LONDON TUBE DRIVERS ON PILOTS PAY!
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Pilots clearly do not understand the health risks that train drivers face, against the risk of picking up a STD down route, train drivers face the most appalling risks.
Quote from the Evening Standard:
DRIVERS BITTEN BY FLEAS GET £500
A flea infestation on some London Underground trains has resulted in cash compensation for drivers who say they have been bitten and suffered allergic reactions. OOERR
Tube chiefs have settled out-of-court claims of up to £500 each. Drivers most at risk are on the District line but Northern line trains are also believed to be affected. Well what a surprise, is there a link between the two most slowest and unreliable lines and the fleas. We want to know. Perhaps the drivers are too busy scratching themsleves to make sure the trains run to time.
Lorna Williard, of Thompsons Solicitors which represents drivers' union Aslef, said: "It is a disgrace that LU drivers are expected to work in such conditions, stuck in flea-infested cabs. If the fleas are in the cabs then they could conceivably get into the carriages, too." Yuck.
Gary Sheppard, operations manager of Westminster City Council's pest control business unit, which is not involved with the Tube's problem, said: "Some people can experience a violent reaction to a flea bite and it can make them feel quite ill." He said the most likely culprit is the cat flea or human flea. "It could also be a rat flea. It is a possibility because of the rats and mice living in the tunnels,". For the full story from The Evening Standard click here and for more on animals on the tube skip along to my page here.
Quote from the Evening Standard:
DRIVERS BITTEN BY FLEAS GET £500
A flea infestation on some London Underground trains has resulted in cash compensation for drivers who say they have been bitten and suffered allergic reactions. OOERR
Tube chiefs have settled out-of-court claims of up to £500 each. Drivers most at risk are on the District line but Northern line trains are also believed to be affected. Well what a surprise, is there a link between the two most slowest and unreliable lines and the fleas. We want to know. Perhaps the drivers are too busy scratching themsleves to make sure the trains run to time.
Lorna Williard, of Thompsons Solicitors which represents drivers' union Aslef, said: "It is a disgrace that LU drivers are expected to work in such conditions, stuck in flea-infested cabs. If the fleas are in the cabs then they could conceivably get into the carriages, too." Yuck.
Gary Sheppard, operations manager of Westminster City Council's pest control business unit, which is not involved with the Tube's problem, said: "Some people can experience a violent reaction to a flea bite and it can make them feel quite ill." He said the most likely culprit is the cat flea or human flea. "It could also be a rat flea. It is a possibility because of the rats and mice living in the tunnels,". For the full story from The Evening Standard click here and for more on animals on the tube skip along to my page here.
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Captain Sensible - you are entirely correct! I've been qualified to drive trains for 11 years. I'm passed on about a dozen types. There is a common level of knowldge reqired about rules,regulations, routes and signalling but a vast difference in the level of handling skill required between a tube train and a 2500 ton coal train! Again, driving a high speed express requires a different style.
There is some commonality between the two jobs like anti-social hours and being hunched over a set of controls all day (or night) but that's where it ends.
Having as I mentioned previously, the PRIVILEDGE of my mates jumpseat on his Virgin 744, I've had the opportunity to see you guys at work.
I don't know how it actually feels when you handle a big jet but, I am certainly aware of the amount of knowledge you need to retain and how you not only have to fly the plane but MANAGE it, and do all of this just as well during a crisis - that's the big difference!
The passengers respect the men up front - and so they sould because, it is you - and only you - who can make the difference between a smooth touchdown or a ball of fire when things go wrong.
We merely come to a stand in the middle of nowhere with the punters damanding more free booze!
That's why you should command a salary with 6 figures in it.
Crappy Modem - We would indeed welcome you with open arms into the driving cab. But only with pre arranged authority, a cab pass and an Inspector to ride with you!
......and finally
The selection criteria is:-
Min age 21 Max 45
Height between 5'4" and 6'4"
Ability to pass a psychometric test.
Good eyesight (glasses permitted)
the address is ......
Virgin Trains Recruitment
Meridian
85 Smallbrook Queensway
Birmingham
B5 4HA
Tel 0121 654 7014.
[This message has been edited by flange lubricator (edited 18 March 2001).]
There is some commonality between the two jobs like anti-social hours and being hunched over a set of controls all day (or night) but that's where it ends.
Having as I mentioned previously, the PRIVILEDGE of my mates jumpseat on his Virgin 744, I've had the opportunity to see you guys at work.
I don't know how it actually feels when you handle a big jet but, I am certainly aware of the amount of knowledge you need to retain and how you not only have to fly the plane but MANAGE it, and do all of this just as well during a crisis - that's the big difference!
The passengers respect the men up front - and so they sould because, it is you - and only you - who can make the difference between a smooth touchdown or a ball of fire when things go wrong.
We merely come to a stand in the middle of nowhere with the punters damanding more free booze!
That's why you should command a salary with 6 figures in it.
Crappy Modem - We would indeed welcome you with open arms into the driving cab. But only with pre arranged authority, a cab pass and an Inspector to ride with you!
......and finally
The selection criteria is:-
Min age 21 Max 45
Height between 5'4" and 6'4"
Ability to pass a psychometric test.
Good eyesight (glasses permitted)
the address is ......
Virgin Trains Recruitment
Meridian
85 Smallbrook Queensway
Birmingham
B5 4HA
Tel 0121 654 7014.
[This message has been edited by flange lubricator (edited 18 March 2001).]
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I see from Friday's Daily Mail that, in an article entitled "The change of class", according to new research, teachers have slipped down a rung on the social scale.
So where do we, as pilots, fit in to the new order? In Section 1 perhaps (Higher managerial and professional occupations) along with the doctors and lawyers?
Or Section 5 (Lower supervisory and technical occupations) with chemical process workers and railway construction workers?
Or even Section 7 (Routine occupations) with other drivers and cleaners?
So where do we, as pilots, fit in to the new order? In Section 1 perhaps (Higher managerial and professional occupations) along with the doctors and lawyers?
Or Section 5 (Lower supervisory and technical occupations) with chemical process workers and railway construction workers?
Or even Section 7 (Routine occupations) with other drivers and cleaners?
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there's people here working at one of those Kwik Fit type places fitting tires and ehxausts that earn 25% more than I do!
Good job I do it for love (or is that hours....?)
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they bought their tickets - they knew what they were getting into
Good job I do it for love (or is that hours....?)
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they bought their tickets - they knew what they were getting into
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Sorry to say this, but when a traindriver makes more thann I do, tough luck for me. I don't get frustrated by this. Of course we carry a lot of responsability, but I don't see myself or most other pilots as upper class academic skilled people. We just learned a skill and improve that during our whole career. It really doesn't take that much brain to become a pilot, admit it! The thing we probably have above standard is motivation and a great sense for responsability. But it says already enough if traindrivers are able to unite themselves better than airline pilots when the s**t hits the fan, doesn't it? If we are not able to form a group with the same goal, how do you want to force the employers to rise the payscale then? Indeed, as mentioned earlier, we are just enemies of ourselves and I reckon this situation will always remain. So we really are in a take-it-or-leave-it situation.
I regret this of course, but that's just the way it is.
Cheers.
I regret this of course, but that's just the way it is.
Cheers.
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Dr Jekyll Median is around £21 700.
The Mil Pilots should read this thread. So many seem to feel that they are better off going to the airlines, when it's clear they should be joining London Underground!
It's interesting to note that train drivers/tube drivers can earn considerably more than most graduates, junior doctors, legal aid lawyers, teachers, nurses etc. Supply and demand was bound to create a situation like this. If, as the government wants, 50% of the population go into tertiary education then qualifications are meaningless whilst there is nobody to do the real work because everyone thinks that their degree entitles them to a living. Many quality jobs now require a post grad or 2.1 because everybody's got a degree.
Pilot's prices are likely to freeze in the event of a US led recession. Just read on Ceefax that there's a report saying execs are cutting back on flying Business Class. The effect will be felt as lay offs start and holidays and business flights are cancelled. I'm not sure I'd want to be in the training system right now.
[This message has been edited by Paul Wesson (edited 18 March 2001).]
The Mil Pilots should read this thread. So many seem to feel that they are better off going to the airlines, when it's clear they should be joining London Underground!
It's interesting to note that train drivers/tube drivers can earn considerably more than most graduates, junior doctors, legal aid lawyers, teachers, nurses etc. Supply and demand was bound to create a situation like this. If, as the government wants, 50% of the population go into tertiary education then qualifications are meaningless whilst there is nobody to do the real work because everyone thinks that their degree entitles them to a living. Many quality jobs now require a post grad or 2.1 because everybody's got a degree.
Pilot's prices are likely to freeze in the event of a US led recession. Just read on Ceefax that there's a report saying execs are cutting back on flying Business Class. The effect will be felt as lay offs start and holidays and business flights are cancelled. I'm not sure I'd want to be in the training system right now.
[This message has been edited by Paul Wesson (edited 18 March 2001).]
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I can completely comiserate with Superpilut. Most people, including my mum (especially my mum) think that pilots earn stacks. I too earn less than a tube driver, and for that matter less than I did in my previous job. I do my job because I enjoy flying and also the satisfaction of getting pax from a to b ontime, safely etc. It gives me the feeling that I have fulfilled my job description to the best of my abilities. But reading other pilots' posts of woe that they only earn £50k makes me wonder if I am maybe being a bit of a pushover. I don't even earn half that much, and I work for the world's favourite airline (yeah!). As a pilot I'm happy with what I get. As a graduate I should be earning more. I don't need a degree to do my job. But it is time that the airlines realised that if they are going to require a degree from their applicants they are going to have to pay graduate wages.
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Can't keep out of this any longer i am afraid. There are similarities with train drivers and pilots. Similar responsibility,(a to b as safe as you can...) similar ultra strict medicals, regular cab rides/sim checks, similar unsociable hours, bi-annual rules exams, similar management types trying to squeeze the maximum amount of work out of us for very little thanks or respect, similar pressure on getting away on time regardles of the reason for delay, once trained its easy to do, you earn your money when things start to go wrong. The list can go on and on. Pilots really do need a lot of different skills for flying a plane. Many a time i have watched in terrible weather at some side-on landings at gatwick and wondered how they do it. Real skill, thats how. A train drivers skill comes in judging speed and distance. Driving a train is simple, lever for power on/off and a lever for stopping. Easy. Its getting and staying there thats the hard bit though. Took me 3 years to qualify, at a cost of over 30k to the company, thats passing all exams first time. I work a 35 hr 4 day week and get 26100 a year, thats without sundays or overtime of which there is plenty about. As i say, you earn your money when things go wrong, i.e. fatalites, break-downs, delays everyday, cr*ppy public moaning and constantly having a go, bad weather, thick fog, anyone fancy driving with me at 125mph in zero visibility..? And no, we are not allowed to slow down for bad weather. Leaves on the line, think of black ice on the road. Now think about driving at high speed on the black ice,(100mph +) now think of stopping quickly on the ice.....no-can-do, you just slide until the brakes finaly start to bite. Scary i can tell you. Try doing it with 2500 tonnes of stone behind you now...!!!! I could go on and on. I have been driving for 8 years now and i reckon i am confident enough to go for my ppl which is what i am doing now. As for a commercial pilot, i dont think i am good enough for that. Also it costs a lot of cash to get in at the pointy end so there goes my bid for freedom........What i am trying to get across here is that we all have our own skills and responsibilites. At the end of the day we go home. Just getting home at the end of the day means we are all doing something right. If anyone in the south/midlands would like to have the 'jumpseat' in the cab in my train, let me know, its not impossible to let people in the cab and its easily arranged.
What i am doing here is not comparing drivers against pilots. Thats very wrong to do, just pointing out a few similarities so go easy on me........
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Its not the fall that kills you...Its the sudden stop.....
What i am doing here is not comparing drivers against pilots. Thats very wrong to do, just pointing out a few similarities so go easy on me........
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Its not the fall that kills you...Its the sudden stop.....
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Dr Jekyll
I agree that the median salary is around £21,500. But this so called 'average earnings' figure is heavily distorted upwards by the very few 'mega earners' on £1 million a year (such as those in The City that the popular press loves to go on about).
The government, by constantly quoting this 'average earnings' figure of £21,500 is making a fundamental mistake, as it merely serves to p*** off the majority of the population, who are, in reality, earning a lot less than this.
I agree that the median salary is around £21,500. But this so called 'average earnings' figure is heavily distorted upwards by the very few 'mega earners' on £1 million a year (such as those in The City that the popular press loves to go on about).
The government, by constantly quoting this 'average earnings' figure of £21,500 is making a fundamental mistake, as it merely serves to p*** off the majority of the population, who are, in reality, earning a lot less than this.
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When you look around and see the way people live, its very hard to understand how they achieve it. The average house is heading towards 100K. Thats not a nice place, thats average, a bit like the average wage. However the two just don't add up.
As a flying instructor on £13,500/annum Im in another league altogether. Its just cost me a years salary to do an IR. Another two months salary for an MCC, and the list goes on.
The people replying to this thred do at least seem to be approaching the average wage, but I can tell you there are a hell of a lot of us wannabies in an entirely different financial situation.
Sorry to moan but lack of money can be somewhat stessful. We deserve more!!
As a flying instructor on £13,500/annum Im in another league altogether. Its just cost me a years salary to do an IR. Another two months salary for an MCC, and the list goes on.
The people replying to this thred do at least seem to be approaching the average wage, but I can tell you there are a hell of a lot of us wannabies in an entirely different financial situation.
Sorry to moan but lack of money can be somewhat stessful. We deserve more!!
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If the 21,700 figure is actually a mean, rather than median, it would indeed be distorted by very high earners.
This is why I'm curious to know the median.
Put it this way, if the entire working population lined up in order of income, what would the guy in the middle be earning?
This is why I'm curious to know the median.
Put it this way, if the entire working population lined up in order of income, what would the guy in the middle be earning?
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Now this will probably see my a** get bitten off, but what the hell.
Some here describe a train drivers job as "just pushing buttons" and "sitting for hours looking at a straight line". Ehhh, excuse me for a moment guys but that to me seems quite a lot like a pilot job under normal operating circumstances. Surely, there are instances where the job carries a little more than that, but I will assume that driving a train also entails a bit more at times. Add to that the lingering fear these guys must have for a nutter to jump out in front of them when life gets too ****ty. Far as I can remember there ain't nobody who's ever committed suicide by jumping in front of an aircraft.
Cheer up guys, if you like your job do it ! Pilots do not fart sunshine, much as some would like to belive it. The pilot job is not what it used to be, there are massive numbers of pilots out there willing to work ****ty hours for a modest pay. If you are working for money only, go to IT or study law or something, don't drive aircraft for a living.
Me, I have a job that I like in the industry and may pay is not nearly what an average pilot in the company commands. Do I complain or make comparisons to guys in IT ? Nope, if that was the case I'd consider a career change. But I actually enjoy what I do, and to making big bucks is not the ultimate goal in life. Having fun and being healthy is.
Recently took a jumpseat ride, and despite for the 16 mins to TOC and the last 20 mins from TOD the guys were actually just sitting there looking at dials and buttons, much the same as a train drive I presume. Apart from the captain that is, who was catching up on some reading. That is not my idea of fun, just like driving a train is not either. Spending days away from home in ever changing hotel rooms don't strike me as a great deal of fun either, and that is why I have decided to stay on the ground.
Some here describe a train drivers job as "just pushing buttons" and "sitting for hours looking at a straight line". Ehhh, excuse me for a moment guys but that to me seems quite a lot like a pilot job under normal operating circumstances. Surely, there are instances where the job carries a little more than that, but I will assume that driving a train also entails a bit more at times. Add to that the lingering fear these guys must have for a nutter to jump out in front of them when life gets too ****ty. Far as I can remember there ain't nobody who's ever committed suicide by jumping in front of an aircraft.
Cheer up guys, if you like your job do it ! Pilots do not fart sunshine, much as some would like to belive it. The pilot job is not what it used to be, there are massive numbers of pilots out there willing to work ****ty hours for a modest pay. If you are working for money only, go to IT or study law or something, don't drive aircraft for a living.
Me, I have a job that I like in the industry and may pay is not nearly what an average pilot in the company commands. Do I complain or make comparisons to guys in IT ? Nope, if that was the case I'd consider a career change. But I actually enjoy what I do, and to making big bucks is not the ultimate goal in life. Having fun and being healthy is.
Recently took a jumpseat ride, and despite for the 16 mins to TOC and the last 20 mins from TOD the guys were actually just sitting there looking at dials and buttons, much the same as a train drive I presume. Apart from the captain that is, who was catching up on some reading. That is not my idea of fun, just like driving a train is not either. Spending days away from home in ever changing hotel rooms don't strike me as a great deal of fun either, and that is why I have decided to stay on the ground.
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Let's not beat about the bush. Tube drivers are cr*p. Almost all apply and release the brakes 207 times on each approach to a station. Skill? My cats could do better.
You may think "I couldn't drive along the Circle Line at 0.000001 mph thus maximizing the irritation to passengers who need all their £100k City salaries to afford the ride."
It's awesome to watch but in fact it's easy. Just practice an impersonation of a sack of dead hamsters chucked against the power controller and you could do just as well. You probably could go even slower and brake more times.
Pilots are underpaid for the level of monitored performance they have to deliver.
Unless of course you are a Virgin Check Captain... 
You may think "I couldn't drive along the Circle Line at 0.000001 mph thus maximizing the irritation to passengers who need all their £100k City salaries to afford the ride."
It's awesome to watch but in fact it's easy. Just practice an impersonation of a sack of dead hamsters chucked against the power controller and you could do just as well. You probably could go even slower and brake more times.
Pilots are underpaid for the level of monitored performance they have to deliver.
Unless of course you are a Virgin Check Captain...
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Right, I'm fed up of this now. Stop slagging off every other profession in the world. If you don't think that you are paid "what you are worth" either
a. Go on strike
b. Get a better paid job.
I don't think that a. will solve anything, so lets examine b. If all you pilots who are moaning quit tomorrow, exactly how long would it take your airline to find (not train)a replacement? Abot 3.5 seconds. There are hundreds of wannabes who will pay for their own training and work for "peanuts". Learn about supply and demand - it is lesson one in economics - and stop comparing your incredibly hard work to everyone elses.
a. Go on strike
b. Get a better paid job.
I don't think that a. will solve anything, so lets examine b. If all you pilots who are moaning quit tomorrow, exactly how long would it take your airline to find (not train)a replacement? Abot 3.5 seconds. There are hundreds of wannabes who will pay for their own training and work for "peanuts". Learn about supply and demand - it is lesson one in economics - and stop comparing your incredibly hard work to everyone elses.
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My only whinge about this is the people who constantly sell our profession short. If you really believe being a pilot is that easy, then your not doing it quite right. God knows there are still some bloody nasty snakes out there that can jump out of the grass and bite you at anytime, ask the BA crew from the Nairobi flight for one example. If you are stupid enough to come on pprune and say how easy the job is then you deserve to be underpaid, and there's probably one or two manager's who are looking at your comments for an excuse to pay you even less.
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Juliet November
I know of at least one nutter who comitted suicide by running into the intake of a BA 747 at the threshold of R10 at POS about 15 years ago.
There are probably other incidents elsewhere.
Several instances of pax trying to open aircraft doors or windows at various points of flight, too.
I know of at least one nutter who comitted suicide by running into the intake of a BA 747 at the threshold of R10 at POS about 15 years ago.
There are probably other incidents elsewhere.
Several instances of pax trying to open aircraft doors or windows at various points of flight, too.