View Poll Results: How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?
Only if you're on long haul
135
11.23%
Not very. We're just 'drivers' locked in our cockpits
436
36.27%
It is still glamorous... or at least the idea of it is
494
41.10%
Have you seen my roster? Zzzz...
165
13.73%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1202. This poll is closed
How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?
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Goaf,
I think you mised the point. It's not the flying that's a pain, it's all the BS from management and the random shift patterns that are tiring. That plus the long hours in an anti-social enviroment. I too started in air taxi's, air shows and crop spraying. Great fun, a wonderful learning ground, but the laws of financial survival took over and I moved to the aluminium tube brigade.
What really is a pi@%er is that the established airlines demand from their recruits:
1. high education, often university,
2. good social and man/team management skills,
3. ability to think clearly and absorb data from various sources, process it and make a correct decision in a milli second.
4. good hand/feet eye coordination and a good medical condition,
5. the ability to sleep on demand and perform to the highest standard on minimum sleep.
6. show good potential to move up into management, (be a yes man ),
7. to accept being treated like a 'naughty little jonny', when you should just shut up and do your job even when you can forsee it is all going to be a can of worms, i.e. do not use any of the above qualities,
8. amidst all this maintain a high morale, strong company loyalty, a high attitude of company mindiness, forget you've been shafted more times than you can remember, and promote the same attitude in all new recruits you meet.
Apart from that flying's a fine profession. In the private executive jet world I experienced great resepct from the passengers.They employed me and flew with me and trusted me to deliver them safely to their destination. They were kind, courtious & appreciative. A world apart from airline managment where the crew, and FTL's, are part of the machine and a very irritating limiting factor in maximising the profit there from.
I think you mised the point. It's not the flying that's a pain, it's all the BS from management and the random shift patterns that are tiring. That plus the long hours in an anti-social enviroment. I too started in air taxi's, air shows and crop spraying. Great fun, a wonderful learning ground, but the laws of financial survival took over and I moved to the aluminium tube brigade.
What really is a pi@%er is that the established airlines demand from their recruits:
1. high education, often university,
2. good social and man/team management skills,
3. ability to think clearly and absorb data from various sources, process it and make a correct decision in a milli second.
4. good hand/feet eye coordination and a good medical condition,
5. the ability to sleep on demand and perform to the highest standard on minimum sleep.
6. show good potential to move up into management, (be a yes man ),
7. to accept being treated like a 'naughty little jonny', when you should just shut up and do your job even when you can forsee it is all going to be a can of worms, i.e. do not use any of the above qualities,
8. amidst all this maintain a high morale, strong company loyalty, a high attitude of company mindiness, forget you've been shafted more times than you can remember, and promote the same attitude in all new recruits you meet.
Apart from that flying's a fine profession. In the private executive jet world I experienced great resepct from the passengers.They employed me and flew with me and trusted me to deliver them safely to their destination. They were kind, courtious & appreciative. A world apart from airline managment where the crew, and FTL's, are part of the machine and a very irritating limiting factor in maximising the profit there from.
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Airline pilot ain't what it used to be.
Back in the good old days, you would actually be respected by management as they understood that your skills made or broke the company. Today you are not worth the one cent in the dollar that your salary costs the "Punters" for their ticket
Nowadays, all the poor GA pilot's that have been screwed over for years are very happy to take your job. They have been conditioned to accept less than the "Dole" for their skills, as one day they may make it to "Airline Pilot"
They only think about today and not the future or how they will survive on a pension equivalent to the "Dole" when they retire.
Wake up and smell the Roses, have a look at who lives in the big houses, and drives the "Beamer", you will find that it's Airline management or your mates from high school who did apprenticeships in the building industry.
Good luck
Back in the good old days, you would actually be respected by management as they understood that your skills made or broke the company. Today you are not worth the one cent in the dollar that your salary costs the "Punters" for their ticket
Nowadays, all the poor GA pilot's that have been screwed over for years are very happy to take your job. They have been conditioned to accept less than the "Dole" for their skills, as one day they may make it to "Airline Pilot"
They only think about today and not the future or how they will survive on a pension equivalent to the "Dole" when they retire.
Wake up and smell the Roses, have a look at who lives in the big houses, and drives the "Beamer", you will find that it's Airline management or your mates from high school who did apprenticeships in the building industry.
Good luck
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V - 5
Airlines would love to schedule crews to a week of earlies or lates
(Ryanair do and you see more compliments than complaints on these patterns). However, CAP371 does not allow this to happen.
CAP371 has not stayed abreast with the industy and its Crews, its about 10 years behind the times. Crews dont mind working hard but any increased productivity should be traded against more time off.
The current norm is work crews harder and give you less time off.
Airlines would love to schedule crews to a week of earlies or lates
(Ryanair do and you see more compliments than complaints on these patterns). However, CAP371 does not allow this to happen.
CAP371 has not stayed abreast with the industy and its Crews, its about 10 years behind the times. Crews dont mind working hard but any increased productivity should be traded against more time off.
The current norm is work crews harder and give you less time off.
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All my life I was dreaming and working on becoming a proff pilot. But from the days I got closer to aviation world, I realise how rotten it is, from the fellow pilots who despise you for making life harder, to management creating enormous obstacles for selection, It’s like you f***n must be born with enormous experience.
Don’t forget those how made it in old good days, it was a looooot easier for you, than for us standing at the doorsteps hated and despised from all sides:
You know, I'll try my chances little longer, if fail, well than f**k Ryanair’s and other like, I’ll save for Mig 25, and start my own drug delivering business.
GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL.
Thanks for encouraging posts.
Don’t forget those how made it in old good days, it was a looooot easier for you, than for us standing at the doorsteps hated and despised from all sides:
You know, I'll try my chances little longer, if fail, well than f**k Ryanair’s and other like, I’ll save for Mig 25, and start my own drug delivering business.
GOOD LUCK TO YOU ALL.
Thanks for encouraging posts.
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RAT 5. I did not mis the point. I was responding to a specific point V-5 made about things happening on the flight deck.
On the much wider points that you have made I have considerable sympathy. I am sure that you would agree that the aptitude testing of new entry aircrew is essential. It is not the entry standards that are the problem. It is waht happens after that. Working on the flight deck is one of the most disciplines working environments that can possibly exist. The whole purpose of the endless training and checking is to ensure absolute compliance with the approved operating procedures at all times. That is one reason why air transport has become such a safe form of transport.
But many of the aircrew that I know and have known have also felt that it is not an environment that helps their personal creativity. The more pressure is put on their rosters the more the frustration. I am sure that you will find numerous industrial psychologists that can explain this point much more clearly than I can.
Rather than engage in a theoretical debate about it what I will do is recount a story about the time some years ago when I was a manager responsible for aircrew. The company concerned was always under financial pressure. Every area of the company was under constant pressure to produce savings and efficiency improvements. It fell to me to find some large ones.
I found one that was very attractive. It would generate large savings for the company and it would settle a long standing grievance of the crews at the same time. It involved the introduction od a system of preference rostering. The preferences being declared by the crews themselves. I proposed to test it through a ninety day experimental period in wehich there would be no risks to the company or to the crews. But the rostering staff (working on paper at that time) were wholly opposed to it and created a ferocious backlash about their loss of control over their ability to determine the rosters of the crew.
I was forced to withdraw and was moved to a different job in the company. At that time the company did not get its savings and the crew remained dissatisfied.
Around 18 months later the idea was revived as a test bed for a new computerised rostering system then being evaluated. In a ninety day period all the ideas on which I had been working were fully proved and then introduced. The numbers on establishment were reduced by natural wastage and the crew satisfaction increased markedly.
What that told me is that there is always another way to the one that authoritarian crewing departments might want to use. After all their only role is to ensure that there are names to allocate to the flight.
In my many years in aviation I have learnt that the best rosters for an efficiency point of view and a staff satisfaction point of view whether air or ground crew are all based on a pattern of 5 days on followed by 3 days off. On the days on part the roster has to be similar for all 5 days. It has to be all earlies, all mid day shifts or all lates.
I strongly suspect that with the very early starts and very late finishes these days a pattern of 5 earlies, 3off, 5 mids, 3 off, 5 lates, 3 off would be both practical and popular. In aircrew terms it would certainly generate enough working hours and it would be stable.
What I strongly suspect is that the software generated in the rostering system has been created round cost alone. A few yeras ago I did some work with a very large airline in the fiels of artificial intelligence in developing rostering systems. It is hellishly complicated but what did emerge was that it is essential for the roster creators (usually lackeys on behalf of management) and the roster operators (crew) to share a common sense of purpose. Sounds difficult but it is not impossible. Crews do want to work but they do not want to be pushed around. Nor should they. Equally managements do need crews who have beileve that the company cares for them. ALL THE BEST COMPANIES IN THE WORLD CARE FOR THEIR STAFF.
I hope this helps to push the debate along.
On the much wider points that you have made I have considerable sympathy. I am sure that you would agree that the aptitude testing of new entry aircrew is essential. It is not the entry standards that are the problem. It is waht happens after that. Working on the flight deck is one of the most disciplines working environments that can possibly exist. The whole purpose of the endless training and checking is to ensure absolute compliance with the approved operating procedures at all times. That is one reason why air transport has become such a safe form of transport.
But many of the aircrew that I know and have known have also felt that it is not an environment that helps their personal creativity. The more pressure is put on their rosters the more the frustration. I am sure that you will find numerous industrial psychologists that can explain this point much more clearly than I can.
Rather than engage in a theoretical debate about it what I will do is recount a story about the time some years ago when I was a manager responsible for aircrew. The company concerned was always under financial pressure. Every area of the company was under constant pressure to produce savings and efficiency improvements. It fell to me to find some large ones.
I found one that was very attractive. It would generate large savings for the company and it would settle a long standing grievance of the crews at the same time. It involved the introduction od a system of preference rostering. The preferences being declared by the crews themselves. I proposed to test it through a ninety day experimental period in wehich there would be no risks to the company or to the crews. But the rostering staff (working on paper at that time) were wholly opposed to it and created a ferocious backlash about their loss of control over their ability to determine the rosters of the crew.
I was forced to withdraw and was moved to a different job in the company. At that time the company did not get its savings and the crew remained dissatisfied.
Around 18 months later the idea was revived as a test bed for a new computerised rostering system then being evaluated. In a ninety day period all the ideas on which I had been working were fully proved and then introduced. The numbers on establishment were reduced by natural wastage and the crew satisfaction increased markedly.
What that told me is that there is always another way to the one that authoritarian crewing departments might want to use. After all their only role is to ensure that there are names to allocate to the flight.
In my many years in aviation I have learnt that the best rosters for an efficiency point of view and a staff satisfaction point of view whether air or ground crew are all based on a pattern of 5 days on followed by 3 days off. On the days on part the roster has to be similar for all 5 days. It has to be all earlies, all mid day shifts or all lates.
I strongly suspect that with the very early starts and very late finishes these days a pattern of 5 earlies, 3off, 5 mids, 3 off, 5 lates, 3 off would be both practical and popular. In aircrew terms it would certainly generate enough working hours and it would be stable.
What I strongly suspect is that the software generated in the rostering system has been created round cost alone. A few yeras ago I did some work with a very large airline in the fiels of artificial intelligence in developing rostering systems. It is hellishly complicated but what did emerge was that it is essential for the roster creators (usually lackeys on behalf of management) and the roster operators (crew) to share a common sense of purpose. Sounds difficult but it is not impossible. Crews do want to work but they do not want to be pushed around. Nor should they. Equally managements do need crews who have beileve that the company cares for them. ALL THE BEST COMPANIES IN THE WORLD CARE FOR THEIR STAFF.
I hope this helps to push the debate along.
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T.Goaf.
Sorry about that; no darts intended.
You make some good points, but; always there are buts:
I disagree with 5/3. There is a great desire within ej to adopt the 5/3 system from RYR in preference to their own 6/3(7/2). I can tell them that this is no sun-blessed ideal. The 5/3 boys say that after day 4 you are tired; after day 5 your are knackered. They know it from the inside. It is just that the ej roster is so Sh@#%y that anything semingly better will do. Fallecy.
The ground staff shift workers 4 & 4. 2 earlies 2 lates 4 days off. I have long advoacted that this system will produce the productivity required of flight crew without the social distress and tiredness of traditional rosters. 5/3 is not suitable for european short haul. What is happening at the moment is papering over the cracks and tinkering with things. A total radical re-think is required.
By the way; I have a friend in a major carrier where there is a computer based bid line system. This allows you to bid what you wish; not a line but type of duties: i.e. weekends, lates earlies, long haul, short haul, night stops, intercontinental etc. As long as your bid includes 75 flight hours credit it will be considered. The computer sorts it out with no guarantees. It seems very succesful and the crews are generally happy. there is no favouritism, the company achieves it's budget and the crews resepct the system and have high morale. Sounds good to me, but when suggested to UK short haul airlines it was rejected out of hand. They had no understanding of Larks & Owls, or those with children or not etc etc.
Closed minds make for sad people and even worse employers.
Sorry about that; no darts intended.
You make some good points, but; always there are buts:
I disagree with 5/3. There is a great desire within ej to adopt the 5/3 system from RYR in preference to their own 6/3(7/2). I can tell them that this is no sun-blessed ideal. The 5/3 boys say that after day 4 you are tired; after day 5 your are knackered. They know it from the inside. It is just that the ej roster is so Sh@#%y that anything semingly better will do. Fallecy.
The ground staff shift workers 4 & 4. 2 earlies 2 lates 4 days off. I have long advoacted that this system will produce the productivity required of flight crew without the social distress and tiredness of traditional rosters. 5/3 is not suitable for european short haul. What is happening at the moment is papering over the cracks and tinkering with things. A total radical re-think is required.
By the way; I have a friend in a major carrier where there is a computer based bid line system. This allows you to bid what you wish; not a line but type of duties: i.e. weekends, lates earlies, long haul, short haul, night stops, intercontinental etc. As long as your bid includes 75 flight hours credit it will be considered. The computer sorts it out with no guarantees. It seems very succesful and the crews are generally happy. there is no favouritism, the company achieves it's budget and the crews resepct the system and have high morale. Sounds good to me, but when suggested to UK short haul airlines it was rejected out of hand. They had no understanding of Larks & Owls, or those with children or not etc etc.
Closed minds make for sad people and even worse employers.
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RAT 5. There are always buts in everything. 4 on 4 off is a very social roster and always popular with those who can get on to it. But it can be very expensive for the company. To find out whether it can work you have to overlay it against the actual workload requirement. It starts to fall down if there are daily differences or differences across the day. For example Gatwick has a huge long haul arrivals and departure peak in the morning. If you overlay a 4 on 4 off roster against that you get inefficiencies. So what you do is overlap it with a 5/3 or with part-time staff.
The sysytem with which I got entangled was based on staff declaring preferences. The fear was that some staff would not want to work what were thought to be unpopular routes. In practice it was easy to meet all preferences. There are plenty of people who want to work weekends, for example. There are others who do not funcrtiom well at the end of the day but are very happy with early starts.
What I would say needs to happen is to create a shared objective along the lines rovemnets etc. with open minds. No time limit to discussuions.""Of course the pilots want to see the company doing well. But the pilots want a working environment that enables them to work at their best and have a civilised life. Conflicts serve no good so let us talk about changes, experiments, improvemnets etc."
I fully recognise that open minds can be hard to achieve but when you do get to that state it can be very rewarding. But it can never be done against the clock.
The sysytem with which I got entangled was based on staff declaring preferences. The fear was that some staff would not want to work what were thought to be unpopular routes. In practice it was easy to meet all preferences. There are plenty of people who want to work weekends, for example. There are others who do not funcrtiom well at the end of the day but are very happy with early starts.
What I would say needs to happen is to create a shared objective along the lines rovemnets etc. with open minds. No time limit to discussuions.""Of course the pilots want to see the company doing well. But the pilots want a working environment that enables them to work at their best and have a civilised life. Conflicts serve no good so let us talk about changes, experiments, improvemnets etc."
I fully recognise that open minds can be hard to achieve but when you do get to that state it can be very rewarding. But it can never be done against the clock.
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Great Poll.
I have to say that it must still be highly desirable. The simple laws of economics of supply and demand back this up.
The world always seemed a better place when one was younger, but is it or have the gripes that come free with old age quietly crept in? Terms and conditions seem to erode, allowances seem to erode and it pay seems to erode, but that’s not restricted to aviation. When you think of all the other jobs one could be doing with the qualifications needed to be an airline pilot (a couple of A levels maybe and some hard work to regurgitate info in multi-guess form) - the pay and terms and conditions don't seem all that bad.
One thing to remember though. Passing experience is one thing, but one should never influence the ambitions and dreams of so many. Anyone who wants to be an Airline pilot should get help and support from the team he / she is trying to join.
I have family and friends in the business and they all say that if you are prepared to work hard - it's a wonderful life. Isn't that the same for any job?
I have to say that it must still be highly desirable. The simple laws of economics of supply and demand back this up.
The world always seemed a better place when one was younger, but is it or have the gripes that come free with old age quietly crept in? Terms and conditions seem to erode, allowances seem to erode and it pay seems to erode, but that’s not restricted to aviation. When you think of all the other jobs one could be doing with the qualifications needed to be an airline pilot (a couple of A levels maybe and some hard work to regurgitate info in multi-guess form) - the pay and terms and conditions don't seem all that bad.
One thing to remember though. Passing experience is one thing, but one should never influence the ambitions and dreams of so many. Anyone who wants to be an Airline pilot should get help and support from the team he / she is trying to join.
I have family and friends in the business and they all say that if you are prepared to work hard - it's a wonderful life. Isn't that the same for any job?
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If pilots are tired before the end of their working week then the current rotas are puting lives at risk! Simple as that.
Who will want to fly Easy/ Ryanair when one ploughs in to the deck because PF takes a micro sleep on final approach?
Who will want to fly Easy/ Ryanair when one ploughs in to the deck because PF takes a micro sleep on final approach?
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'Bollocks' is the only word I can think for such a stupid remark V-5!
Your responsibilities as a professional crew member deny you the 'right' to micro sleep on final approach.
Don't blame Easy or Ryanair, blame yourself! Either you are up to it or you are not. Can't hack it? Get a job driving taxis...far worse, or don't accept the roster if you genuinely believe you are not up to it.
Doh!
Your responsibilities as a professional crew member deny you the 'right' to micro sleep on final approach.
Don't blame Easy or Ryanair, blame yourself! Either you are up to it or you are not. Can't hack it? Get a job driving taxis...far worse, or don't accept the roster if you genuinely believe you are not up to it.
Doh!
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JTL.
A fine sentiment, but usually unrealistic. To refuse a roster, as I have done on various occaisions, you need a strong position and character. It is not uncommon, when telling crewing that you will not perform a dutyfor physilogical reasons, to be confronted with he direct question, "are you refusing to work/fly/the duty?" This will then go on your record. It takes a brave one to say yes.
Goaf,
A not surprising result, and highly desirable. When crews can work when they want and still produce what the company wants, that sounds like a WIN WIN. There will always be compromises, but in general everyone is happy. With computer systems, should management wish to tear themselves away from the pencil and rubber era and open up their minds to the new world, it should be possible. Of course the dinasours in rostering do not want to relinquish control. They enjoy pulling strings and watching you dance. I've heard off, but not yet experienced, an airline where there was a friendly and respectful relationship bewteen crews and rostering/crewcontrol. It was even worse for cabin crew. Of 10 airlines, 6 had senior MD's with an abject hatred of pilots. As bad attitudes drift downwards the whole area was infected with poison.
All this talk of fixed patterns, i.e. 6/3, 5/3 or whatever, is still because rostering want some control. 5 days of constant work with a changing sleep pattern will cause tiredness and reduce the quality of the 3 days off to probably 1 day & recuperation. It also leads to the problem that the roster is fixed weeks in advance and if you need a day off for something special which crops up in the middle of your 5 days, then you are stuffed. Give crewing 5 day blocks and they will own you body & soul for 24 hours a day. It has happened yet been denied. Within those 5 days they can do what they like with you at short notice. Any free time can be destroyed by changes. With such a system there need to be many built in safe-guards, but that will mean crewing losing control and they will not agree.
Another problem with such fixed patterns is they might work woth one type of operation but not with another. Crewing may want 6/3 rigidity but demand flixibility as well. I worked for a european s/h charter airline with a 4/3 system. It never worked because you would always have had the same days on/off. (SOmehow it seemed that every weekend was on, though). They then started L/H and tried to use the same system. Total chaos. They tried to say days down route were 3 OFF. There was massive reluctance to devise a preference system. No one has ever sat down with the crews and tried to work out a WIN WIN system, as you seem to suggest is needed. What are they so afraid of. Of all the departemnts with in airline, I IMHO the pilots are the ones with the greatest interest and desire for the company to succeeed and prosper, thereby giving them a longterm career. Somehow there is a feeling upstairs, that the pilots want to milk the cow. What a total travesty of the truth and so typically hypocritical. No airline has gone under due to crew demands. Butr that is another topic.
Back to rostering patterns; there neees to be some mutual repsect for each others needs, but to need a holiday day to guarantee a dental appointment is the ludicrous depth to which it gets. Try telling that to an office whalla. They just come or go late/early.
Hey hey. Off to enjoy my 30 hours off. 0000 - 0600.
A fine sentiment, but usually unrealistic. To refuse a roster, as I have done on various occaisions, you need a strong position and character. It is not uncommon, when telling crewing that you will not perform a dutyfor physilogical reasons, to be confronted with he direct question, "are you refusing to work/fly/the duty?" This will then go on your record. It takes a brave one to say yes.
Goaf,
A not surprising result, and highly desirable. When crews can work when they want and still produce what the company wants, that sounds like a WIN WIN. There will always be compromises, but in general everyone is happy. With computer systems, should management wish to tear themselves away from the pencil and rubber era and open up their minds to the new world, it should be possible. Of course the dinasours in rostering do not want to relinquish control. They enjoy pulling strings and watching you dance. I've heard off, but not yet experienced, an airline where there was a friendly and respectful relationship bewteen crews and rostering/crewcontrol. It was even worse for cabin crew. Of 10 airlines, 6 had senior MD's with an abject hatred of pilots. As bad attitudes drift downwards the whole area was infected with poison.
All this talk of fixed patterns, i.e. 6/3, 5/3 or whatever, is still because rostering want some control. 5 days of constant work with a changing sleep pattern will cause tiredness and reduce the quality of the 3 days off to probably 1 day & recuperation. It also leads to the problem that the roster is fixed weeks in advance and if you need a day off for something special which crops up in the middle of your 5 days, then you are stuffed. Give crewing 5 day blocks and they will own you body & soul for 24 hours a day. It has happened yet been denied. Within those 5 days they can do what they like with you at short notice. Any free time can be destroyed by changes. With such a system there need to be many built in safe-guards, but that will mean crewing losing control and they will not agree.
Another problem with such fixed patterns is they might work woth one type of operation but not with another. Crewing may want 6/3 rigidity but demand flixibility as well. I worked for a european s/h charter airline with a 4/3 system. It never worked because you would always have had the same days on/off. (SOmehow it seemed that every weekend was on, though). They then started L/H and tried to use the same system. Total chaos. They tried to say days down route were 3 OFF. There was massive reluctance to devise a preference system. No one has ever sat down with the crews and tried to work out a WIN WIN system, as you seem to suggest is needed. What are they so afraid of. Of all the departemnts with in airline, I IMHO the pilots are the ones with the greatest interest and desire for the company to succeeed and prosper, thereby giving them a longterm career. Somehow there is a feeling upstairs, that the pilots want to milk the cow. What a total travesty of the truth and so typically hypocritical. No airline has gone under due to crew demands. Butr that is another topic.
Back to rostering patterns; there neees to be some mutual repsect for each others needs, but to need a holiday day to guarantee a dental appointment is the ludicrous depth to which it gets. Try telling that to an office whalla. They just come or go late/early.
Hey hey. Off to enjoy my 30 hours off. 0000 - 0600.
Last edited by RAT 5; 27th Jun 2004 at 11:56.
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JTL :
Are you for real my friend?
No matter how hard you think you are, if you are tired there is a chance you will micro sleep. This had been confidentially reported within the company I used to work for. A crew had reason to think that they had both gone to sleep on final approach!!!
It's all very well being a brave soul but you are responsible for a large number of people. Your above comment does not suggest a very responsible view on this subject.
Check out the latest issue of Flight International, a Fed Ex jet descended below the glide leaving the crew seriously injured. The cause of the accident was largely attributed to crew fatigue.
Your responsibilities as a professional crew member deny you the 'right' to micro sleep on final approach.
No matter how hard you think you are, if you are tired there is a chance you will micro sleep. This had been confidentially reported within the company I used to work for. A crew had reason to think that they had both gone to sleep on final approach!!!
It's all very well being a brave soul but you are responsible for a large number of people. Your above comment does not suggest a very responsible view on this subject.
Check out the latest issue of Flight International, a Fed Ex jet descended below the glide leaving the crew seriously injured. The cause of the accident was largely attributed to crew fatigue.
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JTL:
I dont think you are a "professional pilot" at all, just a wind-up merchant, with motives that one can only guess at.
If you were, you'd know the insidious nature of fatigue and that, by definition, fatigue, as opposed to mere tiredness, is not something over which one has conscious control.
If you could control your response to it, it wouldn't be fatigue.
I am sorry, but I dont think you know what you are talking about.
Fatigue is such a serious issue in airline rostering right now that it deserves the greatest concern. Recent proposals for a European-wide rostering regime by an MEP, (who has now lost his seat), Mr. Simpson, confirm this.
These were not based on ANY objective science at all and represented a substantial degradation on the UK's existing CAP371, itself prone to abuse as recent alterations to it by the CAA confirm.
It is a matter of deep concern that a substantial operator from the UK is able to flout even this document and its protections against multiple early starts by virtue of being a company incorporated somewhere else, (Ireland).
JTL, your assertion that individuals should stand up and defy their employing corporation proves to me the dubious nature of your post. You just are not living in the real world to say this. The only safe response from an employee is a collective one and I urge everyone to be involved to achieve rostering criteria that, as a basic minimum, are based on objective scientific criteria for the prevention of fatigue.
Fatigue is a killer, and every seasoned professional pilot knows it.
I dont think you are a "professional pilot" at all, just a wind-up merchant, with motives that one can only guess at.
If you were, you'd know the insidious nature of fatigue and that, by definition, fatigue, as opposed to mere tiredness, is not something over which one has conscious control.
If you could control your response to it, it wouldn't be fatigue.
I am sorry, but I dont think you know what you are talking about.
Fatigue is such a serious issue in airline rostering right now that it deserves the greatest concern. Recent proposals for a European-wide rostering regime by an MEP, (who has now lost his seat), Mr. Simpson, confirm this.
These were not based on ANY objective science at all and represented a substantial degradation on the UK's existing CAP371, itself prone to abuse as recent alterations to it by the CAA confirm.
It is a matter of deep concern that a substantial operator from the UK is able to flout even this document and its protections against multiple early starts by virtue of being a company incorporated somewhere else, (Ireland).
JTL, your assertion that individuals should stand up and defy their employing corporation proves to me the dubious nature of your post. You just are not living in the real world to say this. The only safe response from an employee is a collective one and I urge everyone to be involved to achieve rostering criteria that, as a basic minimum, are based on objective scientific criteria for the prevention of fatigue.
Fatigue is a killer, and every seasoned professional pilot knows it.
Last edited by loaded1; 25th Jun 2004 at 22:00.
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RAT 5
I know of no Airline Staff that do 4 on 4 off, especially early and late mixes. I know plenty who do 2 days and 2 nights (12 hours)
then 3 off, and quiet a few who do lates /early combinations of 8 hrs then 2 days off.
Cant see a problem with crews doing 5 and 3, you might be tired on day 5 but so am i after 14 days with only 1 day free. and many of you are paid to work on days off. There's a major difference to being tired and fatigued
I know of no Airline Staff that do 4 on 4 off, especially early and late mixes. I know plenty who do 2 days and 2 nights (12 hours)
then 3 off, and quiet a few who do lates /early combinations of 8 hrs then 2 days off.
Cant see a problem with crews doing 5 and 3, you might be tired on day 5 but so am i after 14 days with only 1 day free. and many of you are paid to work on days off. There's a major difference to being tired and fatigued
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Mr. Angry,
A pleasure to hear from you again on this subject. It was a couple of years ago, when threads about pilot workload and its affects first brought us together.
In answer to you saying that you know of no pilots who do 4 On 4 Off. and therefore imply it is impossible. Why not? Its not having been done before does not make it a bad idea. All I'm saying is that it is very common for shift workers, including those on the ground within airlines, and does not seem to cause the knackering effects of a normal aircrew roster. (I stand to be corrected).
Nobody should be tired (and never fatigued) on a regular basis when doing a normal job, especially one where a lapse of concentration can have calamitous consequences. Of course there is a difference between tiredness & fatigue, but it should not be the norm. This is the 21st century and the EU workers directives have improved things for most workers, execpt in public transport. I sympathise that you are tired with 1 day off in 14. I would be too, and it is not reasonable that you should work so, but it is irrelevent to the discussion. It smacks of the old worn out response from the senior pilots when young F/O's winged about this or that; "Don't worry son. Just put up with it and your time will come. I did it, so you have to."
Just because one person in the team has a rough time of it, is not a reason not to allow improvements in another link in the chain. By raising standards in one area it should help lift standards in all others. Level up not not down!
A pleasure to hear from you again on this subject. It was a couple of years ago, when threads about pilot workload and its affects first brought us together.
In answer to you saying that you know of no pilots who do 4 On 4 Off. and therefore imply it is impossible. Why not? Its not having been done before does not make it a bad idea. All I'm saying is that it is very common for shift workers, including those on the ground within airlines, and does not seem to cause the knackering effects of a normal aircrew roster. (I stand to be corrected).
Nobody should be tired (and never fatigued) on a regular basis when doing a normal job, especially one where a lapse of concentration can have calamitous consequences. Of course there is a difference between tiredness & fatigue, but it should not be the norm. This is the 21st century and the EU workers directives have improved things for most workers, execpt in public transport. I sympathise that you are tired with 1 day off in 14. I would be too, and it is not reasonable that you should work so, but it is irrelevent to the discussion. It smacks of the old worn out response from the senior pilots when young F/O's winged about this or that; "Don't worry son. Just put up with it and your time will come. I did it, so you have to."
Just because one person in the team has a rough time of it, is not a reason not to allow improvements in another link in the chain. By raising standards in one area it should help lift standards in all others. Level up not not down!
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For me , the main cause of fatigue is boredom. There's so little to do, and so much time to do it, that I find it difficul to motivate myself after ten hours staring out the window. There's only so much you can talk about with someone that you'd probably never see outside the job, and the papers only take an hour or so to read. Bring on in-flight entertainment for flight crews.....though I've seen some interesting stuff on the cameras...
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Rostering (and PAY...or lack thereof) is probably the main bane of aircrew...........Tech. and Cabin.
But WHY??
I believe that "rostering" or "crew scheduling" is seen as a menial chore, by an upper echelon who have litle - or NO - understanding of the PHYSIOLOGICAL effects of working at altitude. nor of the PHYSCHOLOGICAL effects of not sleeping in the SAME abode each night.
As adaptive as humans are, our bodies are simply not PHYSICALLY CAPABLE of working at reduced O2 levels, or prolonged periods on demand!
But THIS is what is required of aircrew!
And hence the reason WHY not EVERYBODY can pass an aircrew P.E.!!
Pax subject themselves to this "denial" when they FEEL like it..or as neccessitated by Company demands.
But in the relatively benign surrounds afforded you (the travelling passenger) by sit-down, lay-back & relax, "wait to be waited upon" atmosphere, the hours that the aircraft crew work seem relatively p!ss easy - perhaps MORE especially so because YOU are relaxed, and away from your usual work environment!
But feeling the NEED to be assured that you are SAFE, in this new & strange environment, you mistake the relaxed, confident, professionalism of the crew as an indication that travelling on an aeroplane at (say) 35,000' ( about 7 MILES..or 12 kilometres ABOVE the Earth) and around 500 miles per hour..or 800 kph....is as safe as jumping on a council 'bus!
Well, WE wish it was as well!!!
But the plain and simple truth is - it IS NOT.
But flying has now become so "routine", that most of us accept it as just another form of transportation.
....Until one ploughs in.
Unfortunately, an occurencce that will INcrease.
So, to be sure that YOU aren't one of the VICTIMS, choose your airline carefully!!
But WHY??
I believe that "rostering" or "crew scheduling" is seen as a menial chore, by an upper echelon who have litle - or NO - understanding of the PHYSIOLOGICAL effects of working at altitude. nor of the PHYSCHOLOGICAL effects of not sleeping in the SAME abode each night.
As adaptive as humans are, our bodies are simply not PHYSICALLY CAPABLE of working at reduced O2 levels, or prolonged periods on demand!
But THIS is what is required of aircrew!
And hence the reason WHY not EVERYBODY can pass an aircrew P.E.!!
Pax subject themselves to this "denial" when they FEEL like it..or as neccessitated by Company demands.
But in the relatively benign surrounds afforded you (the travelling passenger) by sit-down, lay-back & relax, "wait to be waited upon" atmosphere, the hours that the aircraft crew work seem relatively p!ss easy - perhaps MORE especially so because YOU are relaxed, and away from your usual work environment!
But feeling the NEED to be assured that you are SAFE, in this new & strange environment, you mistake the relaxed, confident, professionalism of the crew as an indication that travelling on an aeroplane at (say) 35,000' ( about 7 MILES..or 12 kilometres ABOVE the Earth) and around 500 miles per hour..or 800 kph....is as safe as jumping on a council 'bus!
Well, WE wish it was as well!!!
But the plain and simple truth is - it IS NOT.
But flying has now become so "routine", that most of us accept it as just another form of transportation.
....Until one ploughs in.
Unfortunately, an occurencce that will INcrease.
So, to be sure that YOU aren't one of the VICTIMS, choose your airline carefully!!
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Well it is always amaizing how fast we forget why we are in this job. It is not for the money, not for the wild sex parties, not for the glamer. We do this because we love to fly airplanes. Yes it is more like computer programer now and we are locked in the cockpit. It is still a great job and I love going to work. Yes it helps making 200,000. I love the challange ever day to fly better than I did the day before, To make a better landing, To give the passengers a smother flight. Yes it has changed a lot but it is still the most fun I could have with my pants on and I hope I am able to continue flying for many years to come
1) Anyone claiming to be a pilot, who has not become quite fatigued after a long duty day/night, has never been a professional civilian or military pilot.
2) Have the British/Irish CAA ever listed fatigue as the primary cause of an accident?
3) The (US) NTSB finally admitted that major flightcrew fatigue was the primary factor after a charter DC-8 crew nearly died after a night duty period, resulting in a horrifying cartwheel crash, which had followed a day with not much sleep. The approach at NAS Guantanamo Cuba is reportedly quite demanding. There is no doubt that the Safety Board had trouble with the FAA regulators living with the (for decades) long-overdue findings.
Many Ppuners have solid experience in aviation-others feel that academic knowledge of various subjects, or a wannabe attitude is just as valid! We know b***s**t when we see it. One of our FOs has a father-in-law who teaches academia at a famous US aviation college. He is also allegedly a knw-it-all who has no experience with the fast-changing situational awareness needed for practical applications, i.e. operational flying in multi-turbine "cross-country" conditions. 
2) Have the British/Irish CAA ever listed fatigue as the primary cause of an accident?
3) The (US) NTSB finally admitted that major flightcrew fatigue was the primary factor after a charter DC-8 crew nearly died after a night duty period, resulting in a horrifying cartwheel crash, which had followed a day with not much sleep. The approach at NAS Guantanamo Cuba is reportedly quite demanding. There is no doubt that the Safety Board had trouble with the FAA regulators living with the (for decades) long-overdue findings.
Many Ppuners have solid experience in aviation-others feel that academic knowledge of various subjects, or a wannabe attitude is just as valid!
We know b***s**t when we see it. One of our FOs has a father-in-law who teaches academia at a famous US aviation college. He is also allegedly a knw-it-all who has no experience with the fast-changing situational awareness needed for practical applications, i.e. operational flying in multi-turbine "cross-country" conditions.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 3rd Jul 2004 at 03:36.