munich incident
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 127
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From: USA
From the Fokker AOM: "Engine anti-icing must be on during all ground- and flight operations when icing conditions exist or are anticipated." With regard to wing and tail anti-ice: "The wing and tail systems must be selected on when icing conditions exist or when icing is observed."
You can read that to say, engine anti-ice on before you enter icing conditions, and wing and tail anti-ice on after you enter the same.
Fokker just come out Friday, recommending operating with the engine anti-ice on at all times when the TAT is below +6 to -25 degrees C, regardless.
With regards to Austrian Airlines, does replacing the F70 "engine ice protection system" refer to going back to the orginial design of the ice impact trays?
You can read that to say, engine anti-ice on before you enter icing conditions, and wing and tail anti-ice on after you enter the same.
Fokker just come out Friday, recommending operating with the engine anti-ice on at all times when the TAT is below +6 to -25 degrees C, regardless.
With regards to Austrian Airlines, does replacing the F70 "engine ice protection system" refer to going back to the orginial design of the ice impact trays?
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: switzerland
Interesting photos of the impact trays.
There's a good shot of the damage to the rear fuselage at www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/open.file/486471/M/
This in the area through which the main fuel lines to the engines and APU run!
Thinking about what happened when the toboggan ride came to an end-
I'd love to have heard what the Captain said to his passengers.
Did Captain Kirk send the Turk outside for a look around before deciding against an evacuation?
Actually he wouldn't have needed to risk clambering over the half extended stairway, he could have used the slide on the opposite galley door.
Maybe they started the APU to keep warm, served coffee and listened to Johann Strauss waltzes whilst waiting for the emergency services to arrive!
There's a good shot of the damage to the rear fuselage at www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/open.file/486471/M/
This in the area through which the main fuel lines to the engines and APU run!
Thinking about what happened when the toboggan ride came to an end-
I'd love to have heard what the Captain said to his passengers.
Did Captain Kirk send the Turk outside for a look around before deciding against an evacuation?
Actually he wouldn't have needed to risk clambering over the half extended stairway, he could have used the slide on the opposite galley door.
Maybe they started the APU to keep warm, served coffee and listened to Johann Strauss waltzes whilst waiting for the emergency services to arrive!
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: Austria
@moderatar,
You certainly would have known better, do You?
As rumours go, the service door would not open due to some stress/twist (forgive my english being not perfect) on the fuselage.
captain kurka surely knew that there is another door available, rest assured.
And for the damage to the rear fuselage: the picture shows some damage to the wing/fuselage fairings, nothing more.
I am pretty sure Fokker did not rely on these panels which are there for pure aerodynamic improvement to mount the fuel lines.
I am just waiting for You to tell stories about Austrians being "Krauts", then I'll know all about Your "style".
You certainly would have known better, do You?
As rumours go, the service door would not open due to some stress/twist (forgive my english being not perfect) on the fuselage.
captain kurka surely knew that there is another door available, rest assured.
And for the damage to the rear fuselage: the picture shows some damage to the wing/fuselage fairings, nothing more.
I am pretty sure Fokker did not rely on these panels which are there for pure aerodynamic improvement to mount the fuel lines.
I am just waiting for You to tell stories about Austrians being "Krauts", then I'll know all about Your "style".
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 2,201
Likes: 0
From: Chichester West Sussex UK
The captain of this aircraft had a serious in-flight emergency – however it was caused.
Despite this he did not loose the plot, pulled off a remarkable field landing and continued to think and make difficult decisions (like not to evacuate – a much harder one than everybody out)
Methinks anybody who criticises such a man without all the facts is saying more about themselves than this accident.
Despite this he did not loose the plot, pulled off a remarkable field landing and continued to think and make difficult decisions (like not to evacuate – a much harder one than everybody out)
Methinks anybody who criticises such a man without all the facts is saying more about themselves than this accident.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: Linköping, Sweden
Moderator said:
That would be one really flat slide going down! 
Remember that the aircraft was lying on its belly.
The door would only have been about a foot from the ground.
he could have used the slide on the opposite galley door.
Remember that the aircraft was lying on its belly.
The door would only have been about a foot from the ground.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: vienna, austria
evacuate or not?
difficult decision, would be really a tragedy to evacuate after going down safely on a snowcovered field and then loose a pax who gets lost in the snowfall, maybe injured, in a state of shock, no jacket on, temperatures around the freezing point. crowd control isn't that easy in such circumstances. a controversial decision but as i think not a bad one. There's always a great difference between classroom and real life.
well done boys!
well done boys!
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 3
From: Arizona USA
To evac...or not.
To those that think that this crew was irresponsible to not evac...were YOU there to assess the situation?
Thought not.
Would suggest these folks, who claim to 'know it all' and would have done differently...YOU WERN'T AT THE SCENE, so of course cannot comment effectively about the situation.
Some never learn, it seems.
Why should we be surprised?
To those that think that this crew was irresponsible to not evac...were YOU there to assess the situation?
Thought not.
Would suggest these folks, who claim to 'know it all' and would have done differently...YOU WERN'T AT THE SCENE, so of course cannot comment effectively about the situation.
Some never learn, it seems.
Why should we be surprised?
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: EU
To all of you who seem to know it all from a position in front of your computers, I like to quote a sentence from John Farley`s post:
I am sure you hate the media when they dive in with their guesswork a few minutes after an aviation accident(?) So, why do the same mistake
Methinks anybody who criticises such a man without all the facts is saying more about themselves than this accident.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 743
Likes: 0
From: Slovenia
See BFU's accident Bulletin for Jan 2004, pages 3-11 (in German):
http://www.bfu-web.de/Bulletin/Bulletin0401.pdf
http://www.bfu-web.de/Bulletin/Bulletin0401.pdf
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 11
From: Down south, USA.
Maxrev: You complimented the crew on good stick and rudder skills.
Why can't the FMC and perfect knowledge of all automation modes, which appear to create in many (new-generation) Pprune pilots a smug sort of pride, not substitute for good flying skills?
Why can't the FMC and perfect knowledge of all automation modes, which appear to create in many (new-generation) Pprune pilots a smug sort of pride, not substitute for good flying skills?
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,399
Likes: 857
From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Ignition Override - perhaps because skill-based learning and experience is held in higher esteem by the pilot fraternity than that which is merely knowledge-based?
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: gb
Full report of Captain Kirk, the ice and the Bostik at http://www.bfu-web.de/berichte/04_ax001efr.pdf
There is no comment on the Captain's decision not to evacuate nor is there a CVR transcript - pity!
(Edited by PPRuNe Dispatcher to correct the link)
There is no comment on the Captain's decision not to evacuate nor is there a CVR transcript - pity!
(Edited by PPRuNe Dispatcher to correct the link)
