BA Washington flights and security threats (merged)
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411A, good point. Although i notice your from the US. Have a look at this another way. Captain and crew refuse to operate flight becasue they are not happy with some armed 'expert' on there aircraft. Beancounter says byebye to crew, don't pass go, don't collect £100. Another crew does exactly the same....suddenly a certain airline is loosing lots of crews which it is struggling to keep together at the best of times...1.Crew/Pilots all refuse to operate flights, and go on strike. Airline looses millions. 2. Company gets rid of all 'unruly' staff. Suddenly company have a big problem!
Balpa says No armed marshals. Airlines agree. Someone is not going to be happy. Oh ofcourse, the US gov.
Expedite.
Balpa says No armed marshals. Airlines agree. Someone is not going to be happy. Oh ofcourse, the US gov.
Expedite.
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Today's Daily Record is reporting that the threat apparantley came from a Female Suicide Bomber who was planning to smuggle the bomb on board inside a certain part of her anatomy.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/co...name_page.html
If this is true, will we see the introduction of full 3-d x-ray style body scanners in the not too distant future, along with explosive residue detectors.
As to the point about API messages, we have to send them to the TSA as soon as possible within 30 minutes of the aircraft pushingback. With the technology that is around today, it should be possible to verify who a passenger is when they check in for the flight.
Veering slightly off topic, Theme Parks in the USA can print photos of their customers onto their tickets within a matter of minutes. Why is something like this not standard practice for boarding cards.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/co...name_page.html
If this is true, will we see the introduction of full 3-d x-ray style body scanners in the not too distant future, along with explosive residue detectors.
As to the point about API messages, we have to send them to the TSA as soon as possible within 30 minutes of the aircraft pushingback. With the technology that is around today, it should be possible to verify who a passenger is when they check in for the flight.
Veering slightly off topic, Theme Parks in the USA can print photos of their customers onto their tickets within a matter of minutes. Why is something like this not standard practice for boarding cards.
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Ghost-ryder
They don't need fighters. All they need is a light aeroplane or two, a couple of motivated individuals trained to a basic PPL standard, a target and BINGO!- An airborne suicide bomber.
Take a look at a Baltimore/Washington Sectional Chart or Terminal Chart and you will see that there are hundreds of small and private strips scattered around the area which could be home to a couple or couple of hundred light aircraft, some probably not used very regularly, and within a few minutes flying time of the SID/STAR tracks in and out of Dulles,or even the Final Approach tracks themselves for the various runways.
Personally,I think this smacks of a genuine received 'Carrier-Flight Number specific' threat either from a ground or external airborne source, due to the fact that neither HMG,BA or the US Authorities would allow the aircraft to depart for the return service to LHR.
...........Or...............
A new passenger vetting system with teething problems but why would pax. on this or the AF-LAX services trigger 'Flags' when many other carriers enter the US with more pax. with Arabic/Middle Eastern 'sounding' names?
They don't need fighters. All they need is a light aeroplane or two, a couple of motivated individuals trained to a basic PPL standard, a target and BINGO!- An airborne suicide bomber.
Take a look at a Baltimore/Washington Sectional Chart or Terminal Chart and you will see that there are hundreds of small and private strips scattered around the area which could be home to a couple or couple of hundred light aircraft, some probably not used very regularly, and within a few minutes flying time of the SID/STAR tracks in and out of Dulles,or even the Final Approach tracks themselves for the various runways.
Personally,I think this smacks of a genuine received 'Carrier-Flight Number specific' threat either from a ground or external airborne source, due to the fact that neither HMG,BA or the US Authorities would allow the aircraft to depart for the return service to LHR.
...........Or...............
A new passenger vetting system with teething problems but why would pax. on this or the AF-LAX services trigger 'Flags' when many other carriers enter the US with more pax. with Arabic/Middle Eastern 'sounding' names?
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Torygraph was reporting the flights were cancelled by the British authorities as they were worried about a hijacking/bombing over London - makes more sense - the tanks would be full. Obviously the traditionally anti-US papers like the Grauniad report it differently.
[URL=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/03/nterr03.xml]
[URL=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/01/03/nterr03.xml]
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Here's today's headline:
B.A. Washington flight to go ahead
LONDON, England (CNN) --British Airways Flight 223 is set to leave London's Heathrow Airport Saturday afternoon for Washington's Dulles Airport, after it was cancelled twice due to security concerns.
The flight had been due to depart London at 1505 GMT (10:05 a.m. ET), but a spokesman for British Airways said the flight had been delayed by one hour by extra security checks.
Britain's ministry of transport said the plane had been deemed safe to operate, without going into further detail.
At least 10 international flights have been either canceled or delayed for security reasons since Wednesday, primarily flights involving British Airways.
Flight 223 was canceled Thursday and again Friday. On Wednesday, that same flight received a fighter escort into Washington Dulles International Airport after authorities said about a dozen passenger names seemed to match those on a terrorism watch list.
The plane sat on the runway for hours, but authorities determined there was no threat.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...cel/index.html
B.A. Washington flight to go ahead
LONDON, England (CNN) --British Airways Flight 223 is set to leave London's Heathrow Airport Saturday afternoon for Washington's Dulles Airport, after it was cancelled twice due to security concerns.
The flight had been due to depart London at 1505 GMT (10:05 a.m. ET), but a spokesman for British Airways said the flight had been delayed by one hour by extra security checks.
Britain's ministry of transport said the plane had been deemed safe to operate, without going into further detail.
At least 10 international flights have been either canceled or delayed for security reasons since Wednesday, primarily flights involving British Airways.
Flight 223 was canceled Thursday and again Friday. On Wednesday, that same flight received a fighter escort into Washington Dulles International Airport after authorities said about a dozen passenger names seemed to match those on a terrorism watch list.
The plane sat on the runway for hours, but authorities determined there was no threat.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...cel/index.html
Well maybe in order to make TSA people feel even more important they may be assigned to give flight information, since it seems they run the flght schedule over the atlantic during the last week or so!
Happy and sane new year with plenty of patience.
Rwy in Sight
Happy and sane new year with plenty of patience.
Rwy in Sight
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Bad Link
The link doesn't work because it has two extra spaces, "%20", in the URL. Remove them and the story loads.
I have created this tinyurl which also works: http://tinyurl.com/2ykpw
I have created this tinyurl which also works: http://tinyurl.com/2ykpw
Guest
Posts: n/a
The whole idea that terrorists would be using their real names and clear descriptions of what they were planning to do using unencrypted communications is ridiculous, especially in the wake of the massively increased surveillance after 9-11. If the
American authorities think they are hearing anything suspicious it is either due to an overactive imagination or is a ruse by the terrorists to create panic or create a diversion. Even the 9-11 terrorists did their most delicate planning in face-to-face meetings in Spain and Las Vegas, and aliases and code words are easy to use.
At the other hand this article might be the cause of all the dismay?
American authorities think they are hearing anything suspicious it is either due to an overactive imagination or is a ruse by the terrorists to create panic or create a diversion. Even the 9-11 terrorists did their most delicate planning in face-to-face meetings in Spain and Las Vegas, and aliases and code words are easy to use.
At the other hand this article might be the cause of all the dismay?
So - check the names on the pax list. Good idea. Pity about the US citizen (real name David Francis Bieber) on the run from a murder rap who killed a cop in Leeds the other week whilst using a US passport in the name of Nathan Wayne Coleman. And do they really issue visas/waivers to people who are on the TSA watch lists?
Garbage in, garbage out is one thing - but putting even good information into a dysfunctional processing system does not produce good results. And putting more information in to the machine will not improve the quality of output. There is a serious problem with giving a bureaucracy all it wants..
On a lighter note, I'm beginning to think that The Authorities have gone back to the source of Western civilisation for answers - consulting the auguries. Before setting out on a voyage the Romans would have a priest kill a chicken and examine its guts for clues to predict success or failure. It was a go/no go matter.
Garbage in, garbage out is one thing - but putting even good information into a dysfunctional processing system does not produce good results. And putting more information in to the machine will not improve the quality of output. There is a serious problem with giving a bureaucracy all it wants..
On a lighter note, I'm beginning to think that The Authorities have gone back to the source of Western civilisation for answers - consulting the auguries. Before setting out on a voyage the Romans would have a priest kill a chicken and examine its guts for clues to predict success or failure. It was a go/no go matter.
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Again.
BBC; 18:09; 5.1.03
Washington flight delayed again
About 200 passengers have been waiting two hours so far
BA's flight 223 to Washington has been delayed again amid security fears.
The flight, which was cancelled twice last week and delayed on Saturday and Sunday, had been due to take off from Heathrow at 1505 GMT.
But it was not cleared by US officials until almost three hours later, and finally took off just after 1800 GMT.
However, BA flight 263 to Riyadh, which was also cancelled twice last week because of security fears, left more or less as scheduled, at about 1345 GMT.
Flight 223 was delayed for the third day as US officials reportedly went through the names of the 200 or so passengers on board.
The delay came as a row continued about US demands that undercover armed sky marshals be put on some flights.
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw defended the decision to ground some passenger flights, saying safety must come first.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling said the flights were grounded only as a last resort.
However, neither minister would be drawn on the specific nature of any potential threat.
The pilots' union Balpa claimed the repeated grounding of 223 was a "political decision" linked to BA's reluctance to fly with sky marshals on board.
'Own judgements'
The flight was accompanied by US fighter jets last Wednesday (New Year's Eve), cancelled on Thursday and Friday and subject to delays on Saturday and Sunday.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Straw said the cancellations had been based on specific intelligence.
He denied that UK air security - including the decision to introduce air marshals on some planes - was being driven by the US.
"We make our own judgements on the basis of expert analysis by our brilliant security and intelligence services," Mr Straw said.
"There have been many hundreds of transatlantic flights taking place without any cancellation or delay, and thousands around the world," he added.
'Marshals row'
On Monday UK holiday company Thomas Cook Airlines joined the row over air marshals, saying it would refuse to operate flights if they were put on board because of safety concerns.
"For the time being, if a sky marshal presents himself, we will cancel the flight," said a spokesman.
"Like Balpa, we want to see captains remain in full control of the aircraft at all times."
A spokesman for BA said that "in principle, where appropriate, with agreed procedures in place, we'd be comfortable" with marshals on its aircraft.
Balpa officials were meeting BA to discuss the issue on Monday, and were due to meet Mr Darling on Tuesday.
The union has already reached agreement with one transatlantic carrier - Virgin Atlantic - on rules for working with the marshals.
It is calling for an "over-arching" agreement with the government, covering the use of marshals across all airlines.
Washington flight delayed again
About 200 passengers have been waiting two hours so far
BA's flight 223 to Washington has been delayed again amid security fears.
The flight, which was cancelled twice last week and delayed on Saturday and Sunday, had been due to take off from Heathrow at 1505 GMT.
But it was not cleared by US officials until almost three hours later, and finally took off just after 1800 GMT.
However, BA flight 263 to Riyadh, which was also cancelled twice last week because of security fears, left more or less as scheduled, at about 1345 GMT.
Flight 223 was delayed for the third day as US officials reportedly went through the names of the 200 or so passengers on board.
The delay came as a row continued about US demands that undercover armed sky marshals be put on some flights.
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw defended the decision to ground some passenger flights, saying safety must come first.
Transport Secretary Alistair Darling said the flights were grounded only as a last resort.
However, neither minister would be drawn on the specific nature of any potential threat.
The pilots' union Balpa claimed the repeated grounding of 223 was a "political decision" linked to BA's reluctance to fly with sky marshals on board.
'Own judgements'
The flight was accompanied by US fighter jets last Wednesday (New Year's Eve), cancelled on Thursday and Friday and subject to delays on Saturday and Sunday.
Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Straw said the cancellations had been based on specific intelligence.
He denied that UK air security - including the decision to introduce air marshals on some planes - was being driven by the US.
"We make our own judgements on the basis of expert analysis by our brilliant security and intelligence services," Mr Straw said.
"There have been many hundreds of transatlantic flights taking place without any cancellation or delay, and thousands around the world," he added.
'Marshals row'
On Monday UK holiday company Thomas Cook Airlines joined the row over air marshals, saying it would refuse to operate flights if they were put on board because of safety concerns.
"For the time being, if a sky marshal presents himself, we will cancel the flight," said a spokesman.
"Like Balpa, we want to see captains remain in full control of the aircraft at all times."
A spokesman for BA said that "in principle, where appropriate, with agreed procedures in place, we'd be comfortable" with marshals on its aircraft.
Balpa officials were meeting BA to discuss the issue on Monday, and were due to meet Mr Darling on Tuesday.
The union has already reached agreement with one transatlantic carrier - Virgin Atlantic - on rules for working with the marshals.
It is calling for an "over-arching" agreement with the government, covering the use of marshals across all airlines.
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British Airways Flight 223 delayed four hours
London-Washington passengers stalled as U.S. reviews information
NBC News and news services
Updated: 2:39 p.m. ET Jan. 05, 2004
LONDON - The frequently interrupted British Airways Flight 223 was delayed again Monday as officials at Heathrow Airport awaited an OK from U.S. authorities before letting the loaded London-to-Washington flight take off.
The plane was stuck on the runway for more than four hours before it finally took off after 7 p.m. (2 p.m. ET). A spokeswoman for British Airways said the plane was put on hold as U.S. authorities reviewed information about the flight, including the passenger manifest.
“Once the aircraft is boarded, British Airways send information to the U.S. authorities and then await a response before the aircraft can take off,” she said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3827789/
London-Washington passengers stalled as U.S. reviews information
NBC News and news services
Updated: 2:39 p.m. ET Jan. 05, 2004
LONDON - The frequently interrupted British Airways Flight 223 was delayed again Monday as officials at Heathrow Airport awaited an OK from U.S. authorities before letting the loaded London-to-Washington flight take off.
The plane was stuck on the runway for more than four hours before it finally took off after 7 p.m. (2 p.m. ET). A spokeswoman for British Airways said the plane was put on hold as U.S. authorities reviewed information about the flight, including the passenger manifest.
“Once the aircraft is boarded, British Airways send information to the U.S. authorities and then await a response before the aircraft can take off,” she said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3827789/
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We saved BA from a WOMB Bomber
WEIRD PLOT OF WOMB BOMBER
By BRIAN BLOMQUIST and ANDY GELLER
January 4, 2004 -- A she-bomber planned to blow up British Airways Flight
223 over Washington with plastic explosives hidden inside her body, a
chilling new report says.
U.S. security services told Scotland Yard that the woman - almost certainly
linked to al Qaeda - planned to hide 8 to 12 ounces of the material tucked
inside her reproductive region, London's Mirror newspaper reported.
When the flight was over the nation's capital, the bomber would go to the
bathroom, remove the explosives and detonate a blast that would blow the
aircraft out of the skies.
A Homeland Security official said he was unaware of a specific threat of a
female suicide bomber who would hide explosives in her body.
But he added, "We've had concerns about IEDs" - improvised explosives
devices.
As a result, airport security screeners check for women wearing loose
clothing and other signs the official declined to talk about.
"Smuggling a bomb onto a plane by this method is one of our worst
nightmares," a senior Scotland Yard source told the newspaper. "If you do
not have specific information about the suspect, it would be impossible to
carry out an intimate body search of every female passenger."
Flight 223 to Washington's Dulles Airport was canceled for two days because
of fears that an al Qaeda terror team planned to hijack the plane and crash
it into the nation's capital.
The flight finally took off from London's Heathrow Airport yesterday
afternoon after being delayed for 3 hours and 20 minutes by security checks.
It landed safely at Dulles around 9:20 p.m. last night
All 268 passengers were searched and taken on board one by one as armed cops
and sniffer dogs stood by. Detectives questioned some passengers and U.S.
officials checked the full passenger list before the plane was given
clearance to leave.
British Airways also cancelled a morning flight from Dulles to Heathrow as
well as a flight from London to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and its return today.
The Scotland Yard source said intelligence information indicated the
womb-bomb attack was planned for "sometime over the holiday period." A
specific British Airways flight was mentioned.
"Because the intelligence did not identify a passenger by name, it was
decided to disrupt the plot by canceling the flights," the source said.
Britain's transportation minister, Alistair Darling, said "specific
information" led to the grounding of the British Airways flights and warned
that more cancellations might occur to prevent a Sept. 11-style attack.
"The threat that we now face is likely to endure for many years," Darling
told BBC Radio. "There may occasionally from time to time be the need to
ground a particular flight."
Asked if British authorities had information about specific threats, Darling
said, "Yes, we do."
A British Airways spokeswoman the cancellations were based on these threats
and not on pilots' opposition to having armed air marshals on board.
The United States said last week that it will not allow certain suspicious
flights into American airspace without the marshals on board.
Britain's powerful pilots' union opposes the idea and at one point urged its
pilots not to fly with the marshals on board.
But the union now says it won't block the plan.
Meanwhile, a Homeland Security spokesman said authorities have been
discussing security with the NFL and the NCAA during the playoff and college
bowl season.
And the British pilots think we are not helping them. We are protecting ourselves, and your airplanes and passengers. When will you all just wake up? Apology accepted.
By BRIAN BLOMQUIST and ANDY GELLER
January 4, 2004 -- A she-bomber planned to blow up British Airways Flight
223 over Washington with plastic explosives hidden inside her body, a
chilling new report says.
U.S. security services told Scotland Yard that the woman - almost certainly
linked to al Qaeda - planned to hide 8 to 12 ounces of the material tucked
inside her reproductive region, London's Mirror newspaper reported.
When the flight was over the nation's capital, the bomber would go to the
bathroom, remove the explosives and detonate a blast that would blow the
aircraft out of the skies.
A Homeland Security official said he was unaware of a specific threat of a
female suicide bomber who would hide explosives in her body.
But he added, "We've had concerns about IEDs" - improvised explosives
devices.
As a result, airport security screeners check for women wearing loose
clothing and other signs the official declined to talk about.
"Smuggling a bomb onto a plane by this method is one of our worst
nightmares," a senior Scotland Yard source told the newspaper. "If you do
not have specific information about the suspect, it would be impossible to
carry out an intimate body search of every female passenger."
Flight 223 to Washington's Dulles Airport was canceled for two days because
of fears that an al Qaeda terror team planned to hijack the plane and crash
it into the nation's capital.
The flight finally took off from London's Heathrow Airport yesterday
afternoon after being delayed for 3 hours and 20 minutes by security checks.
It landed safely at Dulles around 9:20 p.m. last night
All 268 passengers were searched and taken on board one by one as armed cops
and sniffer dogs stood by. Detectives questioned some passengers and U.S.
officials checked the full passenger list before the plane was given
clearance to leave.
British Airways also cancelled a morning flight from Dulles to Heathrow as
well as a flight from London to Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, and its return today.
The Scotland Yard source said intelligence information indicated the
womb-bomb attack was planned for "sometime over the holiday period." A
specific British Airways flight was mentioned.
"Because the intelligence did not identify a passenger by name, it was
decided to disrupt the plot by canceling the flights," the source said.
Britain's transportation minister, Alistair Darling, said "specific
information" led to the grounding of the British Airways flights and warned
that more cancellations might occur to prevent a Sept. 11-style attack.
"The threat that we now face is likely to endure for many years," Darling
told BBC Radio. "There may occasionally from time to time be the need to
ground a particular flight."
Asked if British authorities had information about specific threats, Darling
said, "Yes, we do."
A British Airways spokeswoman the cancellations were based on these threats
and not on pilots' opposition to having armed air marshals on board.
The United States said last week that it will not allow certain suspicious
flights into American airspace without the marshals on board.
Britain's powerful pilots' union opposes the idea and at one point urged its
pilots not to fly with the marshals on board.
But the union now says it won't block the plan.
Meanwhile, a Homeland Security spokesman said authorities have been
discussing security with the NFL and the NCAA during the playoff and college
bowl season.
And the British pilots think we are not helping them. We are protecting ourselves, and your airplanes and passengers. When will you all just wake up? Apology accepted.
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>>Britain's powerful pilots' union opposes the idea and at one point urged its pilots not to fly with the marshals on board.<<
Yeah but they are already backpedaling, they'll come around as they always do...
Yeah but they are already backpedaling, they'll come around as they always do...
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Armed sky marshals on board is NOT the right thing to be doing, so no apology from this Limey.....
Europe has been awake to terrorism for a very long time - just remember that DD.
Europe has been awake to terrorism for a very long time - just remember that DD.
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White Knight,
Not only do you need Air Marshals, but you also need better security and passenger pre-screening. Read the article again please. You're welcome.
Techman,
Atleast we are looking at the rosters. People at BA need to get into the game also. And, the French government agreed to cancel those flights also. Had they pre-screened the names and actually pulled those passengers aside first, maybe the flight would not have been cancelled, but no--we are the ones checking each roster instead of AF. We always have to clean up and protect you guys over there. Bon Jour!
Not only do you need Air Marshals, but you also need better security and passenger pre-screening. Read the article again please. You're welcome.
Techman,
Atleast we are looking at the rosters. People at BA need to get into the game also. And, the French government agreed to cancel those flights also. Had they pre-screened the names and actually pulled those passengers aside first, maybe the flight would not have been cancelled, but no--we are the ones checking each roster instead of AF. We always have to clean up and protect you guys over there. Bon Jour!
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Well DD, that would have been a good wind-up if it weren't so obvious that you actually believe your own hype.
As it has been said many times, terrorism is nothing new to us over here, so we do have some modest experience of how to deal with it. And we have done quite well, compared to some, even without a huge Department of State Security.
But then again, as you obviously are the new masters of all things security, we might as well just roll over and be trampled on.
As it has been said many times, terrorism is nothing new to us over here, so we do have some modest experience of how to deal with it. And we have done quite well, compared to some, even without a huge Department of State Security.
But then again, as you obviously are the new masters of all things security, we might as well just roll over and be trampled on.
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Techman,
I am glad you finally agree and "see the light." I know about your terrorist troubles over there, and you have been a great ally. But, sometimes people in Europe don't react to problems like we do in the States, and that is not good. Tighter security has been needed since 9-11, and now we are getting it. I think this will also send a message to them showing we are ALL watching. Cheers!
I am glad you finally agree and "see the light." I know about your terrorist troubles over there, and you have been a great ally. But, sometimes people in Europe don't react to problems like we do in the States, and that is not good. Tighter security has been needed since 9-11, and now we are getting it. I think this will also send a message to them showing we are ALL watching. Cheers!