Trouble Brewing at CitiExpress
I've no axe to grind with anyone but part of RMCs' posting on 3rd November in reply to Gwyn reads:-
"4-Regarding your hypothetical slot situation, the pax were all off loaded in BLQ (after she had made up time on the MAN - BLQ sector) with only 10 mins left before she went into discretion."
Does that mean the whole of the return flight would have been in discretion? or that after say a forty minute turnround thirty minutes discretion would be needed to get the aircraft back.
I suspect the latter, but hopefully we may get clarification on this
"4-Regarding your hypothetical slot situation, the pax were all off loaded in BLQ (after she had made up time on the MAN - BLQ sector) with only 10 mins left before she went into discretion."
Does that mean the whole of the return flight would have been in discretion? or that after say a forty minute turnround thirty minutes discretion would be needed to get the aircraft back.
I suspect the latter, but hopefully we may get clarification on this
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So RMC
You seem to know all the answers, and keen to set the record straight.
What's the answer?
I have to say, since the term "off loaded" was used, I took this to mean, the passengers returning to MAN!
ie. The turn round had ALREADY been completed.
Perhaps I misunderstood?
And where did the refuelling issue come into it?
You seem to know all the answers, and keen to set the record straight.
What's the answer?
I have to say, since the term "off loaded" was used, I took this to mean, the passengers returning to MAN!
ie. The turn round had ALREADY been completed.
Perhaps I misunderstood?
And where did the refuelling issue come into it?
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Let's just look at the fundamentals of this issue, and even (though I find it difficult) let's de-personalise it.
1. The Company is trying to prove that a Captain who refused to go into discretion on grounds of fatigue and flight safety is in the wrong.
2. The facts seem open to interpretation from both sides, depending on what you want to accentuate.
3. The Company in question is well known for breaking agreements, frequently ignoring contracts and breaking signed BALPA 'treaties'.
So, what do you think will be the end result if the Company perceive they have 'won' this one? I suggest their tails will be up, their self confidence in bullying will increase, and the world of BACX will take another dive in all respects. For that reason alone, they cannot be allowed to win. Can you really not imagine what the likes of TDLF, PH, IC, DC, DW, etc will be like with the next set of crew who have an issue with discretion? I'll go further. Can you imagine the pressure on the next Captain who is feeling knacked at the end of another double Nice, or five sectors through a six sector day and really doesn't feel up to it - yet will not dare to say "ENOUGH" because the Company won this one? This is a Flight Safety issue, not to mention a deliberate hounding of one of the most competent and nicest Captains we have in the Company. Also, as has been stated elsewhere, sadly enough, she used to be one of the most pro-Company pilots we had! If they'll do this to one of their PROTAGONISTS - what the heck do you think the rest of us wil get?
It's not straightforward, but to quote that irritating pomposity PH -"We are where we are"
We can roll belly up, or we can support her. Does the question really need to be asked?
Tandemrotor, please tell me what would be happening if this were a mainline Captain? You know as well as I it would have been put away before it was a week old, BA BALPA would never have let it get this far, and you of all people should be ashamed of some of your inferences. Hypocrite!
1. The Company is trying to prove that a Captain who refused to go into discretion on grounds of fatigue and flight safety is in the wrong.
2. The facts seem open to interpretation from both sides, depending on what you want to accentuate.
3. The Company in question is well known for breaking agreements, frequently ignoring contracts and breaking signed BALPA 'treaties'.
So, what do you think will be the end result if the Company perceive they have 'won' this one? I suggest their tails will be up, their self confidence in bullying will increase, and the world of BACX will take another dive in all respects. For that reason alone, they cannot be allowed to win. Can you really not imagine what the likes of TDLF, PH, IC, DC, DW, etc will be like with the next set of crew who have an issue with discretion? I'll go further. Can you imagine the pressure on the next Captain who is feeling knacked at the end of another double Nice, or five sectors through a six sector day and really doesn't feel up to it - yet will not dare to say "ENOUGH" because the Company won this one? This is a Flight Safety issue, not to mention a deliberate hounding of one of the most competent and nicest Captains we have in the Company. Also, as has been stated elsewhere, sadly enough, she used to be one of the most pro-Company pilots we had! If they'll do this to one of their PROTAGONISTS - what the heck do you think the rest of us wil get?
It's not straightforward, but to quote that irritating pomposity PH -"We are where we are"
We can roll belly up, or we can support her. Does the question really need to be asked?
Tandemrotor, please tell me what would be happening if this were a mainline Captain? You know as well as I it would have been put away before it was a week old, BA BALPA would never have let it get this far, and you of all people should be ashamed of some of your inferences. Hypocrite!
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=========NEWS FLASH=======
This afternoon an aircraft carrying 43 passengers bound for Manchester Airport from Bologna, Italy has crashed on the approach to the runway. We have reason to believe, that there are a few survivors, including the pilot, who is female.
The circumstances leading up to the accident are being investigated by the company and the AAIB.
All evidence seems to suggest, that a chain of errors was not broken by any of the involved parties and led to the loss of life.
The investigators came to the conclusion, that the following points contributed to the accident:
1. Inadequate roster patterns: GLA-BLQ is minutes short of legal FTL's. It does not leave any margin for any kind of delays and unforseen circumstances.
2. The pilot admitted to being "tired" after being up almost all night with her small child...
3. Adding to the fatigue was the pressure she felt put under, due to a new FO on type, bad weather conditions over the alps and being "pro-company", to keep the schedule going despite adverse additions such as operational change of CCrew after the first two sectors and slot delays.
The GMFO is suggesting that the whole sad accident could have been avoided if the pilot would have taken the sensible decision with safety in mind and exercised her discretion to not extend her own and her crew's flying duty.
As she chose not to they are now blaming HER.
The trial will begin next week and it will be one of the first criminal trials televised and broadcast live.
This afternoon an aircraft carrying 43 passengers bound for Manchester Airport from Bologna, Italy has crashed on the approach to the runway. We have reason to believe, that there are a few survivors, including the pilot, who is female.
The circumstances leading up to the accident are being investigated by the company and the AAIB.
All evidence seems to suggest, that a chain of errors was not broken by any of the involved parties and led to the loss of life.
The investigators came to the conclusion, that the following points contributed to the accident:
1. Inadequate roster patterns: GLA-BLQ is minutes short of legal FTL's. It does not leave any margin for any kind of delays and unforseen circumstances.
2. The pilot admitted to being "tired" after being up almost all night with her small child...
3. Adding to the fatigue was the pressure she felt put under, due to a new FO on type, bad weather conditions over the alps and being "pro-company", to keep the schedule going despite adverse additions such as operational change of CCrew after the first two sectors and slot delays.
The GMFO is suggesting that the whole sad accident could have been avoided if the pilot would have taken the sensible decision with safety in mind and exercised her discretion to not extend her own and her crew's flying duty.
As she chose not to they are now blaming HER.
The trial will begin next week and it will be one of the first criminal trials televised and broadcast live.
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Just as an aside............. it is worth making a couple of comments about the management philosophy behind this unpleasant business.
Apart from holding office in Flight operations for companies that consistently have lost large amounts of money and developed apalling morale there is previous history from the recent past where comparisons can be drawn. One of Mr D F's principle characteristics is to shoot first and then ask questions later of those that he wants to get rid of.
As I understand it, this lady would not be considered PC by your man and it is not hard therefor to see why he wants her out.
A previous chairman of Balpa to whom there was a great deal of personal animosity by said gentleman was suspended in dubious circumstances. After months and months of kack handed and mishandled disciplinaries the individual lost his medical due to the pressure and trauma and has never flown since. DF therefor slipped of the hook and never had his conducted tested in a tribunal.
Make no mistake, this unfortunate lady can have no confidence in those who are playing God with her career.........And this is a BA company...............
Apart from holding office in Flight operations for companies that consistently have lost large amounts of money and developed apalling morale there is previous history from the recent past where comparisons can be drawn. One of Mr D F's principle characteristics is to shoot first and then ask questions later of those that he wants to get rid of.
As I understand it, this lady would not be considered PC by your man and it is not hard therefor to see why he wants her out.
A previous chairman of Balpa to whom there was a great deal of personal animosity by said gentleman was suspended in dubious circumstances. After months and months of kack handed and mishandled disciplinaries the individual lost his medical due to the pressure and trauma and has never flown since. DF therefor slipped of the hook and never had his conducted tested in a tribunal.
Make no mistake, this unfortunate lady can have no confidence in those who are playing God with her career.........And this is a BA company...............
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Interesting parallel going on in Mainline at the moment. A skipper was suspended last week because he refused to accept an aircraft that he considered unsafe to fly. The Captain in question has without doubt behaved with unbelievable dignity throughout the whole sorry affair. It is also true to say that 99.9% of the pilots on the fleet back the balanced and difficult choice he had to make. The reason why this is interesting is because the manager in question was ex-regions and seems to have a history of this type of intimidation. I have a feeling that the mainline senior managers are not going to back this character having already issued a statement that they will back any Captain who makes the judgement call that an aircraft is not safe to fly. So if TDF is using this type of approach and is found to be wanting then I don't think he will get much backing from his bosses down at HQ.
Sad times for aviation. It will eventually lead to many people being killed, its as simple as that.
Sad times for aviation. It will eventually lead to many people being killed, its as simple as that.
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Bean - The situation I described was (from the BACX point of view) as fair as it could have been ie
If her departure slot vanished she would have had 10 mins from the last of the MAN - BLQ pax disembarking to getting into the air (otherwise she would have been going into discretion).
She actually had a slot which would,in reality, have put her 57 mins into discretion.
On the day there was a significant headwind and no real opportunity to make up time on the last sector.
whichever way you look at it she would have been going into discretion with links in the accident chain all over the show.
GC your post is interesting as it seems to me the company are dragging this on in the hope that she will resign. It would then be much more difficult for HER to prove constructive dismissal than it would be if the comapny sack her. In this case THEY have to demonstrate robustness of their decision.
If this is the case they have underestimated said lady.
If her departure slot vanished she would have had 10 mins from the last of the MAN - BLQ pax disembarking to getting into the air (otherwise she would have been going into discretion).
She actually had a slot which would,in reality, have put her 57 mins into discretion.
On the day there was a significant headwind and no real opportunity to make up time on the last sector.
whichever way you look at it she would have been going into discretion with links in the accident chain all over the show.
GC your post is interesting as it seems to me the company are dragging this on in the hope that she will resign. It would then be much more difficult for HER to prove constructive dismissal than it would be if the comapny sack her. In this case THEY have to demonstrate robustness of their decision.
If this is the case they have underestimated said lady.
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fo janeway With all due respect...If said pilot was 'tired' should said pilot have not stepped on the plane in the first place......and also should have informed those that have to deal with the pax that said pilot had no intention of returning to MAN from BLQ and not a soul new until arrival at BLQ which then resulted in more flights being cancelled..........another twist. Communcation was the key........
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JBC...........Was this Airbus fleet perchance?? If so, those in CX would know exactly who the manager concerned is having experienced his MO for a gruesome and unpleasant three years.
He was TDF's right hand man and you can betcha that they still have each other's phone numbers.
They dont come much worse frankly.
He was TDF's right hand man and you can betcha that they still have each other's phone numbers.
They dont come much worse frankly.
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Dash7Lover - I think you'll find she gave operations every indication that she wouldn't consider going into discretion, giving them considerable opportunity to sort out any problems that could have left the pax stranded in BLQ
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Dash7
Like Bluff said: Ops had enaf notice of her intentions; ie 3hours.
we all know you're management, trying to stir the brown stuff!
please take your time and read the reports. If you could be @rsed, I'm sure "said pilot" (sounds sooo cooool!) will let you read them!
edited for some spelling
Like Bluff said: Ops had enaf notice of her intentions; ie 3hours.
we all know you're management, trying to stir the brown stuff!
please take your time and read the reports. If you could be @rsed, I'm sure "said pilot" (sounds sooo cooool!) will let you read them!
edited for some spelling
Last edited by FO Janeway; 9th Dec 2004 at 14:17.
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BluffOldSeaDog
In my previous life (MYT) i was told by many a Pilot that i couldnt ask him/her if he intended using discretion until they got to final departure destination (in this case BLQ) because they didnt need to use discretion until then, and they couldnt decide until then. That was the CAA line alledgedly.
This is a very sorry affair, as a Crewing Bod i find the whole story depressing. I am glad that i work for an Airline that respects its Crews views, i even had one of my bods telling a crew to get off a few months ago, as they didnt want them using 2 hrs discretion on a creeping Mx delay despite the Crew wanting to continue....
In my previous life (MYT) i was told by many a Pilot that i couldnt ask him/her if he intended using discretion until they got to final departure destination (in this case BLQ) because they didnt need to use discretion until then, and they couldnt decide until then. That was the CAA line alledgedly.
This is a very sorry affair, as a Crewing Bod i find the whole story depressing. I am glad that i work for an Airline that respects its Crews views, i even had one of my bods telling a crew to get off a few months ago, as they didnt want them using 2 hrs discretion on a creeping Mx delay despite the Crew wanting to continue....
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For "Justbelowcap"
Hi, like Ghengis, interested in who that individual was.... if he wasn't dear old Ali, then was he perchance from the management structure of what used to be ChippyFryer - and in that case, was he the same management type that failed his first go at an FLC??
Go on, tell us, go on, go on, go on, go on go on - you know you want to!
Go on, tell us, go on, go on, go on, go on go on - you know you want to!
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I think this point about who the individual is is really important. If it is the individual who we think it may be then this macho, clodd footed and totaly insensitive attitude seems to characterise him and those who rode up to high office with him. Its all about point scoring and putting one over.....................not about professional, considered and decent management.
These guys do the name and reputataion of BA no good at all, so why does Eddington and his main men allow them to get away with it?
Answer. He either does not know about it or does not consider it to be a problem.
Upon the assumption that not everyone who has contributed to this thread is a radical lefty with an agenda of their own then there seems to be plenty of evidence to show that there are some serious fault lines in BA management which warrant serious review.
Picking on a female captain with a young baby who is well liked and respected to prove his management virility may turn out not to be one of Mr De La Fosse's best decisions.
And yes, we know that Management read this forum. Even Mr E acknowledges it.
These guys do the name and reputataion of BA no good at all, so why does Eddington and his main men allow them to get away with it?
Answer. He either does not know about it or does not consider it to be a problem.
Upon the assumption that not everyone who has contributed to this thread is a radical lefty with an agenda of their own then there seems to be plenty of evidence to show that there are some serious fault lines in BA management which warrant serious review.
Picking on a female captain with a young baby who is well liked and respected to prove his management virility may turn out not to be one of Mr De La Fosse's best decisions.
And yes, we know that Management read this forum. Even Mr E acknowledges it.
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"Picking on a female captain with a young baby"
Why, in this day and age, should her gender be relevant.
Should she expect (or even want?) to be treated differently (better?) than her male colleagues, in a similar situation?
We're all paid the same these days you know!
I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that she would have preferred her gender, and personal circumstances to be kept out of the equation, and certainly out of a public forum. Who was it that introduced this information? (Tinytim?)
The inferrence MAY be taken that she was too tired to be reporting for a 4 sector day. Period. If she was able to tell crew control only HALFWAY through that day, that she would not be fit to exercise ANY discretion later, perhaps she was pushing the safety margins to begin with!
That's where I find this story to be a little unusual.
And if RE is familiar with what goes on, I think he would be dissappointed if his managers did NOT look into these circumstances.
As an aside, in the present economic situation, I would have thought that a thread entitled "Trouble brewing at BACX" probably WOULD attract Rod's attention. But it may not be just management that suffer from this dirty washing!
Why, in this day and age, should her gender be relevant.
Should she expect (or even want?) to be treated differently (better?) than her male colleagues, in a similar situation?
We're all paid the same these days you know!
I wouldn't be too surprised to hear that she would have preferred her gender, and personal circumstances to be kept out of the equation, and certainly out of a public forum. Who was it that introduced this information? (Tinytim?)
The inferrence MAY be taken that she was too tired to be reporting for a 4 sector day. Period. If she was able to tell crew control only HALFWAY through that day, that she would not be fit to exercise ANY discretion later, perhaps she was pushing the safety margins to begin with!
That's where I find this story to be a little unusual.
And if RE is familiar with what goes on, I think he would be dissappointed if his managers did NOT look into these circumstances.
As an aside, in the present economic situation, I would have thought that a thread entitled "Trouble brewing at BACX" probably WOULD attract Rod's attention. But it may not be just management that suffer from this dirty washing!
Last edited by 4468; 11th Dec 2004 at 12:35.
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Of course she should not be treated any different. She is however a woman with a young baby and by definition considerations apply to her which would not to a male colleague.....Properly so.
In this age of political correctness it is a manager with a dubious future I suggest who adds naievety to any other shortcomings.
One can just see the headlines....................
In this age of political correctness it is a manager with a dubious future I suggest who adds naievety to any other shortcomings.
One can just see the headlines....................
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"Of course she should not be treated any different. She is however a woman with a young baby and by definition considerations apply to her which would not to a male colleague.....Properly so."
Ah yes, the hypocrisy of political correctness.
Ah yes, the hypocrisy of political correctness.