Trouble Brewing at CitiExpress
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Trouble Brewing at CitiExpress
Following recent rejection by an overwhelming majority of 2.5% pay offer (first pay rise in 4 years for many) CX management are trying to reassert their authority by bully boy tactics.
Having lost the goodwill of his workforce latest antic of TDF is the suspension of a Captain for refusing to go into discretion to complete a duty.
Anyone else come across this?
As for CX.................Obviously situation normal.
Having lost the goodwill of his workforce latest antic of TDF is the suspension of a Captain for refusing to go into discretion to complete a duty.
Anyone else come across this?
As for CX.................Obviously situation normal.
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Suspension for refusing to go into discretion.............................the CAA will be pleased about that one
. No member of crew can simply 'refuse' to extend duty - they would have to be 'unfit' to operate safely, and that is the captain's call. This also applies to operations INSIDE FDP. This is why 'discretion' after reduced rest is NOT a good idea. Any company is entitled to a REASONABLE expectation that a properly rested crew will be able to extend. When I have 'been there' I have always made it clear to my crew that they are expected to extend UNLESS THEY ARE UNFIT TO DO SO - and that is obviously something any company will want to examine later.How the CAA see it will depend on the circumstances. In my former experience there was a 'story' about a CP who sent a telex to an outstation ordering the captain to extend. That they SHOULD leap onto!
Good luck to the captain. Suggest he reads this?
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Sorry BOAC but that is absolute rubbish.
It is commanders discretion, not ops, fleet captain or anyone else. They may disagree with the decision but the authority is solely in the hands of the commander on the day.
It is commanders discretion, not ops, fleet captain or anyone else. They may disagree with the decision but the authority is solely in the hands of the commander on the day.
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BOAC
Whilst that may have been the case when flying boats were around you are wrong now.
Your comments re not fit etc are correct but no-one can force you to extend your duty past Scheme limits and you can "refuse".
Indeed in BA if you chose to limit your duty to Industrial (BLR's), as the cabin crew do every time, then you would be within your rights. Sure you would be in for tea and biscuits but along with your friendly BALPA rep they couldn't touch you.
This is even more important now as they are regularly rostering Scarebus to max FTL limits with terminal changes etc. You are looking at discretion before your first push of the day.
Discretion is just that. Yours.
1.Tired or
2.just can't be bothered or
3.you want to make a point.
In BA 1 is possible 2 improbable and 3 becoming more common.
However the right to refuse is just that.
Good luck to the guy involved. I hope he's a BALPA member and not a "I've given myself a 1% rise" merchant.
If you are a member Dental Flosse has got a problem.
I bet he hasn't done it to a BA secondee. He wouldn't dare.
NN
Whilst that may have been the case when flying boats were around you are wrong now.
Your comments re not fit etc are correct but no-one can force you to extend your duty past Scheme limits and you can "refuse".
Indeed in BA if you chose to limit your duty to Industrial (BLR's), as the cabin crew do every time, then you would be within your rights. Sure you would be in for tea and biscuits but along with your friendly BALPA rep they couldn't touch you.
This is even more important now as they are regularly rostering Scarebus to max FTL limits with terminal changes etc. You are looking at discretion before your first push of the day.
Discretion is just that. Yours.
1.Tired or
2.just can't be bothered or
3.you want to make a point.
In BA 1 is possible 2 improbable and 3 becoming more common.
However the right to refuse is just that.
Good luck to the guy involved. I hope he's a BALPA member and not a "I've given myself a 1% rise" merchant.
If you are a member Dental Flosse has got a problem.
I bet he hasn't done it to a BA secondee. He wouldn't dare.
NN
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I do not think either of you have read my post properly. I am trying to help the captain. I would have hoped you can both understand that.
N_N, just be very careful with your reasons 2 and 3, or I think your wonderful career (and pension prospects
) will be threatened. I think you fail to see that in the days of Imperial Airways the captain WAS a respected person, and a 'refusal' would not have been questioned. Now with the help of certain parts of our community our status has been somewhat reduced, and covering of the nether regions becomes vital. The issue of BA LHR cabin crew and FDP etc is so bizarre as to render sensible discussion of the subject pointless, and illustrates this point precisely. It is the BA pilot force that have 'accepted' it, too, remember.
PS: N_N, the closest I have been to flying boats is a Lake Buccaneer
N_N, just be very careful with your reasons 2 and 3, or I think your wonderful career (and pension prospects
) will be threatened. I think you fail to see that in the days of Imperial Airways the captain WAS a respected person, and a 'refusal' would not have been questioned. Now with the help of certain parts of our community our status has been somewhat reduced, and covering of the nether regions becomes vital. The issue of BA LHR cabin crew and FDP etc is so bizarre as to render sensible discussion of the subject pointless, and illustrates this point precisely. It is the BA pilot force that have 'accepted' it, too, remember.PS: N_N, the closest I have been to flying boats is a Lake Buccaneer
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We need more information. Broadly I support BOAC's point that the word refuse is likely to get you in trouble with an employer because it smacks of unreasonable behaviour and that is tied up in basic expectations of a contract.
To decline to extend a duty because it is not safe is very different and should be supported by the CAA and BALPA.
More Info anyone? Rgds BP
To decline to extend a duty because it is not safe is very different and should be supported by the CAA and BALPA.
More Info anyone? Rgds BP
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BOAC
Sorry old bean but I did read your post very carefully.
You say you are probably over simplifying the issue - on the contrary you are over complicating it.
The whole point with reference to the second quote above is that you don't have to give anybody any reason for refusing, just say politely.......' I'm sorry but I am not prepared to exercise my discretion to extend the duty'
If they persist just ask them to show you where is says you have to explain your decision - quite simply you don't!
You may read this as an unreasonable attitude, but believe me I have worked for a company which rapidly lost me my health as a result of appalling rostering. We have precious few weapons with which to defend ourselves as it is, so I feel very strongly about defending the few rights we still have.
Put it this way if Balpa can't kick this quickly into touch I ask you what can they defend?
It is, no doubt, probably over-simplifying the issue here, but a captain cannot 'refuse' to operate into discretion.
N_N, just be very careful with your reasons 2 and 3, or I think your wonderful career (and pension prospects ) will be threatened.
You say you are probably over simplifying the issue - on the contrary you are over complicating it.
The whole point with reference to the second quote above is that you don't have to give anybody any reason for refusing, just say politely.......' I'm sorry but I am not prepared to exercise my discretion to extend the duty'
If they persist just ask them to show you where is says you have to explain your decision - quite simply you don't!
You may read this as an unreasonable attitude, but believe me I have worked for a company which rapidly lost me my health as a result of appalling rostering. We have precious few weapons with which to defend ourselves as it is, so I feel very strongly about defending the few rights we still have.
Put it this way if Balpa can't kick this quickly into touch I ask you what can they defend?
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BOAC
I have read your post and fully undertand it. However I disagree with it.
Obviously if you choose not to go into discretion then the easiest way is to cite fatigue/not fit etc etc.
However my point is I can refuse to go into discretion for whatever reason and there is sweet FA they can do about it.
It happened recently on an Airbus. The captain was rostered to max scheme and went over before first push.He informed the company he would not be operating sector 3 about 5 hours before he was due to. The service was cancelled. He was invited for a chat which came to nothing and BA have been informed by BALPA in no uncertain terms as to what will happen if anyone gets penalised for this sort of action.
The erosion of our status (particularly in BA) is evident.
We do generally keep the show on the road unlike our work-shy collegues down the back, but occasionally we remind the company just who is in charge.
NN
I have read your post and fully undertand it. However I disagree with it.
Obviously if you choose not to go into discretion then the easiest way is to cite fatigue/not fit etc etc.
However my point is I can refuse to go into discretion for whatever reason and there is sweet FA they can do about it.
It happened recently on an Airbus. The captain was rostered to max scheme and went over before first push.He informed the company he would not be operating sector 3 about 5 hours before he was due to. The service was cancelled. He was invited for a chat which came to nothing and BA have been informed by BALPA in no uncertain terms as to what will happen if anyone gets penalised for this sort of action.
The erosion of our status (particularly in BA) is evident.
We do generally keep the show on the road unlike our work-shy collegues down the back, but occasionally we remind the company just who is in charge.
NN
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Just to put this whole thing in perspective:
I, and a number of my colleagues have, on more than one occasion, declined to exercise commander's discretion to extend an FDP. I have never been so much as questioned over my decision. BACX is a very professional outfit, and I would expect no less.
Had I been asked for my reasons, I hope I would have some valid points to make. Neither accepting, nor refusing, discretion should be taken lightly!
I have however overheard some captains (perhaps like N_N) who have said words to the effect of "I don't 'do' discretion"
I have no knowledge whatever of this incident, however if it falls into the second category, which almost amounts to a unilateral 'work to rule', then in my humble opinion the individual would deserve a reality check. I can't imagine any responsible manager in any airline accepting such a situation, nor many of the inconvenienced passengers!
As I say, I may be barking up the wrong tree, but this isn't the first time discretion has been declined in BACX, so I wonder why this one is different?
If it WAS a unilateral work to rule, the guy just has to wind his neck in, and change his story!
N_N
If I am able to accept or decline commander's discretion, does that give you any clues as to whether I hold a licence?
Why do you swear so much?
Do let us know what LCG says when you turn down discretion saying you "want to make a point"
I, and a number of my colleagues have, on more than one occasion, declined to exercise commander's discretion to extend an FDP. I have never been so much as questioned over my decision. BACX is a very professional outfit, and I would expect no less.
Had I been asked for my reasons, I hope I would have some valid points to make. Neither accepting, nor refusing, discretion should be taken lightly!
I have however overheard some captains (perhaps like N_N) who have said words to the effect of "I don't 'do' discretion"
I have no knowledge whatever of this incident, however if it falls into the second category, which almost amounts to a unilateral 'work to rule', then in my humble opinion the individual would deserve a reality check. I can't imagine any responsible manager in any airline accepting such a situation, nor many of the inconvenienced passengers!
As I say, I may be barking up the wrong tree, but this isn't the first time discretion has been declined in BACX, so I wonder why this one is different?
If it WAS a unilateral work to rule, the guy just has to wind his neck in, and change his story!
N_N
If I am able to accept or decline commander's discretion, does that give you any clues as to whether I hold a licence?
Why do you swear so much?
Do let us know what LCG says when you turn down discretion saying you "want to make a point"
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I'm 100% in agreement with "BOAC" on this one. The reason for having this clause in the regulations is simply to put into place a structure to prevent companies from forcing fatigued or unfit crews to fly or work unreasonably long hours. It is also there to permit duties and rotations to be completed, following unforeseen delays or extensions. The spirit of the rule needs to be applied and anyone using it to rush home to make the party in time is simply abusing the system. In my airline, anyone refusing to extend under unforeseeable circumstances is given the opportunity to consult the company doctor. Most of our crews do appear to interpret the rule this way however, I have noticed on occasion that our British crews do appear to do a lot more complaining with regards duty extension than anyone else.
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Actually DEOne, as far as "anyone using it to rush home to make the party in time" is concerned, I'm sure important social engagements are accepted as a valid reason for refusing discretion.
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I have however overheard some captains (perhaps like N_N)
As it happens I have never refused to go into discretion and have endevoured to keep the operation going in contrast to the fodder I have to put up with behind the flight deck door.
I'm not sure about your licence position and couldn't really care.
LCG can say what he wants. We have a contract and industrial muscle to back it up.
Also if you have the ability to process information after your eyes have seen it you will recall that an Airbus captain did just that. He refused discretion 5 hours or so before he got near it. To make a point about stupid rostering.
As for swearing if you want I can send you a personal message without the.
Now run along and let the big boys discuss this sensibly, theres a good boy.
NN
Edit: N_N - you have not, apparently, bothered to read PPRuNe's new edict on swearing. We don't allow it anymore - disguised or otherwise. You can send any amount of PM's with as much swearing as you like. But please refrain from using it on PPRuNe.
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n my airline, anyone refusing to extend under unforeseeable circumstances is given the opportunity to consult the company doctor.
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It seems to me that all anyone has to do is to say "I am not exercising my discretion to extend a duty as I am feeling tired".....and that is then the end of the matter. That is a completely subjective statement and it is a commander's right to be the sole arbiter of that. What Mr DF and his ilk are doing is to introduce an objective test which puts anyone considering refusing to go into discretion in fear of a disciplinary if he refuses.
With Companies like CX fighting losing battles to sqeeze quarts into pint pots as pilots vote with their feet and rostering become more creative in extracting the legal (?) maximum out of those who remain this sort of pressure is a logical consequence of a regime which has lost the respect of its workforce.
It is mercifully a long time since there has been an incident involving major loss of life in UK airspace. The public have become complacent and take forgranted the very highest standards of safety. Sooner or later there will be an incident. That is inevitable. CX is not alone in trying to extract more and more out of its pilots but fatigue is becoming more and more part of life and those who are trying to push the boundaries forward in order to secure their performance bonuses ought to do some serious soul searching...................
Balpa had better jump on this PDQ................
With Companies like CX fighting losing battles to sqeeze quarts into pint pots as pilots vote with their feet and rostering become more creative in extracting the legal (?) maximum out of those who remain this sort of pressure is a logical consequence of a regime which has lost the respect of its workforce.
It is mercifully a long time since there has been an incident involving major loss of life in UK airspace. The public have become complacent and take forgranted the very highest standards of safety. Sooner or later there will be an incident. That is inevitable. CX is not alone in trying to extract more and more out of its pilots but fatigue is becoming more and more part of life and those who are trying to push the boundaries forward in order to secure their performance bonuses ought to do some serious soul searching...................
Balpa had better jump on this PDQ................
Last edited by Sheikh Zabik; 29th Sep 2004 at 10:27.
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Is N_N an example of a Captain - presumably he is one - these days. Such arrogance from one who swears as well.
You should learn a thing or two, or should have, as the case may be, that you drive a BIG company's aeroplane. They have a job as it is to survive in the current climate as do all airlines but they need people like you like they need a hole in the head.
Discretion is discretion. "The freedom and authority to act as one see's fit" just as MJ points out in CAP 371. But I do not believe that it means a commander should slap the face of an employer with it. To make life difficult, if that is all you are out to do. If you are dog tired and feel that it is unsafe to operate your aeroplane no one can blame you. But if you are exercising 'your right' to prove a point you might just as well go tell the CP to stuff his job - but, naturally, you wouldn't dare. I am not, of course, saying that you do, simply taking up your point that you could do it. After all, you did say "but occasionally we remind the company just who is in charge."
I should control your snide remarks, which are directed at three on here who work for the same company you do. Don't worry, you won't have to operate with them.
But......you never know who might be listening.
Oh btw! Be THANKFUL for the "fodder" at the back!? How very very
You should learn a thing or two, or should have, as the case may be, that you drive a BIG company's aeroplane. They have a job as it is to survive in the current climate as do all airlines but they need people like you like they need a hole in the head.
Discretion is discretion. "The freedom and authority to act as one see's fit" just as MJ points out in CAP 371. But I do not believe that it means a commander should slap the face of an employer with it. To make life difficult, if that is all you are out to do. If you are dog tired and feel that it is unsafe to operate your aeroplane no one can blame you. But if you are exercising 'your right' to prove a point you might just as well go tell the CP to stuff his job - but, naturally, you wouldn't dare. I am not, of course, saying that you do, simply taking up your point that you could do it. After all, you did say "but occasionally we remind the company just who is in charge."
I should control your snide remarks, which are directed at three on here who work for the same company you do. Don't worry, you won't have to operate with them.
But......you never know who might be listening.
Oh btw! Be THANKFUL for the "fodder" at the back!? How very very
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There is little point in (my) continuing this discussion since yet again N_N has proved unable to conduct a discussion in 'normal' ways.
Sheikh - I just hope 'your' captain thinks this through carefully. Management have teeth and BALPA are noted for occasionally only supporting cases that they think will succeed. Ask the DanAirs who got 5 figure settlements from BA when BALPA said there was no case, if you are in doubt.
- for MJ - you may be thinking about BA LGW and the TLV out-and-back. The CAA said 30% DRs or more and it has to change. It did . I have a letter which was 'supported' by the CAA declaring that discretion is to be considered a normal and expected part of FDP. Don't have it to hand, sadly. It is always how the company 'expect' it that is the rub.
- let's hope, eh?
Sheikh - I just hope 'your' captain thinks this through carefully. Management have teeth and BALPA are noted for occasionally only supporting cases that they think will succeed. Ask the DanAirs who got 5 figure settlements from BA when BALPA said there was no case, if you are in doubt.
to change a route schedule drastically (enforced by CAA) as the flights were always going into discretion, i.e. could be seen to be "planned" to operate into discretion.
. I have a letter which was 'supported' by the CAA declaring that discretion is to be considered a normal and expected part of FDP. Don't have it to hand, sadly. It is always how the company 'expect' it that is the rub.
let the big boys discuss this sensibly
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It's very interesting that in all these messages there's barely a mention of the most important element in the whole debate - the passenger. It's he or she that pays our wages - no-one else! Doesn't anybody realise this. or is everyone so narrow-minded!
Everything is me, me, me, me......
Everything is me, me, me, me......