Emirates emergency landing in JNB
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Does the 340 have positive and negative trim units either side of zero? Curious because a similar incident happened in the US on a 320 where the trim was on the wrong side of zero...
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Cap 56 and all those other conspiracy theorists, the reason why nothing further has been heard of the incident is that there is an active investigation going on at the moment. The safety dept and all other related bodies are flat out trying to get to the bottom of this, hence after the initial report, all is quiet.
I suggest we all do the same and wait for the final report. Wether it is released to the public is a different matter but the way we have been irresponsible with all the other "confidential" reports I would not be suprised if they decide to withold it.
I suggest we all do the same and wait for the final report. Wether it is released to the public is a different matter but the way we have been irresponsible with all the other "confidential" reports I would not be suprised if they decide to withold it.
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Common, Ladies and Gents!
Lets cool our jets and get back to the facts.
Has anyone had any details as to the TOW of the a/c, as assumes by everyone? ANy idea of what the load sheet trim and weight figures were?
Lets cool our jets and get back to the facts.
Has anyone had any details as to the TOW of the a/c, as assumes by everyone? ANy idea of what the load sheet trim and weight figures were?
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I hear that on the A340 the side stick has to be pulled back to the FULL aft position on take-off and then once rotation has begun, no more than 9° pitch is allowed (in order to prevent tail strike).
I guess this needs some vigilance and prudence when rotating.
This is merely an observation/interesting thought that does not imply in any way what-so-ever that the pilots did any mistakes.
The investigation will reveal the facts.
I guess this needs some vigilance and prudence when rotating.
This is merely an observation/interesting thought that does not imply in any way what-so-ever that the pilots did any mistakes.
The investigation will reveal the facts.
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FULL aft sidestick would not be a very good idea during take-off. (rotation) 
Besides, 12.5 degrees pitch is the initial target attitude, then SRS once stabilised.... Yes, a tailstrike may occur with that kind of pitch attitude when on the runway still - can't remember the precise figures for compressed or uncompressed bogies without reaching for the FCOM - but on a normal rotation the aircraft will leave the ground with even a small increase in AOA, and fly away nicely.
Besides, 12.5 degrees pitch is the initial target attitude, then SRS once stabilised.... Yes, a tailstrike may occur with that kind of pitch attitude when on the runway still - can't remember the precise figures for compressed or uncompressed bogies without reaching for the FCOM - but on a normal rotation the aircraft will leave the ground with even a small increase in AOA, and fly away nicely.
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Yeah, I guess FULL aft side stick would be a bit much.
I was chatting to an A340 TRE and most probably misunderstood him.
On the A321 a pitch of 9.5° with L/G compressed or 11° with L/G not compressed will cause a tailstrike.
Possibly similar figures apply for the 300 and 600.
I guess the essence of his message was that the side stick force is more than on the A330 and/or you need to hold the stick back longer (for a longer period of time) on the A340, before something actually happens, i.e. before the nose actually rises.
I was chatting to an A340 TRE and most probably misunderstood him.
On the A321 a pitch of 9.5° with L/G compressed or 11° with L/G not compressed will cause a tailstrike.
Possibly similar figures apply for the 300 and 600.
I guess the essence of his message was that the side stick force is more than on the A330 and/or you need to hold the stick back longer (for a longer period of time) on the A340, before something actually happens, i.e. before the nose actually rises.
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Talking about the a/c weight. The flight from JNB to Dubai is only about 8 hrs. So my guess is that approx 55 tonnes of motion lotion was needed. A guestimate of the T/O weight at about 230 tonnes. Do these figures sound realistic???
Surely they couldn't have been at max on a flight of this duration. Runway limit and flex were more likely to be the cause-just speculating of course.
Rwy 21R was in use that evening with a temp of +-20 deg C!
Maybe an intersection T/O was incorrectly calculated-which is also a strong possibilty. That intersection being Foxtrot of course.
Can anyone shed some light on this issue???
Surely they couldn't have been at max on a flight of this duration. Runway limit and flex were more likely to be the cause-just speculating of course.Rwy 21R was in use that evening with a temp of +-20 deg C!
Maybe an intersection T/O was incorrectly calculated-which is also a strong possibilty. That intersection being Foxtrot of course.Can anyone shed some light on this issue???
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Cap 56
You would have thought that incorrectly loading an aircraft is a difficult thing to achieve, but the reality is somewhat different.
I have seen it many times when the loader get it wrong and all the underfloor load is in the rear hold - not very clever.
And you sya that 'Full is full'. What about the density of whatever you are loading? I am not saying that this is the reason, just pointing out that you need to open the blinkers somewhat to look at a wider perspective.
Full maybe full, as in no more space, but what about the different weight characterisitcs of the load. It then become more of a possibility for an error to occur. I have even seen a computer load sheet which had incorrect cargo mass on it which put us at a 7 ton underload.
AND that was inJNB.
In the mean time we will all speculate as to what happened, but let us hope that the investigation is published and we all learn from the outcome.
You would have thought that incorrectly loading an aircraft is a difficult thing to achieve, but the reality is somewhat different.
I have seen it many times when the loader get it wrong and all the underfloor load is in the rear hold - not very clever.
And you sya that 'Full is full'. What about the density of whatever you are loading? I am not saying that this is the reason, just pointing out that you need to open the blinkers somewhat to look at a wider perspective.
Full maybe full, as in no more space, but what about the different weight characterisitcs of the load. It then become more of a possibility for an error to occur. I have even seen a computer load sheet which had incorrect cargo mass on it which put us at a 7 ton underload.
AND that was inJNB.
In the mean time we will all speculate as to what happened, but let us hope that the investigation is published and we all learn from the outcome.
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Here is a little more from the AirbusA340-300 FCOM Bulletin pertaining to the section "Avoiding Tailstrikes". A few points about rotation from the "horses mouth". For those who know more, relax, this also for those who would like to learn a little more about the subject.
Certain sections were chosen as there is a lot more here on it. Note second sentence under paragraph 2 about increase of take-off distance.
2) ROTATION RATE
R Too fast rotations increase the risk of tailstrike
R Too slow rotations increase the take off distance and take off run.
The performance calculations were based on the following rates achieved during test flights :
After engine failure :
– normal = 2.5°/sec – maximum = 3°/sec.
All engines operation : – normal = 3°/sec – maximum = 4°/sec
Recommendation ~ Rotate at the average rotation rate of 2.5°– 3°/sec4) ROTATION TECHNIQUE
At VR rotate the aircraft smoothly aiming for a continuous rate to a pitch attitude of 12.5°.
Note : The SRS command bar does not give orders to obtain the correct pitch rate
during the rotation on the ground, but to reach and maintain the SRS speed R after lift off.Therefore, do not attempt to follow the SRS pitch order during the
rotation phase before the lift off.
The A340 has a large inertia.The rotation rate produced by a given sidestick input takes time
to build up ; once it has developed it remains relatively constant for a given sidestick position. R It is therefore important to initiate the rotation with a positive rearward stick input.A small R or slow movement of the sidestick will give a sluggish rotation.If, to increase the rotation R rate, a further aft movement is made around the time of lift-off, the possibility of tailstrike is R significantly increased.
R Recommendation ~ At VR, initiate a prompt and positive rotation to achieve the desired R
rotation rate (2.5° to 3°/sec). Avoid making further rearward sidestick
R
inputs around the point of lift-off.
– The higher the thrust to weight ratio (T/W) the better the acceleration capability of the aircraft and the lower the risk of a tailstrike.
– Risk of tailstrike increases on take off at low T/W ratios, where the aircraft’s performance is limited by climb gradient (1st or 2nd segments).
6) TAKE OFF TRIM SETTING
During flight test it is demonstrated that for whatever A/C CG position, as long as the trim setting lies within the certified limits (green band of the trim wheel), there are no major effects on the aircraft handling.
It is, nevertheless, a fact that a wrong trim setting (for the T/O CG) will change the aircraft usual behaviour during the rotation, specially in the initial part.It might be felt by the crew that the rotation is more brisk or more sluggish than usual. In both cases the crew will observe a different aircraft reaction to their usual stick input and might be tempted to overreact.
Recommendation ~ Set the trim according to the A/C CG displayed in ECAM.
9) CONFIGURATION
For a given stick input the aircraft rotates slightly faster in CONF 1 + F than for the other take off configurations, although the margins to tailstrike are identical for the same rotation rates in all configurations at a given weight and given ratio of VR/VR min.
No single factor should result in a tailstrike, but accumulation of several can significantly reduce the margins.It is therefore important to ensure that the correct technique is used in conditions of crosswinds where the take-off is VMU limited (RTOW limit code 9) and is conducted at low thrust/weight ratios (e.g. max RTOW and FLEX temp).
If a tailstrike occurs at takeoff, flight at altitude requiring a pressurized cabin must be avoided and a return to originating airport should be performed for damage assessment
Certain sections were chosen as there is a lot more here on it. Note second sentence under paragraph 2 about increase of take-off distance.
2) ROTATION RATE
R Too fast rotations increase the risk of tailstrike
R Too slow rotations increase the take off distance and take off run.
The performance calculations were based on the following rates achieved during test flights :
After engine failure :
– normal = 2.5°/sec – maximum = 3°/sec.
All engines operation : – normal = 3°/sec – maximum = 4°/sec
Recommendation ~ Rotate at the average rotation rate of 2.5°– 3°/sec4) ROTATION TECHNIQUE
At VR rotate the aircraft smoothly aiming for a continuous rate to a pitch attitude of 12.5°.
Note : The SRS command bar does not give orders to obtain the correct pitch rate
during the rotation on the ground, but to reach and maintain the SRS speed R after lift off.Therefore, do not attempt to follow the SRS pitch order during the
rotation phase before the lift off.
The A340 has a large inertia.The rotation rate produced by a given sidestick input takes time
to build up ; once it has developed it remains relatively constant for a given sidestick position. R It is therefore important to initiate the rotation with a positive rearward stick input.A small R or slow movement of the sidestick will give a sluggish rotation.If, to increase the rotation R rate, a further aft movement is made around the time of lift-off, the possibility of tailstrike is R significantly increased.
R Recommendation ~ At VR, initiate a prompt and positive rotation to achieve the desired R
rotation rate (2.5° to 3°/sec). Avoid making further rearward sidestick
R
inputs around the point of lift-off.
– The higher the thrust to weight ratio (T/W) the better the acceleration capability of the aircraft and the lower the risk of a tailstrike.
– Risk of tailstrike increases on take off at low T/W ratios, where the aircraft’s performance is limited by climb gradient (1st or 2nd segments).
6) TAKE OFF TRIM SETTING
During flight test it is demonstrated that for whatever A/C CG position, as long as the trim setting lies within the certified limits (green band of the trim wheel), there are no major effects on the aircraft handling.
It is, nevertheless, a fact that a wrong trim setting (for the T/O CG) will change the aircraft usual behaviour during the rotation, specially in the initial part.It might be felt by the crew that the rotation is more brisk or more sluggish than usual. In both cases the crew will observe a different aircraft reaction to their usual stick input and might be tempted to overreact.
Recommendation ~ Set the trim according to the A/C CG displayed in ECAM.
9) CONFIGURATION
For a given stick input the aircraft rotates slightly faster in CONF 1 + F than for the other take off configurations, although the margins to tailstrike are identical for the same rotation rates in all configurations at a given weight and given ratio of VR/VR min.
No single factor should result in a tailstrike, but accumulation of several can significantly reduce the margins.It is therefore important to ensure that the correct technique is used in conditions of crosswinds where the take-off is VMU limited (RTOW limit code 9) and is conducted at low thrust/weight ratios (e.g. max RTOW and FLEX temp).
If a tailstrike occurs at takeoff, flight at altitude requiring a pressurized cabin must be avoided and a return to originating airport should be performed for damage assessment
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Well Bird On, a man of only 12 posts-can't say you have helped much in the 5% either.
Maybe you would contribute towards the 5% and tell us what we all want to hear "first hand information.
Maybe you would contribute towards the 5% and tell us what we all want to hear "first hand information.
Cap56
Thank you for your clear and non emotional posts. While I appreciate other posters opinions on the subject I do believe that attacks against any other poster only diminish their own credibility.
And I am a firm believer that our job is to prevent the next accident, so how better to do this then to discuss and plan our own actions based on what ifs. Thus to await the final report years later serves no purpose other than who gets the assigned blame.
Thank you for your clear and non emotional posts. While I appreciate other posters opinions on the subject I do believe that attacks against any other poster only diminish their own credibility.
And I am a firm believer that our job is to prevent the next accident, so how better to do this then to discuss and plan our own actions based on what ifs. Thus to await the final report years later serves no purpose other than who gets the assigned blame.
Paxing All Over The World
Non-pilot asking: Cap 56
If a hold container has (for argument's sake) boxes of domestic cushions or boxes of domestic carpet tiles, the density and weight will be different. A) If the load sheet says one thing and the container something else, then a weight error has been made. B) If the placing of the container in the hold is at variance to the load sheet, then a trim error has been made. Potentially, both errors.
As I said at the start of this thread, in South Africa, it is not unknown for people to confuse 'available space in the hold' with 'available weight on the loadsheet'.
I see that people have said in this thread that weight is more crucial with a light load and trim at almost any load but I do not understand how it can be that:
I sit to be corrected.
If a hold container has (for argument's sake) boxes of domestic cushions or boxes of domestic carpet tiles, the density and weight will be different. A) If the load sheet says one thing and the container something else, then a weight error has been made. B) If the placing of the container in the hold is at variance to the load sheet, then a trim error has been made. Potentially, both errors.
As I said at the start of this thread, in South Africa, it is not unknown for people to confuse 'available space in the hold' with 'available weight on the loadsheet'.
I see that people have said in this thread that weight is more crucial with a light load and trim at almost any load but I do not understand how it can be that:
The stuff below the floor has more or less the same density therefore you really have to go for it to get it wrong.
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Streamline
Please enlighten us further as to where you have discovered that training is to blame for this.
What evidence do you have that the CAA here is corrupt?
You can't just go posting random thoughts because it is what you believe to be the case. If you believe your posts to be true then please substantiate them with "FACTS" and hard evidence.
Please enlighten us further as to where you have discovered that training is to blame for this.
What evidence do you have that the CAA here is corrupt?
You can't just go posting random thoughts because it is what you believe to be the case. If you believe your posts to be true then please substantiate them with "FACTS" and hard evidence.