Trouble Brewing at CitiExpress
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4468, I can only imagine you are a robot! For heavens sake, we all know that females do the same job as us, in some cases to a higher standard! However, does that mean you don't treat them with a bit of courtesy? Or that generally the level of risque joke is toned down, or even that you hold doors open for them, or just show a soupcon of politesse? Personally I much prefer to fly with a female FO, quite apart from the fact that most of them DO try harder because of the atmosphere engendered by the likes of yourself, and partly because every one I have ever known has striven to be a consummate professional!
Your comments show a total lack of sensitivity. One of the great benefits of gender differences is that one IS able to behave like a gentleman, to show a bit of deference to a girl, to basically abide by the rules that have governed civilised society for the last x hundred years. I do not suggest that to be a licence for abuse, but I'd be interested to know what your wife or girlfriend thinks of the incident and your comments. Pray, do ask her, and enlighten us all.
In the meantime, does anyone have a timescale for this to come to an end?
(Blows Capt. MB a big kiss, and wishes her all the luck in the world!)
Your comments show a total lack of sensitivity. One of the great benefits of gender differences is that one IS able to behave like a gentleman, to show a bit of deference to a girl, to basically abide by the rules that have governed civilised society for the last x hundred years. I do not suggest that to be a licence for abuse, but I'd be interested to know what your wife or girlfriend thinks of the incident and your comments. Pray, do ask her, and enlighten us all.
In the meantime, does anyone have a timescale for this to come to an end?
(Blows Capt. MB a big kiss, and wishes her all the luck in the world!)
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So Cornflake
You are saying that you treat a male colleague with LESS courtesy? Don't you hold doors open for MALE colleagues? Don't you treat THEM with a "soupcon of politesse?" Don't your MALE colleagues strive to be consummate professionals?
It's a tricky one isn't it.
Are we equal, or are some more equal than others?
My question was: Why is this pilot's gender relevant?
In other words, would a male pilot be in more difficulties here, than this female?
I didn't introduce this information, but some seem to be using gender as a justification!
What's the answer?
You are saying that you treat a male colleague with LESS courtesy? Don't you hold doors open for MALE colleagues? Don't you treat THEM with a "soupcon of politesse?" Don't your MALE colleagues strive to be consummate professionals?
It's a tricky one isn't it.
Are we equal, or are some more equal than others?
My question was: Why is this pilot's gender relevant?
In other words, would a male pilot be in more difficulties here, than this female?
I didn't introduce this information, but some seem to be using gender as a justification!
What's the answer?
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Small child?
I am not sure how the small child fits into this scenario?
If a pilot (any pilot) is fatigued for whatever reason then it is incumbent upon that pilot NOT TO REPORT to fly; may not be popular with management/rostering but necessary.
All (or most) of us have had a small child in our lives (some several) at some time during our flying careers and yes! sometimes they yell and cry all night because they are unwell or whatever, but hopefully we work around it. We (that is the sexist men) pull on the earmuffs and the little lady (wife) takes care of the child child's needs.
My question is why was said pilot up all night with a young child when she knew that she had heavy flying schedule the next day? Having been up all night why did she not call rostering and inform them that she was unfit to fly due to fatigue?
Whatever the reasons(s) for the above this situation should never had happened in the first place AND when the Captain concerned realised it was begining to get out of hand quite correctly that Captain informed the company that she would not exercise Captain's discretion and that is HER prerogative.
The danger here is that the company may decide that this employee is a liablity and use it's prerogative to let that employee go. However not on the pretext of that employee not excercising her discretion but because a company cannot run a business profitably if aircraft end up at the wrong airport and the pax are pixxed off!
If a pilot (any pilot) is fatigued for whatever reason then it is incumbent upon that pilot NOT TO REPORT to fly; may not be popular with management/rostering but necessary.
All (or most) of us have had a small child in our lives (some several) at some time during our flying careers and yes! sometimes they yell and cry all night because they are unwell or whatever, but hopefully we work around it. We (that is the sexist men) pull on the earmuffs and the little lady (wife) takes care of the child child's needs.
My question is why was said pilot up all night with a young child when she knew that she had heavy flying schedule the next day? Having been up all night why did she not call rostering and inform them that she was unfit to fly due to fatigue?
Whatever the reasons(s) for the above this situation should never had happened in the first place AND when the Captain concerned realised it was begining to get out of hand quite correctly that Captain informed the company that she would not exercise Captain's discretion and that is HER prerogative.
The danger here is that the company may decide that this employee is a liablity and use it's prerogative to let that employee go. However not on the pretext of that employee not excercising her discretion but because a company cannot run a business profitably if aircraft end up at the wrong airport and the pax are pixxed off!
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Three months after suspension BACX announce "There is no case to answer"
They suggest this Captain just puts it all behind her and comes back to work.
She has made no concessions to them and her integrity has been proven.
The Company however probably feel that they have fired a nice shot across the bows and that we all now understand that discretion "is expected"
DEAD WRONG! Safety will remain our prime concern...we will not be intimidated.
They suggest this Captain just puts it all behind her and comes back to work.
She has made no concessions to them and her integrity has been proven.
The Company however probably feel that they have fired a nice shot across the bows and that we all now understand that discretion "is expected"
DEAD WRONG! Safety will remain our prime concern...we will not be intimidated.
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Assuming this to be true,then I am so glad for the lady concerned. One can only imagine the hell she has been through.
So far as Mr De La Fosse is concerned he should show his integrity by resigning.
This is a disgusting episode which has devalued the reputation of BA.
It would be gratifying to think that some of what has been said on this thread and the widespread attention paid as a result might have contributed to this shame faced and long overdue climb down.
So far as Mr De La Fosse is concerned he should show his integrity by resigning.
This is a disgusting episode which has devalued the reputation of BA.
It would be gratifying to think that some of what has been said on this thread and the widespread attention paid as a result might have contributed to this shame faced and long overdue climb down.
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Integrity? Credibility? Laws of the universe suggest they cannot co-exist in the presence of this, by now, discredited manager.
Captain B should finish him off with a civil action.
Captain B should finish him off with a civil action.
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I Ford
I Ford you hit the nail on the head!!
Please forgive me repeating myself.
"What was a pilot doing up all night with a yound child (presumably poorly - and we have all been there!) knowing that he (or she in this case) had a long days flying ahead with a duty day that she knew would take her to the fullest extent of her duty day, if everything went to plan.
If she was truly "up all night" then she should have called in and told rostering she was not fit to report for duty.
What I suspect happened was that in fact she went to work, perhaps already a little tired after a long night up with a young child not because she wanted to but because she knew the shxt would hit the fan if she did not! That is where the poor management began!
I think as an observer that both the pilot concerned and the company have a part of the blame each. However at the end of the day the pilot was totally correct to refuse to go into discretion because SHE did not feel safe doing so and that is HER right so to do.
I think she acted foolishly, out of misplace loyalty, by going to work after a night up with a young child BUT acted very sensibly by refusing to go into discretion.
By contrast the company had made itself many enemies and made itself look very stupid and poor at management; nothing new there!!
I hope the lady concerned has a Merry Christmas and is able to put this sorry sago behind her in the New Year.
Please forgive me repeating myself.
"What was a pilot doing up all night with a yound child (presumably poorly - and we have all been there!) knowing that he (or she in this case) had a long days flying ahead with a duty day that she knew would take her to the fullest extent of her duty day, if everything went to plan.
If she was truly "up all night" then she should have called in and told rostering she was not fit to report for duty.
What I suspect happened was that in fact she went to work, perhaps already a little tired after a long night up with a young child not because she wanted to but because she knew the shxt would hit the fan if she did not! That is where the poor management began!
I think as an observer that both the pilot concerned and the company have a part of the blame each. However at the end of the day the pilot was totally correct to refuse to go into discretion because SHE did not feel safe doing so and that is HER right so to do.
I think she acted foolishly, out of misplace loyalty, by going to work after a night up with a young child BUT acted very sensibly by refusing to go into discretion.
By contrast the company had made itself many enemies and made itself look very stupid and poor at management; nothing new there!!
I hope the lady concerned has a Merry Christmas and is able to put this sorry sago behind her in the New Year.
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Congratulations to Captain MB, and I really hope you now sue the a**e off the many incompetent management that have made you suffer much trauma these last few months. Not to mention all the lost resources at the countless meetings.
Also a lesson to be learned by Ops - the Captain makes the decisions, not some spotty youth Ops Assistant who probably has never been in an aircraft and has not the first understanding of the legal responsibilities of a Captain, let alone FTL. As for the many other inaccurate and accusative comments on this forum from an individual in Nav Services (you will know who you are) - the same applies.
Enough said!!
Also a lesson to be learned by Ops - the Captain makes the decisions, not some spotty youth Ops Assistant who probably has never been in an aircraft and has not the first understanding of the legal responsibilities of a Captain, let alone FTL. As for the many other inaccurate and accusative comments on this forum from an individual in Nav Services (you will know who you are) - the same applies.
Enough said!!
Last edited by wacky; 24th Dec 2004 at 16:45.
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Fantastic News Captain MB! Hope you and your family have the very best Christmas.
So far as Captain de La Mutley is concerned I guess that'll be another medal from David Dastardly for another job well £$cked up! (must be running out of room for them all!)
May you have a severe bout of very uncomfortable indigestion on Christmas day!!!
So far as Captain de La Mutley is concerned I guess that'll be another medal from David Dastardly for another job well £$cked up! (must be running out of room for them all!)
May you have a severe bout of very uncomfortable indigestion on Christmas day!!!
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Mel - all the very best, and the very best wishes for Christmas and the New Year. I suggest this is NOT a shot acros OUR bows, it is rather a shot across the bows of the pathetic, vindictive, incompetent, totaly effing useless BRITISH AIRWAYS management, ie TDLF and those of the brown-nosed variety of management following him.
You have done us all a favor by standing up to this intimidation, I hope you and your family enjoy not only the Festive Season, but also a long and happy professional career of your choice!
You have done us all a favor by standing up to this intimidation, I hope you and your family enjoy not only the Festive Season, but also a long and happy professional career of your choice!
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Ten thousand congratulations, I know I speak for all of us when I say how pleased we are! There was never ANY doubt about who was in the right, but we have seen the blatant mismanagement and intimidation before, the refusal to admit they were wrong and to keep piling on the pressure till the relevant pilot in the cross hairs just gave up. Well they chose wrong this time m'dear! Hurray for you, and by inference, us all. Just maybe it would be icing on the cake if TDLF and your brown-nosing Fleet and Deputy Manager were sued..........don't we have a legal connection in the family as well in BALPA.......
The single main thing is you're back, and with, wait for it...
NO CASE TO ANSWER
I wonder how much wasted money and effort this all adds up to? I do so hope Skippy takes it off DLF's KPI bonus!
The single main thing is you're back, and with, wait for it...
NO CASE TO ANSWER I wonder how much wasted money and effort this all adds up to? I do so hope Skippy takes it off DLF's KPI bonus!
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Just a quick one to get this thread to the top again. Any update? There are lots of us hoping that the Captain takes a good lawyer and counter sues for stress, wrongful accusation, management malpractice, constructive accusation etc etc.
If this started as supposedly a shot across our bows, I think it only fair to return the compliment with interest. I would LOVE to be in the court at the time. Does Flying Lawyer have a view on this??
Here's hoping....
If this started as supposedly a shot across our bows, I think it only fair to return the compliment with interest. I would LOVE to be in the court at the time. Does Flying Lawyer have a view on this??
Here's hoping....
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Wacky,
Whoever you are, and from under which ever stone you crawled, may I be so bold as to ask you crawl back......
You clearly are a bit of a pratt!
Better communication between operating crew and the applicable operations department, is what's needed. Not the display of arrogance you so happily show us all here on Pprune.
Your kind of attitude makes you a danger to not only yourself, but to your company. Do you pay any attention during CRM?
You are a small part of a very big team, the sooner you realise that, the better!
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Good to see that the inept BACX management have at long last put this matter to bed. This was an issue that should have been cleared up after one meeting.
Wishing all at BACX a very Happy New Year!
Whoever you are, and from under which ever stone you crawled, may I be so bold as to ask you crawl back......
You clearly are a bit of a pratt!
Better communication between operating crew and the applicable operations department, is what's needed. Not the display of arrogance you so happily show us all here on Pprune.
Your kind of attitude makes you a danger to not only yourself, but to your company. Do you pay any attention during CRM?
You are a small part of a very big team, the sooner you realise that, the better!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good to see that the inept BACX management have at long last put this matter to bed. This was an issue that should have been cleared up after one meeting.
Wishing all at BACX a very Happy New Year!
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Thank you
Hi Everybody
Thought I'd post a message to those of you who've supported me through this site. Thank you all so very much, it's been a bit of an ordeal and suffice to say it's not over yet!
I don't know any of your identities so unless you 'reveal yourselves to me' I won't know who you are! This case has certainly increased my resolve to challenge 'authority' not weakened it.
As I said during my disciplinary hearing, faced with the same circumstances I'd make the same decision again, that is what I'm paid to do, not to be bullied and intimidated into operating when I consider it unsafe.
Hope you all had a good Christmas and New Year.
Regards
Mel Buchanan
Thought I'd post a message to those of you who've supported me through this site. Thank you all so very much, it's been a bit of an ordeal and suffice to say it's not over yet!
I don't know any of your identities so unless you 'reveal yourselves to me' I won't know who you are! This case has certainly increased my resolve to challenge 'authority' not weakened it.
As I said during my disciplinary hearing, faced with the same circumstances I'd make the same decision again, that is what I'm paid to do, not to be bullied and intimidated into operating when I consider it unsafe.
Hope you all had a good Christmas and New Year.
Regards
Mel Buchanan
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Dear Mel,
Great to hear from you. Many congrats, glad to hear it isn't over yet!
A brilliant pilot, a ballsy character, and a beautiful girl - I wish you all the very best for the future! You didn't shirk your responsibility to your passengers, to your crew, to yourself, to your Industry, and oddly enough, to your Company - though I doubt TDLF has the nowse to see it like that yet.
Look forward to flying with you again soon.
Great to hear from you. Many congrats, glad to hear it isn't over yet!
A brilliant pilot, a ballsy character, and a beautiful girl - I wish you all the very best for the future! You didn't shirk your responsibility to your passengers, to your crew, to yourself, to your Industry, and oddly enough, to your Company - though I doubt TDLF has the nowse to see it like that yet.
Look forward to flying with you again soon.
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Interesting to hear that Mr DF has recently been pressing hard for a job in a certain BA Fleet office.
Obviously doesn't want to play Citiexpress anymore.
Nothing to do with the bloody nose he got in this shameful debacle of course!
A bit prem to get the champagne on ice but boy will there be a party.......................
Obviously doesn't want to play Citiexpress anymore.
Nothing to do with the bloody nose he got in this shameful debacle of course!
A bit prem to get the champagne on ice but boy will there be a party.......................