munich incident
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Even though it's more than a decade that I flew the Fokker, I remember very well that the spinner of the engine was prone to ice up and cause vibrations, which could be stopped by reducing thrust. A modification was introduced by RollsRoyce, however, many carriers decided not to modify their fleets.
According to a friend of mine who is an ex-Fokker testpilot, preliminary information suggests that engine-vibrations due to ice caused the crew to reduce thrust. However, according to him, the engine is capable of shedding the ice by advancing thrust rapidly(one engine at a time of course). It seems that this was not attempted by the crew.
Facing an imminent crash-landing, trying to advance thrust even if it possibly destroyes the engines, seems to me good airmanship (remember Air Florida, where the pilots also never advanced thrust despite going down).
For the sake of the crew I hope my friends preliminary infos turn out to be incorrect.
According to a friend of mine who is an ex-Fokker testpilot, preliminary information suggests that engine-vibrations due to ice caused the crew to reduce thrust. However, according to him, the engine is capable of shedding the ice by advancing thrust rapidly(one engine at a time of course). It seems that this was not attempted by the crew.
Facing an imminent crash-landing, trying to advance thrust even if it possibly destroyes the engines, seems to me good airmanship (remember Air Florida, where the pilots also never advanced thrust despite going down).
For the sake of the crew I hope my friends preliminary infos turn out to be incorrect.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 96
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From: UK
Standard means of shedding ice from an iced-up fan is to apply a short, sharp application of power to the affected engine(s). The short increase in power, effectively, 'warps' the fan blade such that the ice is shed. This is particularly relevant during the approach phase when the engines are operating at lower thrust settings.
This would be the case if the engine anti-ice system had failed or had not been selected.
The RR Tay 620/650 engine is a good engine provided you look after it.
This would be the case if the engine anti-ice system had failed or had not been selected.
The RR Tay 620/650 engine is a good engine provided you look after it.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: 370 MW (Plaza), Toxic Metropolis (MMMX)
Mexicana had a lot of problems with their F100s. I was jump seating in XA-LXG when we shut-down the rigth engine over MTY a few years ago. It was deu to excesive vibration. Don't remember if the mods were installed on all planes.
They will be phased out beginning of next year anyway...
They will be phased out beginning of next year anyway...
Joined: Sep 2001
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 2,787
Likes: 208
From: Toronto
The Ultimate Skiplane
Just what you need to take dozens of friends ice fishing on frozen lakes
More seriously, it's likely a structural writeoff.
Kudos in order to Fokker for an airframe that stayed in one piece and to the pilots who had very little time for a brilliant improvisation.
Der Bauer deserves an all expenses stay in a sunny destination for a well tended field while the authorities do their investigation and cleanup.
More seriously, it's likely a structural writeoff.
Kudos in order to Fokker for an airframe that stayed in one piece and to the pilots who had very little time for a brilliant improvisation.
Der Bauer deserves an all expenses stay in a sunny destination for a well tended field while the authorities do their investigation and cleanup.
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Germany
Covered Registration
When visiting the accident site today, I noticed that the aircraft's registration was intentionally covered with a plastic sheet, as well as its name.
Can any member shed light on what is the point in covering these identification marks?
Thank you.
Can any member shed light on what is the point in covering these identification marks?
Thank you.
Last edited by Sirius Flying; 7th January 2004 at 04:14.
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Just some more stuff
Heya folks,
just wanted to add a few more things conc. the accident:
About no one using the overwing exits:
all PAX stayed on board for about half an hour AFTER the LDG!
Crew deemed an EVAC as not necessary.
And about the registration and stuff, here are a few more photos, though don't ask me, I didn't take them:
groups.msn.com/TechnikundFliegen/mucaua.msnw?albumlist=2
Thanks so long, greetings,
~b
just wanted to add a few more things conc. the accident:
About no one using the overwing exits:
all PAX stayed on board for about half an hour AFTER the LDG!
Crew deemed an EVAC as not necessary.
And about the registration and stuff, here are a few more photos, though don't ask me, I didn't take them:
groups.msn.com/TechnikundFliegen/mucaua.msnw?albumlist=2
Thanks so long, greetings,
~b
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
From: Switzerland
Sirius Flying
Immatriculation marks and airline names are often blanked after an accident because no airline likes to see their name on an aircraft which is not very it is supposed to be.
Of course, we know what happened. But do other people just passing by know about the facts? They might take it as a wrong indication of the safety on that airline.
Immatriculation marks and airline names are often blanked after an accident because no airline likes to see their name on an aircraft which is not very it is supposed to be.
Of course, we know what happened. But do other people just passing by know about the facts? They might take it as a wrong indication of the safety on that airline.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
From: Germany
For those interested in the meteorological conditions during the incident, here are two links for the vertical soundings of 05/00 utc and 05/12 utc.
They were launched in Oberschleissheim, only about 25 km away from the airport.
Conditions didn't change a lot during the first half of the day.
Sounding 05/00 utc
Sounding 05/12 utc
They were launched in Oberschleissheim, only about 25 km away from the airport.
Conditions didn't change a lot during the first half of the day.
Sounding 05/00 utc
Sounding 05/12 utc
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
Austrian TV ORF reports the "ice impact trays were broken".
(german)
http://www.orf.at/040108-69491/index.html
(german)
http://www.orf.at/040108-69491/index.html
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 941
Likes: 0
From: what U.S. calls ´old Europe´
Austrian OTS reports (in german), that the Ice Impact Trays were broken on both engines. These parts were broken off the engine casing, and are designed to protect the engine from damage by ice fragments broken from the fan blades (?). Austrian technicans discussed the attachment system of the ice impact trays with Rolls Royce specialists.
Can anyone tell us more about this item ? And about the anti ice system of RR engines in general and especially on the Fokker ?
Do all transport jet engines have this device ? Or is it just a more simple way to handle icing on smaller jets ?
Can anyone tell us more about this item ? And about the anti ice system of RR engines in general and especially on the Fokker ?
Do all transport jet engines have this device ? Or is it just a more simple way to handle icing on smaller jets ?
Joined: Sep 1999
Posts: 183
Likes: 0
From: Bechuanaland
Saw this on another forum.
Does it sound copacetic? Is there a load control valve that cycles the bleed air loads around the various services - and is it electrically operated (sequenced)? Don't know this airplane at all meself.
<<<IMHO the ice impact trays are a symptom (and not the cause). The cause is more likely to be similar (but not the same) to Air Florida's 737 predicament (false EPR generated by icing-over of the P2 probes in both engines). In Air Florida's case they had the power but a misleading false indication. In the F-70 accident it's likely that:
a. Icing over of P1 or P2 air sensors might have caused a very low idle, and robbed the Tay engines of their acceleration - or more likely
b. the load control valve for the wing/tail anti-ice system stuck (instead of cycling) and allowed too much bleed air to be sucked away - thus robbing the engine inlet intake anti-icing of heat (which in turn would have allowed a build-up/choking of the engine intakes in the severe icing conditions - generated a low idle RPM and denied acceleration to a higher RPM).
Similar to the BAe146 rollback except that here the Tays were being denied intake lip hot air and so were choking up with ice (as well as being excessively robbed of bleed air). If it had been just one engine that got stuck at idle you'd think that a bleed-air valve had stuck open. But with both engines, you have to look at a common fault condition - and that's why I mention the in-fuselage load control valve that apportions air (and cycles it between all the pneumatic services).>>>
Does it sound copacetic? Is there a load control valve that cycles the bleed air loads around the various services - and is it electrically operated (sequenced)? Don't know this airplane at all meself.
<<<IMHO the ice impact trays are a symptom (and not the cause). The cause is more likely to be similar (but not the same) to Air Florida's 737 predicament (false EPR generated by icing-over of the P2 probes in both engines). In Air Florida's case they had the power but a misleading false indication. In the F-70 accident it's likely that:
a. Icing over of P1 or P2 air sensors might have caused a very low idle, and robbed the Tay engines of their acceleration - or more likely
b. the load control valve for the wing/tail anti-ice system stuck (instead of cycling) and allowed too much bleed air to be sucked away - thus robbing the engine inlet intake anti-icing of heat (which in turn would have allowed a build-up/choking of the engine intakes in the severe icing conditions - generated a low idle RPM and denied acceleration to a higher RPM).
Similar to the BAe146 rollback except that here the Tays were being denied intake lip hot air and so were choking up with ice (as well as being excessively robbed of bleed air). If it had been just one engine that got stuck at idle you'd think that a bleed-air valve had stuck open. But with both engines, you have to look at a common fault condition - and that's why I mention the in-fuselage load control valve that apportions air (and cycles it between all the pneumatic services).>>>
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 387
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From: LGW
Just like to add that the pilots of the aircraft did an amazing job in the conditions. How many times have you seen an aircraft land in a field and remain intact, without even a ripple or crack showing, not catching fire or killing everyone on board? not many. All my praise for these top guys.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 51
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From: Linköping, Sweden
I found out last night that a friend of mine and his sister were onboard this flight. Here are a few things that he told me:
At around 14,000 ft, the engines became choppy, you could also feel the smell of smoke in the cabin.
The engine power was significantly reduced for the remaining airborne time. They didn´t died.
About 10 seconds before the touchdown, the pilots turned off the engines and they shouted mayday over the PA system.
The aircraft came to a halt very quickly.
Most of the pax thought that they were at the airport. When they found out what had happened, people started crying.
The pax remained inside the aircraft as it was deemed that there was no risk of fire.
It took about half an hour before they left the aircraft. Thats when the rescue services arrived.
/fritzi
At around 14,000 ft, the engines became choppy, you could also feel the smell of smoke in the cabin.
The engine power was significantly reduced for the remaining airborne time. They didn´t died.
About 10 seconds before the touchdown, the pilots turned off the engines and they shouted mayday over the PA system.
The aircraft came to a halt very quickly.
Most of the pax thought that they were at the airport. When they found out what had happened, people started crying.
The pax remained inside the aircraft as it was deemed that there was no risk of fire.
It took about half an hour before they left the aircraft. Thats when the rescue services arrived.
/fritzi
The Reverend
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 2,020
Likes: 0
From: Sydney,NSW,Australia
Fritzi, your English is very good but I doubt if the crew shouted mayday on the PA 10 seconds before impact. More than likely it was "brace, brace" or whatever is the equivalent in German?