Trouble Brewing at CitiExpress
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I just cannot believe I am reading some of this! Here is a damsel in distress. Some folks are trying to offer sensible advice, while the Nigels seem to want her to know what she is mising by not having "BA bidline rules" whatever they are.
Why don't all the CityExpress folk send Private Messages to this 'behind' guy (who obviously has VAST experience of airlines) and ask him to tell them which bit of their agreement this BLR is in? Oh, and while doing it, perhaps letting this TDLF whoever he/she is, know that these rules CANNOT be broken.
I watch in wonder!
Why don't all the CityExpress folk send Private Messages to this 'behind' guy (who obviously has VAST experience of airlines) and ask him to tell them which bit of their agreement this BLR is in? Oh, and while doing it, perhaps letting this TDLF whoever he/she is, know that these rules CANNOT be broken.
I watch in wonder!
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I have read this post from start to finish. Some of the views expressed have been frankly appalling. There seems to be a section that feel discretion should be used whenever it is needed, and another section that feel using it as an "industrial tool" is acceptable. Both of these views do not reflect those of a professional pilot.
To my mind it is all very simple and the crux of the matter lies in the words "may" and "safely". If I am faced with a situation where discretion becomes an issue I will assess whether, in my opinion and taking note of the circumstances of other members of the crew, it is safe to do so. If it is then the use of discretion is appropriate, if not then we will stay where we are. It is that simple. That is your duty as the Commander of an aircraft.
If you have a management team that thinks otherwise and puts pressure on you to go into discretion, stand firm. It happened once in the company I work for and the Captain remained resolute. They were met at the aircraft steps by BALPA reps on their return and ultimately the manager concerned was forced to apologise. I have not heard of such behavoir recurring.
If this particular Captain decided not to use her discretion to extend the Duty, then I am sure she had very good reasons for doing so and I am equally sure that if she is a member of BALPA then she has no worries. On the other hand, if she was doing this to make a point then that is a reflection on how this management has lost the goodwill of the pilots. I won't condone it, but I can understand it.
I would suggest that if the company you work for routinely puts pressure on Commanders to excercise their discretion then it is time to find another employer.
To my mind it is all very simple and the crux of the matter lies in the words "may" and "safely". If I am faced with a situation where discretion becomes an issue I will assess whether, in my opinion and taking note of the circumstances of other members of the crew, it is safe to do so. If it is then the use of discretion is appropriate, if not then we will stay where we are. It is that simple. That is your duty as the Commander of an aircraft.
If you have a management team that thinks otherwise and puts pressure on you to go into discretion, stand firm. It happened once in the company I work for and the Captain remained resolute. They were met at the aircraft steps by BALPA reps on their return and ultimately the manager concerned was forced to apologise. I have not heard of such behavoir recurring.
If this particular Captain decided not to use her discretion to extend the Duty, then I am sure she had very good reasons for doing so and I am equally sure that if she is a member of BALPA then she has no worries. On the other hand, if she was doing this to make a point then that is a reflection on how this management has lost the goodwill of the pilots. I won't condone it, but I can understand it.
I would suggest that if the company you work for routinely puts pressure on Commanders to excercise their discretion then it is time to find another employer.
Last edited by Sadly Cynical; 1st Oct 2004 at 14:00.
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In my experience, BACX do not put pressure on pilots (routinely or otherwise) to exercise discretion. BACX is a very professional outfit. The management are sophisticated enough to realise that 'discretion' is in the personal gift of their senior manager on scene (the Captain!) This is not MOL we are dealing with!
However, if the hypothetical situation described on this thread were to occur, the question wouldn't be about 'discretion' AT ALL!
It may however, be about an individual, with an 'axe to grind', making a premature (and expensive) decision, and subsequently finding themselves with a little explaining to do!
If it's an 'honest' mistake, then - No big deal!
Apologies to the travelling customers on the day though.
However, if the hypothetical situation described on this thread were to occur, the question wouldn't be about 'discretion' AT ALL!
It may however, be about an individual, with an 'axe to grind', making a premature (and expensive) decision, and subsequently finding themselves with a little explaining to do!
If it's an 'honest' mistake, then - No big deal!
Apologies to the travelling customers on the day though.
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Tandem I believe that in the particular case a slot delay was a factor. What is relevant under Articles 72 and 73 of the ANO (which have to be read with Cap 371) is the interpretation of facts as they appear at the time any decision was made.
"Art 72 - Fatigue of crew - operators responsibilities
(2) The operator of an aircraft to which this article applies shall not cause or permit any person to fly therein as a member of its crew if he knows or has reason to believe that the person is suffering form, or, having regard tot he circumstances of the flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, such fatigue while he is so flying as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.
Art 73 - Fatigue of crew - operators responsibilities
(1) A person shall not act as a member of the crew of an aircraft to which this article applies if he knows or suspects that he is suffering from, or, having regard to the circumstance of the flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, such fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants."
This lady was obviously feeling beaten up and demoralised by her treatment by the company and what might have been taken in the stride of someone who did not have such issues very probably weighed with her in coming to the decision she did.
Doubtless it will all come out in the wash as to exactly what did happen but I observe with considerable alarm that the manager concerned has now gone public on his right to determine whether or not one of "his" pilots has exercised his discretion not to extend a duty for good and proper reasons......
The stakes just appeared to get higher.....................
"Art 72 - Fatigue of crew - operators responsibilities
(2) The operator of an aircraft to which this article applies shall not cause or permit any person to fly therein as a member of its crew if he knows or has reason to believe that the person is suffering form, or, having regard tot he circumstances of the flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, such fatigue while he is so flying as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.
Art 73 - Fatigue of crew - operators responsibilities
(1) A person shall not act as a member of the crew of an aircraft to which this article applies if he knows or suspects that he is suffering from, or, having regard to the circumstance of the flight to be undertaken, is likely to suffer from, such fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants."
This lady was obviously feeling beaten up and demoralised by her treatment by the company and what might have been taken in the stride of someone who did not have such issues very probably weighed with her in coming to the decision she did.
Doubtless it will all come out in the wash as to exactly what did happen but I observe with considerable alarm that the manager concerned has now gone public on his right to determine whether or not one of "his" pilots has exercised his discretion not to extend a duty for good and proper reasons......
The stakes just appeared to get higher.....................
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There is a worrying trend developing in this thread. Some contributors seem to think that if a Captain decides not to use his/her discretion to extend the duty period, then the resultant and inevitable disruption to the passengers is that Captains fault. Please bear in mind that there will have been a number of reasons why they have reached their decision. Poor rostering, poor scheduling, aircraft changes, ATC delays, strikes, weather, crew transport, disruptive passengers...the list goes on and on. All these things contribute to fatigue and pilots can rarely influence any of them.
In my experience, we pilots want what is best for the company and passengers alike. However, we are the ones that have to make the difficult decision, where necessary, to call things a day before all the holes line up.
In my experience, we pilots want what is best for the company and passengers alike. However, we are the ones that have to make the difficult decision, where necessary, to call things a day before all the holes line up.
Last edited by Sadly Cynical; 1st Oct 2004 at 16:21.
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In my experience, BACX do not put pressure on pilots (routinely or otherwise) to exercise discretion. BACX is a very professional outfit. The management are sophisticated enough to realise that 'discretion' is in the personal gift of their senior manager on scene (the Captain!) This is not MOL we are dealing with!
You are without doubt a senior secondee on a BA contract on the RJ. Correct?
As such, you get for starters another £12000 per annum more than your CX colleagues doing exactly the same job. Correct?
Additionally you have a special scheduling agreement deal which gives you a further £7000 per annum in comparison with said colleauge (due to a happy cock up by one of the managers you laud). Correct?
So you are getting £19000 per annum more, enjoy special mainline priviledges like final salary pensions, (some CX pilots will leave with a pension of £8000 per annum) health care, enhanced loss of licence cover, blah, blah blah............
Not surprising really that you think all is rosy with BACX management, the main man of which of course enjoys exactly the same as you before his management package is even considered.
Your experience and views are I am sorry to say very far from typical from a workforce who has not had a pay rise in over three years and is now effectively offered a pay cut and is now being harassed into working beyond safe FTL limits.
Professional.........................??!!! Dont make us laugh.
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In my experience, BACX do not put pressure on pilots (routinely or otherwise) to exercise discretion. BACX is a very professional outfit.
Claims the RJ fleet training has been taken over by a bunch of "flying school GA amatuers" from the J41 who are imposing GA principles to jet flyng.
He was even less complmentary about the management.
"Small time with small brains" and no end of crap rostering and unreasonable demands.
Not my opinion. Just the messenger. My only view of CX is half a sandwich masquerading as "full service" is taking the urine.
BTSM
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This thread is digressing in a depressingly predictable way!
Tinytim, hi;
The overwhelming majority of your last post is wrong.
I'm not even entirely sure why it would be relevent even if true!
There are obviously 2 sides to every story. I have clearly only heard one. However, it has been suggested that discretion MAY not have been required to complete this duty.
Do you know different?
I can sympathise with the individual concerned, but perhaps they made a mistake??
I just disagree with the idea that BACX put pressure on people to work into discretion. That has NOT been my experience.
BTSM
Tell your mate to bid back to LHR! No problem. I'm sure he'll be much happier there!! Why didn't he bid back last year if he is so unhappy?
Tinytim, hi;
The overwhelming majority of your last post is wrong.
I'm not even entirely sure why it would be relevent even if true!
There are obviously 2 sides to every story. I have clearly only heard one. However, it has been suggested that discretion MAY not have been required to complete this duty.
Do you know different?
I can sympathise with the individual concerned, but perhaps they made a mistake??
I just disagree with the idea that BACX put pressure on people to work into discretion. That has NOT been my experience.
BTSM
Tell your mate to bid back to LHR! No problem. I'm sure he'll be much happier there!! Why didn't he bid back last year if he is so unhappy?
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 1st Oct 2004 at 21:32.
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Claims the RJ fleet training has been taken over by a bunch of "flying school GA amatuers" from the J41 who are imposing GA principles to jet flyng.
Philosophy of Chief trainer is that once a trainer always a trainer.
Result. Boyo who was a trainer on the J41 and has never flown a jet before gets instant promotion on demise of that fleet to jet trainer on RJ100, thereby leaping over the heads of more experienced better qualified and more senior individuals.
A strange philosophy which has its roots "on the Island" and the need at all costs to look after your mates.
The buck stops with Mr DF and for this and many other reasons like this "discretion" fiasco many of us have no confidence in him or his judgement and cant wait to see him return to BA to join his recently departed and sorely unmissed colleague.
Last edited by Sheikh Zabik; 1st Oct 2004 at 21:34.
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Apparently one of their new procedures is to have the "local" QNH on the standby above TA. How flyng school is that.?
What are you supposed to do ask for, every regional QNH from here to Rome?
TR
He won't go back to LHR right now because dispite it being a "tin pot operation", post pay deal he wouldn't get command for another year or two. I suspect then he'll be off.
Also they threatened a secondee captain with suspension if he didn't break an industrial agreement to operate recently. His FM told him off the record if he didn't operate he was under instruction to suspend him. I'd like to have seen try.
BA would have bown a gasket not to mention BALPA.
I still maintain half a sandwich isn't full service. Says a lot about the company to me.
BTSM
What are you supposed to do ask for, every regional QNH from here to Rome?
TR
He won't go back to LHR right now because dispite it being a "tin pot operation", post pay deal he wouldn't get command for another year or two. I suspect then he'll be off.
Also they threatened a secondee captain with suspension if he didn't break an industrial agreement to operate recently. His FM told him off the record if he didn't operate he was under instruction to suspend him. I'd like to have seen try.
BA would have bown a gasket not to mention BALPA.
I still maintain half a sandwich isn't full service. Says a lot about the company to me.
BTSM
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He won't go back to LHR right now because dispite it being a "tin pot operation", post pay deal he wouldn't get command for another year or two. I suspect then he'll be off.
Cx is in desperate need of some changes and by that I dont mean more of the same in the shape of Mr Df's chosen succesor.
IMHO BA should either get rid of Cx along with its dreadful management or fully integrate it. This discretion thing is a desperate man trying to reassert his authority as pilots head for the door. At least you know exactly where you stand with O'Leary!
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U sure of that BOAC?
One of Mr DF's first antics as GMFO at CX was to promote a junior FO with low hours and zilch seniority (Loads claimed as flight engineer) to be a fleet manager with a command thrown in. He did of course have the right handshake.
It has been down hill since then and morale has headed so far south that most people dont give a damn anymore.
One of Mr DF's first antics as GMFO at CX was to promote a junior FO with low hours and zilch seniority (Loads claimed as flight engineer) to be a fleet manager with a command thrown in. He did of course have the right handshake.
It has been down hill since then and morale has headed so far south that most people dont give a damn anymore.
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I just CANNOT BELIEVE what I have read on this thread.
This Guy DF is a BA manager..............right?
If all this is true then he appears to be acting like an unaccountable dictator with little regard for the interests of his pilots or the fare paying public.
Someone like to tell me how or why he's keeping his job???
This Guy DF is a BA manager..............right?
If all this is true then he appears to be acting like an unaccountable dictator with little regard for the interests of his pilots or the fare paying public.
Someone like to tell me how or why he's keeping his job???
Last edited by Ghengis Cant; 2nd Oct 2004 at 17:42.
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Ghengis
You'd better believe it! There can be few examples in recent airline history where the morale of in excess of 500 pilots has plummeted to the absolute hard deck in so short a time - and all at the hand of DF. Then you need to look at the grasping ex BRAL (cos' with the exception of the ex-Brymon flight engineer there aren't any Brymon guys left) wunderkinds who DF has working for him.
Past form and the treatment of the pilots which DF has forced out of bases suggests that he has NO regard for his pilots.
But you need to look past him at the failed BAR manager who runs the whole shabang.
You'd better believe it! There can be few examples in recent airline history where the morale of in excess of 500 pilots has plummeted to the absolute hard deck in so short a time - and all at the hand of DF. Then you need to look at the grasping ex BRAL (cos' with the exception of the ex-Brymon flight engineer there aren't any Brymon guys left) wunderkinds who DF has working for him.
Past form and the treatment of the pilots which DF has forced out of bases suggests that he has NO regard for his pilots.
But you need to look past him at the failed BAR manager who runs the whole shabang.
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Sorry. I just don't get it.
This is a BA Company which prides itself on service to the public and a well motivated and well paid workforce which sets the standard to which others aspire.....including Industrial relations.
I know pprune is tongue in cheek and not to be taken too seriously but what is being described here is a third world operation with managers who shouldn't be let loose in a corner shop (If even half of what is being alleged is fact).
Does Mr Eddington know about this? He is many things but certainly not stupid.
What the ££$$!! is going on with BA CitiExpress?
This is a BA Company which prides itself on service to the public and a well motivated and well paid workforce which sets the standard to which others aspire.....including Industrial relations.
I know pprune is tongue in cheek and not to be taken too seriously but what is being described here is a third world operation with managers who shouldn't be let loose in a corner shop (If even half of what is being alleged is fact).
Does Mr Eddington know about this? He is many things but certainly not stupid.
What the ££$$!! is going on with BA CitiExpress?
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Tandem, where have you gone?
You recently said:-
Tinytim, hi;
The overwhelming majority of your last post is wrong.
I'm not even entirely sure why it would be relevent even if true!
Maybe you have now taken a look at the official BACX pilot's scheduling agreement and discovered that Tiny is right. Thanks to some monumental cock up by BA management, you have a different arrangement for overtime (see secondment agreement) which with this years flying rates, is likely to make you better off than your fellow CX contract pilot to the tune of 6 to 8k (depending on your basic salary).
It took months to thrash out this agreement and six months on, one or two BA managers appear to have completely trashed it.
You recently said:-
Tinytim, hi;
The overwhelming majority of your last post is wrong.
I'm not even entirely sure why it would be relevent even if true!
Maybe you have now taken a look at the official BACX pilot's scheduling agreement and discovered that Tiny is right. Thanks to some monumental cock up by BA management, you have a different arrangement for overtime (see secondment agreement) which with this years flying rates, is likely to make you better off than your fellow CX contract pilot to the tune of 6 to 8k (depending on your basic salary).
It took months to thrash out this agreement and six months on, one or two BA managers appear to have completely trashed it.