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Pilot fatigue grows as problem for airlines

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Old 5th Aug 2004, 20:00
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Here we are (were) on page 2. From many earlier pprune threads and this one, there seems to be no doubt that the problem exists. Surely with ten days on this thread it’s now time for action, not more discussion?

I mentioned earlier: “You (plural) are not alone. It seems at the moment that crew are waiting for a disaster, to use as evidence to support their case.” Is that going to have to happen? Some posters seem to be saying it's already happened.

Is anybody serious about getting something done, or will this be yet another interesting discussion that eventually rolls through pages 2, 3 and 4 to oblivion?
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Old 6th Aug 2004, 08:46
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Wink

Primarily it is required that all “Professional Pilots” or the majority agree that this is a serious matter and something has to be done.

Secondly, the pilot Associations must get together and hire some professionals to plan a campaign, and this of course requires money.

Thirdly, the said Pilots Association have to gather many documents to substantiate this mater.

Ultimately, to find a media organization wiling to take the risk in distributing and displaying such program.

Last one, Kevlar vests on, and run to the bunk.

Almost forgot that, a lot of discretion will be required!


Safe flying to all.

Mercurius
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Old 6th Aug 2004, 09:54
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Air Pilots Get Older and Work Harder

News From Russia

Lyuba Pronina , Moscow Times 6/8/04


Sergei moves people. By day he pilots a commercial airliner for a domestic carrier. And by night he cruises the streets of Moscow in his car, in search of fares to supplement his paltry monthly salary.

Sergei, who refused to reveal his full name and employer, would be the first to call his moonlighting as a gypsy cab driver a scandal, considering his responsibilities as an airplane captain.

"Our managers treat us like bus drivers," Sergei said bitterly.

The domestic airline industry is in its fourth straight year of growth. But for the country's pilots, rising passenger volumes translate into longer hours for roughly the same pay.

On average, a Russian pilot earns $9,500 per year. By comparison, the starting annual salary for Lufthansa pilots is $67,000 and moves up to $135,000. Delta Air Lines pays its pilots between $100,000 and $300,000.

In Soviet times, flying planes was a prestigious profession, remunerated with above-average salaries, benefits and pensions.

But today, the country's pilots are facing a crisis. The high demands of the job and poor pay are scaring off a new generation of pilots. Since 1991, the average age of airline captains has risen to 47, up from 40 to 41, according to the Cockpit Personnel Association of Russia, the pilots' trade union.


Over the past decade Russia has lost a third of its cockpit crews, down from 32,000 to 20,000, according to the union, while passenger volumes last year once again hit 1995 levels.

In 2003, Russia's 200-odd airlines flew 11 percent more passengers, or 29.5 million, on the year, and in the first half of 2004 traffic grew by a record 19.6 percent, according to the Federal Air Transport Service.

"If [industry growth] continues at such a pace, in two to three years we on't have enough pilots to meet demand," said Miroslav Boichuk, president of the Cockpit Personnel Association.

"Pilots are leaving airlines, and those who stay are treated like slaves," said Oleg Prikhodko, head of Bashkir Airlines' pilot union.

In July, Bashkir Airlines pilots went on a one-day strike. They were protesting monthly salaries below the industry average of 23,000 rubles ($750) and demanding a commitment by management to rest times mandated by law, Prikhodko said.

While Bashkir adheres to the maximum allowed 80 flying hours per month -- which is in line with international norms -- Prikhodko said that "some airlines are having their crews flying double that norm -- up to 150 hours. There are not enough pilots."

The problem is affecting airlines large and small.

No. 2 carrier Sibir recently hired and retrained 14 pilots from a smaller regional airline, said Vladislav Bayev, head of Sibir's trade union. But that is only a stop-gap measure to compensate for the 19 pilots who left Sibir earlier this year in search of better wages with other airlines.

The shortage of pilots, coupled with increased demand, is forcing the industry to take desperate measures.

"Without extending flying hour limits, it has become impossible to meet the orders from management," Bayev said. "The flight plans we get -- if divided by [the number of] crews -- is over the 80-hour standard flight time. That's not because of some force majeure, somebody on sick leave or getting married." Sibir did not reply to repeated requests for comment.

Flying up to 100 hours per month is only allowed three times a year.

Boichuk said the industry lives by regulations that were temporarily adopted in 1993 and have yet to be updated.

As airlines come under increasing pressure to meet demand, the unions claim that some are cutting back on benefits and reducing adequate rest times.

"Conscientious airlines still provide them in their social packages, but not all," Boichuk said.

"Aeroflot complies with current regulations. We have had a check by transportation inspectors two months ago and no violations have been found," Aeroflot chief pilot Anatoly Yakimchuk said in an interview.

In January an Aeroflot pilot, 54-year-old Alexander Krasovsky, died from a heart attack in the cockpit shortly before takeoff from Hong Kong.

Yakimchuk said that an investigation found that Krasovsky's death could not be traced to any violations of mandatory rest times by Aeroflot.

But other airlines commit gross violations of the maximum allowed flying time, Yakimchuk said. "They keep afloat by increasing flight hours."

"If they have not rested enough and must worry about how to support their families, pilots cannot concentrate on their jobs," Georg Fongem, vice president of the International Federation of Air Line Pilots' Associations, said in a telephone interview from Germany.

"This is not in the interest of [passenger] safety."

In December, IFALPA, which represents more than 100,000 professional pilots in 90 countries, wrote to President Vladimir Putin outlining the problems of Russian pilots. They have not received a reply, Fongem said.

While the trials and tribulations of Russian pilots remain largely out of the public eye, the profession has also lost much of the prestige and glamour that once lured prospective recruits in Soviet times.

An ongoing poll on www.pprune.org, an online forum for pilots, found as of Thursday that 38 percent of respondents said the job is still glamorous, despite eroding salaries. Roughly the same number said they are "just drivers locked in our cockpits."

"The glamorous image pilots once had is gone, especially with upcoming low-cost airlines," said Fongem, who is a pilot for Lufthansa.

"Nevertheless in Germany we still have enough young people who would like to be a pilot," he said.

To become a Lufthansa pilot requires up to 2 1/2 years of training. The airline largely covers the costs, which are as high as $240,000.

In Russia, where tuition for commercial pilots is free, there are no lines outside flight schools.

"Since Soviet times, the number of our students has fallen tenfold," said Valery Zaorov, head of the Sasovo flight school near Ryazan.

"Where before we used to get 300 students annually -- or even as many as 500 -- this year we count only 25," Zaorov said.

A lot more young people do not clear the medical commission to be able to enroll in a pilots' school.

"Students used to be a lot healthier," Zaorov said.

In the past there have been problems with fuel supplies to schools, many of which use small, obsolete planes. Instructors typically earn 6,000 rubles per month ($200), Boichuk said.

"Our graduates are finding it hard to get a job with an airline," Zaorov said.

When it takes flight school graduates, Aeroflot gives them up to 12 months of additional training before it allows new pilots to fly Russian-built craft.

"The quality of school training is not sufficient for us," said Gennady Prikhodchenko, head of Aeroflot training. "They come with less knowledge and skills."

Two years ago, Aeroflot took on board 25 graduates and plans to set up a training program for Tu-134s and Tu-154s.

Aeroflot is deciding on how to set up its own training school, chief pilot Yakimchuk said, as is common among major world airlines.

Since 1998 Aeroflot has lost 30 pilots to foreign airlines, among them Korean Air and Vietnam Airlines, Yakimchuk said. A number of pilots from Transaero now fly with Irish low-cost carrier Ryanair, said Oleg Cherepanov, a Transaero pilot.

"They live very well," Yakimchuk said. An Aeroflot pilot of a Boeing 777 can expect to make just over $3,000 per month, a top salary at the airline, he said, while in a country like South Korea he would earn $12,000.

Airlines must join forces with the government to reverse the dire situation, Boichuk said. Current crews deserve more benefits from their employers to ensure that safety standards do not drop due to overwork.

The state must make large investments into the revival of flight schools, Boichuk added.

"Our state has not yet understood the potential loss because it inherited cheap labor from Soviet times. Those resources are about to expire," he said. "If measures aren't taken, we will not have a continuity of generations for pilots and there will be inexperienced people at the controls."

Hiring foreign pilots would cost seven times as much, causing ticket prices to skyrocket, he said.

"We have come to a point where [the airline business] cannot be regulated by the rules of the market alone. Otherwise, airlines will be left without pilots."
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Old 13th Aug 2004, 20:57
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Thus you guys were not serious about actually doing something then?
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Old 7th Sep 2004, 19:11
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Certainly looks like it Main_Tenant!

It's a shame really, as actions ALWAYS speak louder than words!
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Old 7th Sep 2004, 19:52
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Why then do airlines set such high standards for selection. As I believe, at selection they find that you pilots can process large volumes of information whilst multi-tasking. You also have, naturally, good hand-eye and foot coordination. You are above average in maths, verbal reasoning and diagnostic abilities.

Make no mistake about it. You are amazing people and model professions - exept the few which disgrace your profession by being caught drunk in a cockpit. I, without even being a pilot, find it incredible, that middle and senior management treat pilots with such a lack of care. I can't think of another profession which rosters 2 nights followed by 3 earlies. I'ts a disgrace. It's simple. No sleep = less effecient brain activity. Beats the purpose of selecting such highly intelligent and gifted people.


It really is a shame that cadetships have dried up. I've seen a post which beleives that it's better for airlines to select pilots after they have finished at CTC. They will then, no doubt, go on to buy and pass a type rating. Just what spoilt young people can afford this luxuary. Many. This is why, as with many other reasons, whilst the RHS remains in such demand companies can treat pilots as they wish. I, also, can't understand why you don't have a union that can protect you.

Look at what the baggage and check-in staff could do at BA. All you have to do is stop flying. I'm sure this is a lot easier than it sounds. At selection you are very clever. What happens to pilots down the line. Do you become brain dead Blairites who put up with whatever bigbrother tells you. Remember 2+2 = 5 - right.

RP

Last edited by RPeagram; 7th Sep 2004 at 21:13.
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Old 7th Sep 2004, 23:03
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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“What an interesting and important issue…” and “…nobody dares to discuss it.” Well of course it has been discussed a lot. This thread started life not far from this thread which touches on the same subject from a different angle.

From many pprune threads to date, there seems to be no doubt that the problem exists. (and is getting worse?) Surely it’s now time for action not discussion? I mentioned in that thread: “You (plural) are not alone. It seems at the moment that crew are waiting for a disaster, to use as evidence to support their case.” Surely that cannot be what anybody wants?

I would happily assist or coordinate some action on this most important issue. I have some ideas about the type of action. Is anybody serious about getting something done, or will this be yet another interesting discussion?
That was my comment on 27th July, which is six weeks ago. We then get a lot of discussion of “tiredness related incidents”, but absolutely no commitment to doing anything about it. I think “All you have to do is stop flying” is expecting a bit too much of people, but surely some form of action is warranted?

In a similar manner to the current slagging off of reporters in the Man security thread, it appears that passenger safety, and crew safety for that matter, is not high on the agenda.
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Old 8th Sep 2004, 10:39
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Well I think I see the way its going to go: the fascinating post about life for Russia's pilots says it all.

There is a pool of trained pilots in Russia earning a pittance and being worked close to death, and gradually they are leaving for the likes of MOL and the like.

Whilst they will still be worked like donkeys there, they will earn, by their domestic standards, a fortune.

Enough money, once remitted back home, to never work again after a reasonable spell in the trenches at MOL-air or wherever can swing the work permit.

And the work permits WILL be forthcoming. Air travel is a "social good" which governments wish to enable the market to provide at minimum cost.

The Western pilots who leave the european industry will be replaced, and a gradual, de-facto "foreign flagging" will - (is taking!?) - take place.

Remember the shipping industry in the UK?

NOTHING will change in the FTL arena. Pilots are too easily divided by work group, (short vs longhaul, one base vs another, one sub-company in the group vs another etc etc etc), to ever mount an effective strike about ANYTHING.

Those who leave will be seen off with glee by management teams desperate to get out from under pension obligations to existing staff.

To the guy who lamented that piloys who leave BMI are never thanked by the managers: the only thanks you'll see are the ones that say:

"thanks for leaving the pension scheme early and getting us off the hook - now we can employ some starry-eyed newcomer at 30% less overall cost to us - p@@@ off and dont close the door behind you!"

Its weird. You go to work and the job still makes extraordinary demands that I still contend very few have the talent or the will to meet. The awesome responsibility for others lives, the need for judgement honed by years of experience, the aching fatigue, the constant need for vigilance and attention to very small but critical details, whilst being so tired you could drop.

And yet you are treated by your management teams at best with indifferance, more often with hostility and frequently with contempt. If you even THINK of striking the press will gleefully wheel out the old stero-types about over-paid, under-worked greedy dimwhits who dont live in the "real world", (as if the proprietors or journalists at the average UK red-top did, but thats another story!).

Forget it: plan a new future. There's a lot of small businesses out there that can provide a good living and the dignity and purpose of self-employment. It also avoids the need to prostrate oneself by stooping as low as some meglomaniac employers in the industry would have one go, seemingly just for the pleasure of being able to get away with it (who might I be thinking of as prime candidate here? Could it be the man who likes to MOL-est pilots' T's n C's !?).

The only salvation I can see is the application of european working time directives to the transport sector, and yet, because air travel is a social good which governments wish to see provided at minimum cost by the market I'll eat my hat if european unions can ever organise a pan-national campaign well enough to succeed.

Last edited by loaded1; 8th Sep 2004 at 11:25.
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Old 8th Sep 2004, 13:13
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Some has removed my posting. This posting included a copy of "I am an army of one" which I have copied off PPRUNE in the first place a long time ago. It was written by a Continental Airlines captain originally.

It was meant to provide a panacea for our aches and pains that this industry/management is causing to most pilots.

The posting did not include anything that justified it's removal. I would like an explanation by whomever felt they had a right to gag me and a right to rob the general population of PPRUNE from enjoying it's contents!
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Old 8th Sep 2004, 13:16
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skyclamp

Was it this piece which I have also kept from a while ago?:

I am an Army of One


I am an Army of One (or 2, or 300, ...)

I am an army of One - A Captain in the Continental Airlines army.
For years I was a loyal soldier in Gordon's army. Now I fight my own war.
I used to feel valued and respected. Now I know I am mere fodder.
They (CAL) used to exhibit labor leadership. Now they exploit legal loopholes.
They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum.
I am an army of One.

I used to save CAL a thousand pounds of fuel per leg; finding the best FL, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, being smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. Now, it's "burn baby, burn".
I used to call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready at the gate. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system, now I sit and watch as the miscues pile up.
I used to fly sick. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, on the worst day of the month.
I am an army of One.

I used to start the APU at the last possible moment. Now my customers enjoy extreme comfort.
I used to let the price of fuel at out-stations affect my fuel orders. I still do.
I used to cover mistakes by operations. Now I watch them unfold.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival, to make us the best. Now I do it for the rampers and agents who need the bonus money....but this too may change.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays for bad weather. Now I collect overs, number 35 in line for takeoff.

I am on a new mission - to demonstrate that misguided leadership of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by bean counters (an oxymoron). With acts of omission, not commission, I am a one-man wrecking crew - an army of One. My mission used to be to make CAL rich. Now it's to make CAL pay.

When they furlough more pilots than the rest, pilots that cost them 60 cents on the dollar - I will make them pay.
When they under-staff bases and over-work reserves to keep pilots downgraded, down-flowed, or downtrodden - I will make them pay.
When over-booked customers are denied boarding system wide, while jets are parked in the desert - I will make them pay.
When they force pilots, who have waited 12 years to become captains, to be FOs again - I will make them pay.
When they ask CAL pilots to show leadership at Express, and then deny them longevity - I will make them pay.
When they recall F/As for the summer, just to furlough them again in the fall like migrant workers - I will make them pay.
When they constantly violate the letter and spirit of our contract - a contract that's a bargain by any measure, and force us to fight lengthy grievances - I will make them pay.

My negotiating committee speaks for me, but I act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the bean counters that made me. Are you listening? This mercenary has a lot of years left with this company; how long can you afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract, I'm looking for a culture of commitment and caring. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for CAL again. Until then, I am an Army of One...And I'm not alone!
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Old 8th Sep 2004, 13:55
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co pilot - thanks indeed it was!
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