View Poll Results: How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?
Only if you're on long haul
135
11.23%
Not very. We're just 'drivers' locked in our cockpits
436
36.27%
It is still glamorous... or at least the idea of it is
494
41.10%
Have you seen my roster? Zzzz...
165
13.73%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 1202. This poll is closed
How desirable is the 'job' (jet airline pilot) these days?
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A the risk of sounding like a stuck record, the job isn´t what it was even 10 years ago, let alone 30 years ago. Since 9/11 or whatever you want to call it, the "bull****" has got to a point where many of my colleagues have had enough. This, on top of the poor management and rapidly declining pay is forcing me to look at other opportunities. We all start out as starry eyed dreamers, but when you have a mortgage or two to pay, as well as a family to support, you start to begrudge a company that seems happy to pay cabin crew well above the going rate for the job and yet begrudges paying me.
(edited for bad grammar)
(edited for bad grammar)
Last edited by maxy101; 13th Jun 2004 at 14:04.
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Why I hate it...
I still enjoy flyin the "sausage" into FRA or MUC without any prompts from ATC, coz I read their minds, I still enjoy a short visual app at DXB at night, but I hate this job .
I am an expat since '95, flew for 3 diff airlines but I got the same s--t treatment by the Americans, Brits, Australians and Southafricans in the FLT OPS management of these companies. I was always treated like a fart in the cockpit. This killed my love for flying. I am only pushing for the check these days. I cannot understand why these guys treat everybody that is not a native English speaker like second-hand human being...
I know doctors, engineers are also discriminated, but by far not as much as pilots.
There are a lot of fine American, British, Australian and Southafrican blokes I fly with, hard living, hard working like myself. These are the usual pilots a guy meets in a bar in any of these 4-star anonymos hotels. But I always had to eat s--t when I was being interviewed by the bosses. Or hav to put up with a smirk when they look at my CV or passport...
I am an expat since '95, flew for 3 diff airlines but I got the same s--t treatment by the Americans, Brits, Australians and Southafricans in the FLT OPS management of these companies. I was always treated like a fart in the cockpit. This killed my love for flying. I am only pushing for the check these days. I cannot understand why these guys treat everybody that is not a native English speaker like second-hand human being...
I know doctors, engineers are also discriminated, but by far not as much as pilots.
There are a lot of fine American, British, Australian and Southafrican blokes I fly with, hard living, hard working like myself. These are the usual pilots a guy meets in a bar in any of these 4-star anonymos hotels. But I always had to eat s--t when I was being interviewed by the bosses. Or hav to put up with a smirk when they look at my CV or passport...
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This thread is fast becoming a realist's view on what it is really like in the profession.
Some are quick on the trigger with "well, ya don't have the commitment" when they read messages from those with doubts about the job that they are doing or even the job that they are thinking of doing.
It seems that very few enjoy it. Those that do, must either have no other life outside the job or have a very understanding partner. I cannot understand how they can have children and enjoy a stable family life.....
Some are quick on the trigger with "well, ya don't have the commitment" when they read messages from those with doubts about the job that they are doing or even the job that they are thinking of doing.
It seems that very few enjoy it. Those that do, must either have no other life outside the job or have a very understanding partner. I cannot understand how they can have children and enjoy a stable family life.....
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Wow, us professionals seem to be in two camps those that love flying and will step on any one to climb that greasy pole! Those who have quickly realised that all the bs is not worth it but are now so entrenched that there is no way out. This is then compounded by the most inadequate management I have ever experienced in any industry. The way we pilots treat our fellow professionals when we move into management is an absolute discrace. Where is our collective self respect? Why have we allowed this to happen! Senior company managements will only promote to positions of pilot power those that will not challange their visions of the way forward. Hence we get what we deserve .Poor pay and conditions constantly eroded quality of life all that contribute to the destruction of our home life. why are there no managers out there with vision and honour who exercise power with responsibility and I meanRESPONSIBILTY prepared to fight their corner in front of bean counters etc. The only reason company managers treat pilots the way they do is because WE LET THEM
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Christ on a bike... I am not leaving my airline. Sounds like hell out there!
swish266: Sorry to hear it, however its not the case in my experience.
Beats working for a mainland European carrier, someone from the UK would never get a look in there
swish266: Sorry to hear it, however its not the case in my experience.
Beats working for a mainland European carrier, someone from the UK would never get a look in there
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Hi there,
I´ve been flying for some 10 years soon. It has taken me around the world and I´ve been paid for it. The salery and the pension is quite good - actually a lot better than at many other professions.
After 10/11. Sure things have been put under pressure by customers/employers. We are now working harder and our CoS are constantly being looked into.
What the future will bring - nobody really knows for sure.
I remember why I choose to become a pilot. I wanted to fly those big birds - it was that simple. Later on I realised that there were lots of benifits to it - and a few downturns as well. Thats life.
Wish you all a good life.
Yeager
I´ve been flying for some 10 years soon. It has taken me around the world and I´ve been paid for it. The salery and the pension is quite good - actually a lot better than at many other professions.
After 10/11. Sure things have been put under pressure by customers/employers. We are now working harder and our CoS are constantly being looked into.
What the future will bring - nobody really knows for sure.
I remember why I choose to become a pilot. I wanted to fly those big birds - it was that simple. Later on I realised that there were lots of benifits to it - and a few downturns as well. Thats life.
Wish you all a good life.
Yeager
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I think conditions will improve one day, but it will cost a lot.
It will be when a LCC piles-in somewhere. The voice recorder seals it "this is number 6 today mate, I can hardly keep my eyes open". We all done the theory on probability in CRM did we not? It will happen, it just takes time.
I would not give it up though.
trip
It will be when a LCC piles-in somewhere. The voice recorder seals it "this is number 6 today mate, I can hardly keep my eyes open". We all done the theory on probability in CRM did we not? It will happen, it just takes time.
I would not give it up though.
trip
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Love it. end of discussion.
12500 hrs and time to squeeze in another 12500.
A bad day at work is still better than a good day in the general pop.
In fact i dont have bad days at work, i do what i love. Cant buy that.
Well ok i love my girlfriend , and do her as well but thats a different post
12500 hrs and time to squeeze in another 12500.
A bad day at work is still better than a good day in the general pop.
In fact i dont have bad days at work, i do what i love. Cant buy that.
Well ok i love my girlfriend , and do her as well but thats a different post
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Aviation has something for everybody.
If you do it only for the money, you will get bored very quickly and your standards/enthusiasm may drop.
Family life is compromised but, any job that would pay the same would ask you to put in a lot of hours as well.
Would I do it again? Yes, I would but would want to work for an airline were my roster would not be at the expense of my children while they are still at home.
If you do it only for the money, you will get bored very quickly and your standards/enthusiasm may drop.
Family life is compromised but, any job that would pay the same would ask you to put in a lot of hours as well.
Would I do it again? Yes, I would but would want to work for an airline were my roster would not be at the expense of my children while they are still at home.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Sadddest aviator sums up my 30 + years and 16.5 K + hours in G.A. as a charter, commuter and instructor, and subsequently domestic short haul... international long haul..and back to (foreign) domestic short haul.
You can shove those "back-of the-clock, all nighters" where the sun don't shine!!
In my modest opinion, we are getting paid DIDDLY SQUAT, in comparison to the so-called "airline managers" of today, for the cr@p we have to put up with, to get to - and maintain - our positions!
It's not just a matter of doing "x" number of years in General Aviation (akin to an apprenticeship/degree course) before moving on to an airline job
The TRUTH is MOST G.A. pilots will NOT make airlines.....the cull rate is exceptionally (when compared to Uni dropout/failure rates), very, very high!
Probably around the 85% FAILURE rate.
Having "cracked" airlines, a pilot is then REQUIRED to maintain standards that are specifically tested for the entire rest of his/her career - regardless of past, historical performance.
Standards in the areas of practical knowledge, medical fitness, manipulative ability, and personal presentation, on a DAILY BASIS.
This has ALWAYS been the case for us.
But meanwhile, we have seen the rise of people who contribute absolutely NOTHING toward the revenue production, taking an increasingly greater role in the running of airlines - people whose presence wouldn't be missed if they didn't show up for work for 12 months - unlike that of a pilot, who would NEED to have his work covered from Day #1 of his absence.
And so THAT is what is primarily p!ss!ng me off these days!
Pull ALL of those desk jockeys out of the office for a week/month/year, and see what affect that (DOES NOT) have on the day-to-day ops and profitability of the operation....then try doing the same thing with us.
Pilots could SUCCESSFULLY run an airline without the "managers" - but "managers" wouldn't get the show off the ground from day #1, without pilots!
You can shove those "back-of the-clock, all nighters" where the sun don't shine!!
In my modest opinion, we are getting paid DIDDLY SQUAT, in comparison to the so-called "airline managers" of today, for the cr@p we have to put up with, to get to - and maintain - our positions!
It's not just a matter of doing "x" number of years in General Aviation (akin to an apprenticeship/degree course) before moving on to an airline job
The TRUTH is MOST G.A. pilots will NOT make airlines.....the cull rate is exceptionally (when compared to Uni dropout/failure rates), very, very high!
Probably around the 85% FAILURE rate.
Having "cracked" airlines, a pilot is then REQUIRED to maintain standards that are specifically tested for the entire rest of his/her career - regardless of past, historical performance.
Standards in the areas of practical knowledge, medical fitness, manipulative ability, and personal presentation, on a DAILY BASIS.
This has ALWAYS been the case for us.
But meanwhile, we have seen the rise of people who contribute absolutely NOTHING toward the revenue production, taking an increasingly greater role in the running of airlines - people whose presence wouldn't be missed if they didn't show up for work for 12 months - unlike that of a pilot, who would NEED to have his work covered from Day #1 of his absence.
And so THAT is what is primarily p!ss!ng me off these days!
Pull ALL of those desk jockeys out of the office for a week/month/year, and see what affect that (DOES NOT) have on the day-to-day ops and profitability of the operation....then try doing the same thing with us.
Pilots could SUCCESSFULLY run an airline without the "managers" - but "managers" wouldn't get the show off the ground from day #1, without pilots!
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Pilots Run an Airline?.
Kaptin M.
Sorry mate I can nay agree with your last paragraph.
I do agree that the industry is (in my opinion) Roo-Ted.
As long as there is no solidarity between pilots, as long as we have ego's , as long as industry will play one pilot off against another, or play union against contract,as long as pilots prostitute themselves for their objective, as long as we let the industry use individual contracts, as long as we accept less, we will continue to get Roo-Ted.
Most pilots I know couldn't even read a balance sheet, and I have seen it so many times when pilots of position, steer a airline in a particular direction over A/C type.
I still like to fly, man I still like it like hell, I can still remember going out to the aeroclub all those years ago, early in the morning, smelling the cut grass, the dew on the aircraft, the apprehension preceeding a flt,
the faces of my old instructors, and their particular characters.
Now you realise how confused I am, call me a romantic, call me a fool,? to go to work,away from my family for weeks on end, get paid less now than I was in 96, am on my 4th individual contract, yep I feel really used and cheap.
Then as my 86 year old Dad say's to me, living your dream can be tough?.
Me, I am looking to get out, I will try to put something back into the industry, maybe at 52 I could do an instructors rating,and go out to the aeroclub early in the morning, and relive the dream?.
Get paid peanuts though, but get to smell the grass.
In one of the other posts, I think I said:
Imagine what would happen if we just stopped operating all the aluminium for a couple of days, I am talking everything that flies?.
Dreams are free huh.
Call me a Whore.
Me ,I'm off to six bells, to smell the hops.
PS: Danny a good one.
Sorry mate I can nay agree with your last paragraph.
I do agree that the industry is (in my opinion) Roo-Ted.
As long as there is no solidarity between pilots, as long as we have ego's , as long as industry will play one pilot off against another, or play union against contract,as long as pilots prostitute themselves for their objective, as long as we let the industry use individual contracts, as long as we accept less, we will continue to get Roo-Ted.
Most pilots I know couldn't even read a balance sheet, and I have seen it so many times when pilots of position, steer a airline in a particular direction over A/C type.
I still like to fly, man I still like it like hell, I can still remember going out to the aeroclub all those years ago, early in the morning, smelling the cut grass, the dew on the aircraft, the apprehension preceeding a flt,
the faces of my old instructors, and their particular characters.
Now you realise how confused I am, call me a romantic, call me a fool,? to go to work,away from my family for weeks on end, get paid less now than I was in 96, am on my 4th individual contract, yep I feel really used and cheap.
Then as my 86 year old Dad say's to me, living your dream can be tough?.
Me, I am looking to get out, I will try to put something back into the industry, maybe at 52 I could do an instructors rating,and go out to the aeroclub early in the morning, and relive the dream?.
Get paid peanuts though, but get to smell the grass.
In one of the other posts, I think I said:
Imagine what would happen if we just stopped operating all the aluminium for a couple of days, I am talking everything that flies?.
Dreams are free huh.
Call me a Whore.
Me ,I'm off to six bells, to smell the hops.
PS: Danny a good one.
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The most basic change in our job as a pilot has been the PERSONALITY type required in the cockpit. Automation has increased, safey has increased and aircraft are better designed. Also, since airspace has become more crowded eg: LHR, FRA, we are having increasingly less and less say on the flight path of the aircraft itself: our descent is planned, our speeds are planned, the way we tackle an approach is planned: practically everything is dictated by people outside the cockpit. The role of a pilot is now more to do with monitoring and managing, and cross checking other peoples decisions. Add to that, outside of the cockpit, the pilots have less of a say than before in company's decisions and the way rosters are planned.
We are having to become more of yes-men to cope.
I think this is what is annoying pilots the most, especially the established ones.
We are having to become more of yes-men to cope.
I think this is what is annoying pilots the most, especially the established ones.
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Kaptin M.... I hear what you’re saying ( kind of ) but I’m sure that you could put it more succinctly – I know that you’re really a team player at heart but what you’ve written above didn’t come across as such (imho).
As such, I too am with 'Crack' in that I concur that without our office-bound brethren we’re stuffed.
From my own personal experience, the Commercial and / or Financial / Accounts / Engineering / Crewing / Operations / Systems / etc. departments exhibit a dedication and put-in hours ( i.e. “Working Time Directive; what’s that ?!” ) that would put many of us flying crew to shame, and they regularly do this under enormous pressure; for which they get little or no thanks or recognition.
Nb. I’ve been an airline manager and as such I speak from experience.
Furthermore, many of our ground based brethren are paid salaries that we would find derisory ( yet they’re often far better academically qualified than we are ) albeit that I will concede that ‘their jobs’ aren’t tied to regular sim checks and / or medical renewals – though they, just like us, tend to lose them if they screw-up ( remembering that they’re cheaper / easier to fire than we are...... apparently ?! ).
In any event, without all these people working-away behind the scenes we ( flying crew ) would find it very hard to 1) keep flying, and 2) get paid for doing it.
You say that airlines are full of pilots who could do a better job. Well I beg to differ, i.e. I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of pilots ( and I know quite a few ) who could attempt the finer points of aircraft leasing, fuel hedging, treasury / Forex management, corporate law, contract law, employment law, raising Venture Capital, obtaining and keeping an Operating License / AOC, etc, etc, etc..... i.e. it all looks easy until you have to do it for real yourself ( thus somewhat akin to flying an aeroplane - with a layman saying that pilots are nought more than 'button pushers' )..... I’m sure you get my point.
That said, I’ll agree with you that some airlines are top heavy with ‘Barclays Bankers’ ( though fortunately not my lot ) – and wherein it’s those airlines that are ‘lean, mean, well managed and that respect ALL of their staff’ which tend to win through at the end of the day ( at least I hope so ).
In summary “There is no ‘I’ in team !”
W.r.t. the title of this thread: I too will agree that the T&C’s in aviation ain’t what they used to be, but I’ll ask you this...... next time you’re on your way to work, should you become stuck in a bit of rush-hour / rat race traffic, take a look around you and ask which, if any, of the booted and suited individuals in the cars adjacent would you swap jobs with ?
For myself the answer is NONE – I love my job and wherein, for all the recent post 9/11 irritations, it’s still something that gives me a thrill to be able to do – and it sure has hell beats the rat race !
As such, I too am with 'Crack' in that I concur that without our office-bound brethren we’re stuffed.
From my own personal experience, the Commercial and / or Financial / Accounts / Engineering / Crewing / Operations / Systems / etc. departments exhibit a dedication and put-in hours ( i.e. “Working Time Directive; what’s that ?!” ) that would put many of us flying crew to shame, and they regularly do this under enormous pressure; for which they get little or no thanks or recognition.
Nb. I’ve been an airline manager and as such I speak from experience.
Furthermore, many of our ground based brethren are paid salaries that we would find derisory ( yet they’re often far better academically qualified than we are ) albeit that I will concede that ‘their jobs’ aren’t tied to regular sim checks and / or medical renewals – though they, just like us, tend to lose them if they screw-up ( remembering that they’re cheaper / easier to fire than we are...... apparently ?! ).
In any event, without all these people working-away behind the scenes we ( flying crew ) would find it very hard to 1) keep flying, and 2) get paid for doing it.
You say that airlines are full of pilots who could do a better job. Well I beg to differ, i.e. I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of pilots ( and I know quite a few ) who could attempt the finer points of aircraft leasing, fuel hedging, treasury / Forex management, corporate law, contract law, employment law, raising Venture Capital, obtaining and keeping an Operating License / AOC, etc, etc, etc..... i.e. it all looks easy until you have to do it for real yourself ( thus somewhat akin to flying an aeroplane - with a layman saying that pilots are nought more than 'button pushers' )..... I’m sure you get my point.
That said, I’ll agree with you that some airlines are top heavy with ‘Barclays Bankers’ ( though fortunately not my lot ) – and wherein it’s those airlines that are ‘lean, mean, well managed and that respect ALL of their staff’ which tend to win through at the end of the day ( at least I hope so ).
In summary “There is no ‘I’ in team !”
W.r.t. the title of this thread: I too will agree that the T&C’s in aviation ain’t what they used to be, but I’ll ask you this...... next time you’re on your way to work, should you become stuck in a bit of rush-hour / rat race traffic, take a look around you and ask which, if any, of the booted and suited individuals in the cars adjacent would you swap jobs with ?
For myself the answer is NONE – I love my job and wherein, for all the recent post 9/11 irritations, it’s still something that gives me a thrill to be able to do – and it sure has hell beats the rat race !
Last edited by Devils Advocate; 15th Jun 2004 at 04:10.
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I think Devils advocate puts it very well.
I never made it to the point where I got paid for flying. I got the licence and ratings but somehow fell through the cracks as many do. I've never become quite reconciled to that fact. Unfortunately I never had a back up because of course I knew I would get the 'job' eventually. As a result when my world collapsed around me I was essentially an unskilled worker in a world that demands skills and training. So I sit here tonight in the middle of a twelve hour shift doing a worthless pointless job for just above the minimum wage. I get stress in spades, no job satisfaction and believe you me, incompetent bean counting management is not just prolific in the aviation industry.
They changed the shift roster recently which means we all took a drop in take home of about a hundred a month. Then they wondered why morale was in the gutter! Why do I stay in the job? Well because at my age and with my lack of skills it's all I can get for now. Having a pilot's licence is the most useless thing in the world unless you can fly.
Tomorrow morning as I go home shattered I'll look up at the contrails of the early morning transatlantics and think 'If only'.
Because the truth is that all of the problems pilots have with lousy management and stupid rosters and even being away from home are shared by many if not most on the ground. In this world only the lucky few have an easy ride and get job satisfaction and rewards in equal doses. Long hours and seven day weeks are the norm in many professions these days. Outside the professions where I find myself it's worse. You are at the mercy of every jumped up tosser with a title.
At least for pilots when the cockpit doors close they can carry on doing something they probably enjoy. If you don't enjoy it then why carry on? I do understand that it loses it's glamour and allure very quickly. But at least it had some in the first place. Most jobs are tedious and dull from the start.
So if you think you have it bad think of the likes of me. We take the same if not worse crap with none of the rewards. At least you can still fly. The reason, I presume you took to the trade in the first place?
I never made it to the point where I got paid for flying. I got the licence and ratings but somehow fell through the cracks as many do. I've never become quite reconciled to that fact. Unfortunately I never had a back up because of course I knew I would get the 'job' eventually. As a result when my world collapsed around me I was essentially an unskilled worker in a world that demands skills and training. So I sit here tonight in the middle of a twelve hour shift doing a worthless pointless job for just above the minimum wage. I get stress in spades, no job satisfaction and believe you me, incompetent bean counting management is not just prolific in the aviation industry.
They changed the shift roster recently which means we all took a drop in take home of about a hundred a month. Then they wondered why morale was in the gutter! Why do I stay in the job? Well because at my age and with my lack of skills it's all I can get for now. Having a pilot's licence is the most useless thing in the world unless you can fly.
Tomorrow morning as I go home shattered I'll look up at the contrails of the early morning transatlantics and think 'If only'.
Because the truth is that all of the problems pilots have with lousy management and stupid rosters and even being away from home are shared by many if not most on the ground. In this world only the lucky few have an easy ride and get job satisfaction and rewards in equal doses. Long hours and seven day weeks are the norm in many professions these days. Outside the professions where I find myself it's worse. You are at the mercy of every jumped up tosser with a title.
At least for pilots when the cockpit doors close they can carry on doing something they probably enjoy. If you don't enjoy it then why carry on? I do understand that it loses it's glamour and allure very quickly. But at least it had some in the first place. Most jobs are tedious and dull from the start.
So if you think you have it bad think of the likes of me. We take the same if not worse crap with none of the rewards. At least you can still fly. The reason, I presume you took to the trade in the first place?
Last edited by jigsawblue; 15th Jun 2004 at 01:41.
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witchdoctor, you have to remember that you may well do it 'for the love of flying' and you may well think that other people here do it for the money, but you have to remember that we all started off with a love of flying and what alot of people are saying here is the job has changed and the terms and conditions have been erroded.
I have no doubt that in 10 years from now you too will look back and remember 'the good old days'.
I have no doubt that in 10 years from now you too will look back and remember 'the good old days'.
On this theme, interesting to note in Flight's article on page 8 this week "EU pilots protest at duty hike; US crash probe cites fatigue" - note the following extract:-
Michael O'Leary, chief executive of Ryanair, says if the new rules affect pilot rostering at all it will be to limit flexibility further "for the most cosseted groups of employees in the world."
It kinda changes the meaning of "cosseted", eh?
No doubt in my mind that the job is not what it used to be, glad I have done it and got the T-shirt but would not recommend any sane person to enter the airline business these days.
Michael O'Leary, chief executive of Ryanair, says if the new rules affect pilot rostering at all it will be to limit flexibility further "for the most cosseted groups of employees in the world."
It kinda changes the meaning of "cosseted", eh?
No doubt in my mind that the job is not what it used to be, glad I have done it and got the T-shirt but would not recommend any sane person to enter the airline business these days.
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fireflybob:
re: Michael O'Leary and "for the most cosseted groups of employees in the world."
If his attitude is an indicator of the way things will be in the future then God help those in the job and those they carry in the back !
re: Michael O'Leary and "for the most cosseted groups of employees in the world."
If his attitude is an indicator of the way things will be in the future then God help those in the job and those they carry in the back !
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Still looks glamorous from here
Sitting behind a desk, with only 7 hours on my PPL, no time to get the studying done and aged 41, it looks pretty glamorous from here.
I fly (at the back) lots in the course of my job and the boys and girls up front have nothing but my admiration for the way they fly me in and out of the little old Isle in awful visibility winds etc., but if anyone fancies a job swap, please e mail me!
Keep it going up there
I fly (at the back) lots in the course of my job and the boys and girls up front have nothing but my admiration for the way they fly me in and out of the little old Isle in awful visibility winds etc., but if anyone fancies a job swap, please e mail me!
Keep it going up there
Grandpa Aerotart
Well!
I started lessons in 1981...23 years/11000 hrs later I have to say that I still love my job.
My first 9 years of full time paid flying was bush flying in PNG...C185, Islanders,C402s, Twotters then Bandits. Then got the 'airline' job and flew DHC7 and F28...just bush flying in bigger aircraft....SHEDLOADS of fun
Then Corporate jets, as a Chief Pilot/C&Ter for a few years...wonderfull fun flying Falcons...but ignorant non aviation management destroyed that company.
I was one of those Management pilots who stood up for my crews, when warranted..I also sacked one and was nano seconds from sacking a second when it became obvious that he was so far up managements arse he was untouchable....as well as incompetent. I ended up getting sacked for sticking to my principles but would do so again...better to die standing than live on your knees.
A year, essentially, unemployed followed although I flew casually in a Conquest 2...great fun and it was very interesting awakening the old single pilot IFR skills...glad I flew that aeroplane as I'd always admired them from afar. I also drove taxis again something I'd done for 5 years when putting myself through PPL/CPL etc. Soul destroying, pityfully paid work.
Now I'm back in the cockpit (B767) for a Asian Carrier doing long haul to Europe via the middle east as well as asian regional flying. Back in the RHS for a little while and loving it.
OK sometimes when I haven't managed enough sleep,for the multitudinous reasons we sometimes don't and it's 6 hrs into an 8hr sector you wonder whether there's more to life...and trying to raise Kolkatta/Mumbai etc can be a losing battle..so I just ignore the pricks...they've got my selcal they'll find me in the end, why stress over it?
And yes I'd happily shoot the morons that come up with the so called 'security' checks at places like LHR which completely waste everyone's time...
BUT!!!
I have the perspective of the recent enforced holiday. I was truly unhappy, even though I was flying a little bit in my own lighty and the Conquest. I like flying jets and I like being an airline pilot.
Family Life?
I am a divorced single parent to a teenage girl. What lifestyle could I offer her if I was driving taxis? If I left flying and did a degree in accounting, teaching, Law, Medicine whatever would she be better off? I have the educational qualifications and brains to do any of those but guess what...I wouldn't be happy. I dont want to be any of those!!!
Yes she whinges sometimes about me being away from home. This is the first longhaul job where I am away for up to 8 days straight. I have a live in amah who looks after Chelsea really well and she is mature beyond her years anyway. She'll head off to a really good Boarding school next year for her final two years of high school, her choice..she's looking forward to it. I could not afford either of those options without the well paid job I have now.
And while I'm away a lot I also get chunks of days at home...we have a good life in a nice house in a safe country with long terms friends close and home/family only 6 hrs away in an ID90 Business class seat!!! Oh and 7 weeks annual leave!!!
In the not to distant future I'll be back in the LHS earning a multiple of 4 x times (net) the aerage gross wage of my country of origin.
Airlines the world over...well the non western end...are finding it more and more difficult to attract qualified professionals to fly the jets they keep ordering from Boeing/Airbus...because aviation is no longer looked upon favourably by the 'instant gratification for minimal effort' average youth of today.
I firmly believe that airlins will have to start competing for pilots soon and there's only one way to do that...attractive packages.
Asia is set to boom huge in the next two decades before I hit mandatory retirement... I can see no options for airline management other than to offer more money to experienced pilots, their cadetship schemes won't come close to keeping up.
Do I have rose tinted glasses?
I don't think so...I have seen every kind of mismanaged f**kup this industry has to offer. There is no reason why I shouldn't be set for a reasonable retirement by my mid 50s...thanks to tax free wages that will go up, I believe, in the next years. I reserve the right however to fly on if health and desire to do so remain..or nick off and sail my boat/fiddle with my lighty!!
But you should hear the whinging and moaning from some of the senior guys where I am. But the whingers eventually move on to 'greener' pastures that turn out the same shade of ****brown as they left and a few years later the moaning starts again...you get those in any industry.
It is, IMO, all a matter of perspective. Pilots who have been a long time in one place (and seen a downturn in T&Cs) believe that better options are out there...well go for it, a change is as good as a holiday as the saying goes.
I always figure though that companies tha pay LOTS do so for a reason. If you think the guys at KA are deliriously happy think again..or the CX guys...HK wears thin on families too and even the KA guys doing shorthaul within the same time zone find they put their families back in Oz or wherever due to schooling/pollution reasons...so they drink to much and bemoan their lot and stack it away for early retirement...if divorce doesn't clean them out at the 11th hour.
But I still see the younger guys from here and Oz busting a gut to get out of here or VB and head off to CX/KA/EK...I've got mates in all those places, we all enjoy our jobs and have various stresses but when we compare what we get, add in the costs of living where we're at there's not a lot in it...I'm happy where I am and they're not unhappy with their choices either....perspective.
It could always be a lot worse...we may not have made it in the first place...and all my mates are aviators. We like to fly..I don't associate with people who are 'monitors' and 'system managers' first and foremost...my mates are aviators who appreciate the clever gadgets in their present mount..and appreciate the limitations of those gadgets.
Oh and some bad news for the people who think they make all the decisions about routing/fuel/ etc...you only think that happens. Those of us who've been around a while have seen you come and go with the repetitive reinvention of the wheel attendant with successive generations of blunties. Some of us actually take great joy in carrying the correct fuel load and getting the route we think will give the best ride for the pax and save the company some money
It's what we do
Having said all that..if we could earn as much money flying a Beaver on floats or whatever we would have stayed doing that...that's just not the way the world works unfortunately...we did that as young tyros and moved on. And let's face it guys...bush flying is young mans work...12-20 sectors a day was a hoot at 25 and still quite enjoyable at 33 but ya gotta grow up some time...and so many of my friends and workmates didn't get that opportunity
Chuckles
I started lessons in 1981...23 years/11000 hrs later I have to say that I still love my job.
My first 9 years of full time paid flying was bush flying in PNG...C185, Islanders,C402s, Twotters then Bandits. Then got the 'airline' job and flew DHC7 and F28...just bush flying in bigger aircraft....SHEDLOADS of fun
Then Corporate jets, as a Chief Pilot/C&Ter for a few years...wonderfull fun flying Falcons...but ignorant non aviation management destroyed that company.
I was one of those Management pilots who stood up for my crews, when warranted..I also sacked one and was nano seconds from sacking a second when it became obvious that he was so far up managements arse he was untouchable....as well as incompetent. I ended up getting sacked for sticking to my principles but would do so again...better to die standing than live on your knees.
A year, essentially, unemployed followed although I flew casually in a Conquest 2...great fun and it was very interesting awakening the old single pilot IFR skills...glad I flew that aeroplane as I'd always admired them from afar. I also drove taxis again
something I'd done for 5 years when putting myself through PPL/CPL etc. Soul destroying, pityfully paid work.Now I'm back in the cockpit (B767) for a Asian Carrier doing long haul to Europe via the middle east as well as asian regional flying. Back in the RHS for a little while and loving it.
OK sometimes when I haven't managed enough sleep,for the multitudinous reasons we sometimes don't and it's 6 hrs into an 8hr sector you wonder whether there's more to life...and trying to raise Kolkatta/Mumbai etc can be a losing battle..so I just ignore the pricks...they've got my selcal they'll find me in the end, why stress over it?
And yes I'd happily shoot the morons that come up with the so called 'security' checks at places like LHR which completely waste everyone's time...
BUT!!!
I have the perspective of the recent enforced holiday. I was truly unhappy, even though I was flying a little bit in my own lighty and the Conquest. I like flying jets and I like being an airline pilot.
Family Life?
I am a divorced single parent to a teenage girl. What lifestyle could I offer her if I was driving taxis? If I left flying and did a degree in accounting, teaching, Law, Medicine whatever would she be better off? I have the educational qualifications and brains to do any of those but guess what...I wouldn't be happy. I dont want to be any of those!!!
Yes she whinges sometimes about me being away from home. This is the first longhaul job where I am away for up to 8 days straight. I have a live in amah who looks after Chelsea really well and she is mature beyond her years anyway. She'll head off to a really good Boarding school next year for her final two years of high school, her choice..she's looking forward to it. I could not afford either of those options without the well paid job I have now.
And while I'm away a lot I also get chunks of days at home...we have a good life in a nice house in a safe country with long terms friends close and home/family only 6 hrs away in an ID90 Business class seat!!! Oh and 7 weeks annual leave!!!
In the not to distant future I'll be back in the LHS earning a multiple of 4 x times (net) the aerage gross wage of my country of origin.
Airlines the world over...well the non western end...are finding it more and more difficult to attract qualified professionals to fly the jets they keep ordering from Boeing/Airbus...because aviation is no longer looked upon favourably by the 'instant gratification for minimal effort' average youth of today.
I firmly believe that airlins will have to start competing for pilots soon and there's only one way to do that...attractive packages.
Asia is set to boom huge in the next two decades before I hit mandatory retirement... I can see no options for airline management other than to offer more money to experienced pilots, their cadetship schemes won't come close to keeping up.
Do I have rose tinted glasses?
I don't think so...I have seen every kind of mismanaged f**kup this industry has to offer. There is no reason why I shouldn't be set for a reasonable retirement by my mid 50s...thanks to tax free wages that will go up, I believe, in the next years. I reserve the right however to fly on if health and desire to do so remain..or nick off and sail my boat/fiddle with my lighty!!
But you should hear the whinging and moaning from some of the senior guys where I am. But the whingers eventually move on to 'greener' pastures that turn out the same shade of ****brown as they left and a few years later the moaning starts again...you get those in any industry.
It is, IMO, all a matter of perspective. Pilots who have been a long time in one place (and seen a downturn in T&Cs) believe that better options are out there...well go for it, a change is as good as a holiday as the saying goes.
I always figure though that companies tha pay LOTS do so for a reason. If you think the guys at KA are deliriously happy think again..or the CX guys...HK wears thin on families too and even the KA guys doing shorthaul within the same time zone find they put their families back in Oz or wherever due to schooling/pollution reasons...so they drink to much and bemoan their lot and stack it away for early retirement...if divorce doesn't clean them out at the 11th hour.
But I still see the younger guys from here and Oz busting a gut to get out of here or VB and head off to CX/KA/EK...I've got mates in all those places, we all enjoy our jobs and have various stresses but when we compare what we get, add in the costs of living where we're at there's not a lot in it...I'm happy where I am and they're not unhappy with their choices either....perspective.
It could always be a lot worse...we may not have made it in the first place...and all my mates are aviators. We like to fly..I don't associate with people who are 'monitors' and 'system managers' first and foremost...my mates are aviators who appreciate the clever gadgets in their present mount..and appreciate the limitations of those gadgets.
Oh and some bad news for the people who think they make all the decisions about routing/fuel/ etc...you only think that happens. Those of us who've been around a while have seen you come and go with the repetitive reinvention of the wheel attendant with successive generations of blunties. Some of us actually take great joy in carrying the correct fuel load and getting the route we think will give the best ride for the pax and save the company some money
It's what we do
Having said all that..if we could earn as much money flying a Beaver on floats or whatever we would have stayed doing that...that's just not the way the world works unfortunately...we did that as young tyros and moved on. And let's face it guys...bush flying is young mans work...12-20 sectors a day was a hoot at 25 and still quite enjoyable at 33 but ya gotta grow up some time...and so many of my friends and workmates didn't get that opportunity
Chuckles
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 16th Jun 2004 at 17:21.
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Man, what a wonderful thread - at last...
I have a PPL for a number of years now and for a long time have been struggling with the idea of going further.. multi/ir etc, and having a go at the job scene. I have made a definite decision now.
As a PPL I dont have any job worries - with regard to flying - I can go where I like, when I like and with whom I like - Or solo !
I have no stress(unless the radio fails or similar ) and am quite happy to bop around the place.
Having had a read of another thread re pay rates, I think I should definitly stay put. I dont have to have any six-month health checks, Uniforms and I can turn up for work with a bit of stubble, no tie and in jeans stinking of last nights beer if I want.... and no one will question me.
If I want to visit an exotic location, I can buy a ticket, get there(thanks to you guys ) then just lounge around and enjoy the sights, sort of 'quality time' instead of rushing around the world and visiting all the airports...
I know you all have done the above and more, but I think theres more of a thrill/excitement if one does it because one wants to, as opposed to hard(!) cash.
Needless to say I LURVE my current employment, start whenever I want, no roster thingys, finish whenever I want to, take days off as I wish and get paid lots... nah, I think the position of the Airline Captain has lost a lot of its mistique, glamour(?) and authority, and with all the lo cost trips available now, that exotic destination is not so exotic anymore as its within financial reach of most of a greater travelling Joe.
Just to add insult to injury, almost everybody who has flown their own customised lear, 747 or even Concorde in the comfort of their lounge, assumes that they could just jump into the left hand seat of a real bird and 'do it'
Good luck to yawl, I'm just sitting here trying to subdue my jealousy with 'realistic' reasoning !
need another 'fix', so, off to the flying club now....
End of meandering thought. !
I have a PPL for a number of years now and for a long time have been struggling with the idea of going further.. multi/ir etc, and having a go at the job scene. I have made a definite decision now.
As a PPL I dont have any job worries - with regard to flying - I can go where I like, when I like and with whom I like - Or solo !
I have no stress(unless the radio fails or similar ) and am quite happy to bop around the place.
Having had a read of another thread re pay rates, I think I should definitly stay put. I dont have to have any six-month health checks, Uniforms and I can turn up for work with a bit of stubble, no tie and in jeans stinking of last nights beer if I want.... and no one will question me.
If I want to visit an exotic location, I can buy a ticket, get there(thanks to you guys ) then just lounge around and enjoy the sights, sort of 'quality time' instead of rushing around the world and visiting all the airports...
I know you all have done the above and more, but I think theres more of a thrill/excitement if one does it because one wants to, as opposed to hard(!) cash.
Needless to say I LURVE my current employment, start whenever I want, no roster thingys, finish whenever I want to, take days off as I wish and get paid lots... nah, I think the position of the Airline Captain has lost a lot of its mistique, glamour(?) and authority, and with all the lo cost trips available now, that exotic destination is not so exotic anymore as its within financial reach of most of a greater travelling Joe.
Just to add insult to injury, almost everybody who has flown their own customised lear, 747 or even Concorde in the comfort of their lounge, assumes that they could just jump into the left hand seat of a real bird and 'do it'
Good luck to yawl, I'm just sitting here trying to subdue my jealousy with 'realistic' reasoning !
need another 'fix', so, off to the flying club now....
End of meandering thought. !