Capt,repeated,the event in the sim,why oh why,is he still on line???
Im astonished,and if the fare paying public knew,what was going on................
So,we sit,and wait,for the next KAL,"event".Sounds like it wont be long.
Amazing.QB
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,880
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From: Dublin, Ireland
Amazing; how does one get to be a 744 captain (with no doubt a few thousand hours of military training before that) and not be able to make a visual approach? Of all the airports KE serves, KIX must be among the most straightforward, with top class navaids and PAPIs. Doesn't give one confidence about landing at other airports.
What happens in situations where autoland can't be used?
What happens in situations where autoland can't be used?
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,369
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From: UK.
akerosid,
A visual approach is one in which the vertical and horizontal profiles are flown without reference to electronic aids such as ILS or VOR/DME although, especially in a big jet, it would always be wise to have some reference of distance to touchdown, esp at night. That's as opposed to an approach in which the profile is followed by reference to, e.g. an ILS which gives a continual 'on track'/'on profile' indication.
An autoland may or may not be executed following an instrument approach.
Going downwind visual at Kansai for RW24 in the dark, one is over water and loses sight of the runway so the a/c position and rate of descent requires close monitoring until the threshold comes into sight on the final turn.
A visual approach is one in which the vertical and horizontal profiles are flown without reference to electronic aids such as ILS or VOR/DME although, especially in a big jet, it would always be wise to have some reference of distance to touchdown, esp at night. That's as opposed to an approach in which the profile is followed by reference to, e.g. an ILS which gives a continual 'on track'/'on profile' indication.
An autoland may or may not be executed following an instrument approach.
Going downwind visual at Kansai for RW24 in the dark, one is over water and loses sight of the runway so the a/c position and rate of descent requires close monitoring until the threshold comes into sight on the final turn.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 348
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From: Canada
Akerosid, I see by your profile you say you are a solicitor.
Can you tell me, are you also a pilot and have you actually done a night visual into Kansai, so that you feel you are in a position to comment that KIX "must be among the most straightforward" etc ???
Can you tell me, are you also a pilot and have you actually done a night visual into Kansai, so that you feel you are in a position to comment that KIX "must be among the most straightforward" etc ???
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 142
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From: europe
Iīve done it a few times in rhs A340 and lhs MD11 in real life in the dark.
The approach is as straight forward as a visual can be!
Thereīs nothing in the bay you can hit, no noise restricted areas or weird profiles.
All you have to do is hold the heading and altitude, take the time, make the turn, donīt let the nose drop etc., etc. - and have a guy/gal next to you watching the altitude and backing you up...
But itīs still possible to mess up any approach, which does after all happen to all of us.
Just gotta know when and how to abort.
If you donīt do the go-around because youīre gonna lose your face - THEN do you have a problem.
Just my 2 cents - have no idea what the KAL-folks did.
The approach is as straight forward as a visual can be!
Thereīs nothing in the bay you can hit, no noise restricted areas or weird profiles.
All you have to do is hold the heading and altitude, take the time, make the turn, donīt let the nose drop etc., etc. - and have a guy/gal next to you watching the altitude and backing you up...
But itīs still possible to mess up any approach, which does after all happen to all of us.
Just gotta know when and how to abort.
If you donīt do the go-around because youīre gonna lose your face - THEN do you have a problem.
Just my 2 cents - have no idea what the KAL-folks did.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 471
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From: Mid Atlantic
Visual approaches.
Why do 'em?
Exactly what is the incentive to do a visual approah, at night, in a heavy jet? Is it to prove something? To save a few minutes? To save the lazy ATC'er having to vector you?
WTF???
I find that US ATC in particular (at certain airports e.g. BWI) almost INSIST on visual approaches. Into sun on hazy afternoons in particular!
BOLLOX!!
Cut this crap out.
Vectors to ILS please.
Thank you.
Why do 'em?
Exactly what is the incentive to do a visual approah, at night, in a heavy jet? Is it to prove something? To save a few minutes? To save the lazy ATC'er having to vector you?
WTF???
I find that US ATC in particular (at certain airports e.g. BWI) almost INSIST on visual approaches. Into sun on hazy afternoons in particular!
BOLLOX!!
Cut this crap out.
Vectors to ILS please.
Thank you.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
Indeed, why do 'em.
The landing runway can usually be found at the end of a properly flown instrument approach...fact.
Visuals are fine for some (altho a few folks have landed at the wrong airport...fact), so normally in line flying, nearly always opted for the instrument approach...and easier on the co-pilot as well.
Let ATC work for you...not the other way around, especially at night.
The landing runway can usually be found at the end of a properly flown instrument approach...fact.
Visuals are fine for some (altho a few folks have landed at the wrong airport...fact), so normally in line flying, nearly always opted for the instrument approach...and easier on the co-pilot as well.
Let ATC work for you...not the other way around, especially at night.
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 435
Likes: 30
From: UK
I agree wholeheartedly with the comments about "compulsory" visual approaches in the USA. Makes life very easy for ATC and dumps us groping around trying to remain in visual contact with the 5 ahead looking into the setting sun through the polution (eg LAX) And just try telling them that you are NOT visual!
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: HKG
If the runway is not clearly visible it would be unprofessional to ask for or accept a visual when carrying passengers. However, if its cavok and clearly visible, it certainly would be good practice for a pilot to do a visual approach monitored by his crew. One day you won't have all the instrument aids serviceable and that practice will stand you in good stead.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 144
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From: England
411A,
Generally I agree with you, but I fly in to my home base up to 3 times a day. It is well defined, with a coastline and other good visual features. It is actually easier (and smoother for the pax) to just curve it in visually rather than take several vectors for a long protracted ILS. It certainly is easier when you do it very regularly!
But no way would I take a visual if I was uncertain about anything. For one, I can't be bothered with the extra effort.
Generally I agree with you, but I fly in to my home base up to 3 times a day. It is well defined, with a coastline and other good visual features. It is actually easier (and smoother for the pax) to just curve it in visually rather than take several vectors for a long protracted ILS. It certainly is easier when you do it very regularly!
But no way would I take a visual if I was uncertain about anything. For one, I can't be bothered with the extra effort.
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 368
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From: Mk. 1 desk at present...
Kingfisher:
One Captain screws-up - no problem.
One Captain screws-up, does it again in sim, and is sent straight back on line anyway - big *organisational* problem. IMHO.
R1
OK lets get this straight. ONE Captain cant do visual circuits properly so no-one is allowed to?
One Captain screws-up, does it again in sim, and is sent straight back on line anyway - big *organisational* problem. IMHO.
R1
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 269
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From: Embedded in a pocket of resistance
Completely agree with you Stu Bigzorst! Sometimes a visual can save a lot of time (and money) but unless there is no significant bennefit I think itīs a useless increase in workload. Nevertheless I think airline pilots should be able to perform a visual approach as it could be necessary in an extreme emergency situation.
Last edited by Robert Vesco; 17th October 2004 at 13:05.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,924
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From: UK
In the UK, there used to be 'An Approach Maintaining VMC and own Separation', but it was 'removed' some years ago. It was, if memory serves, only available at Pilot's request (ATC could not offer), during daylight hours and, as the title suggests, Pilots flying such approaches were responsible for their own separation from all other traffic. (As opposed to a 'Visual Approach', to which Standard IFR Separation still applies, albeit often achieved by ATC using 'Reduced separation in the vicinity of an Airfield'.)
Edit: I see that Robert Vesco has subsequently edited his post to remove the query that prompted my reply!
Edit: I see that Robert Vesco has subsequently edited his post to remove the query that prompted my reply!
Last edited by spekesoftly; 17th October 2004 at 13:39.
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: UK
All this talk about "You should never have to do one". A circling approach is a modified visual approach and is a necessity for many destinations not served by an ILS at every concievable end of each runway.
411A you really are in a different world fella! Then again, you must find all those autocoupled approaches you do onto (LR) runways give you a basis for such ridiculous, unrepresentative, opinionated twaddle.
I'm gonna have to stick you in my ignore list again..........
411A you really are in a different world fella! Then again, you must find all those autocoupled approaches you do onto (LR) runways give you a basis for such ridiculous, unrepresentative, opinionated twaddle.
I'm gonna have to stick you in my ignore list again..........