BA Washington flights and security threats (merged)
foxtrot xray
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RE:AIRWAY
Why is it that experts like airhead..er Airway....have all the great answers to all problems? I guess his student pilot status does mean something..but what?
As one who has to aviate in US airspace (including NYC and DCA/IAD terminal airspace) frequently enduring the security restrictions is a pain the arse and does seem to be overkill most of the time. However, I guess it is working.
PLease don't opine about that which ye know zilch.
Why is it that experts like airhead..er Airway....have all the great answers to all problems? I guess his student pilot status does mean something..but what?
As one who has to aviate in US airspace (including NYC and DCA/IAD terminal airspace) frequently enduring the security restrictions is a pain the arse and does seem to be overkill most of the time. However, I guess it is working.
PLease don't opine about that which ye know zilch.
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BALPA state they do not want Sky Marshals on board British Aircraft as it is too dangerous. They state British Airlines would be better off not flying if there was a credible threat.
Now we have a flight cancelled it seems that this over the top for some and lets blame the OTT Americans.
I wish they could make their mind up.
Now we have a flight cancelled it seems that this over the top for some and lets blame the OTT Americans.
I wish they could make their mind up.
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Oh come on, look on the bright side. At least it is a more interesting reason to cancel than technical problems or weather. 
411A
If the US was serious about stamping out terrorism, they would introduce profiling/screening despite the protestations of some groups.
The current knee-jerk approach is a joke.
411A
If the US was serious about stamping out terrorism, they would introduce profiling/screening despite the protestations of some groups.
The current knee-jerk approach is a joke.
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MOR
Profiling and screening are being done now but IMO not to the extent they need to be.
You will find that the Sky Marshals used now have had a very high degree of training, and quite frankly simply cannot understand just why some foreign aircarriers (or unions) consider the use of armed properly trained folks onboard not suitable.
Suspect it is the 'head in the sand' European outlook with regard to those that would do harm to others.
You have to remember, the terrorists want you
dead, no if, ands or buts about it.
You simply cannot reason with 'em...just eliminate 'em.
Profiling and screening are being done now but IMO not to the extent they need to be.
You will find that the Sky Marshals used now have had a very high degree of training, and quite frankly simply cannot understand just why some foreign aircarriers (or unions) consider the use of armed properly trained folks onboard not suitable.
Suspect it is the 'head in the sand' European outlook with regard to those that would do harm to others.
You have to remember, the terrorists want you
dead, no if, ands or buts about it.
You simply cannot reason with 'em...just eliminate 'em.
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411A
Not even close to the extent it needs to be (screening that is).
Guns... Americans love 'em. The sacred right to bear arms. Shoot first, ask questions later. How many gun deaths in the US last year?
Europeans hate them. Rather not fly than have guns on board.
Lots of good arguments on both sides (see the relevant thread), but I am absolutely with you on the subject of eliminating the bad guys. No argument at all. Saves all the expense of a pointless trial as well.
Not even close to the extent it needs to be (screening that is).
Guns... Americans love 'em. The sacred right to bear arms. Shoot first, ask questions later. How many gun deaths in the US last year?
Europeans hate them. Rather not fly than have guns on board.
Lots of good arguments on both sides (see the relevant thread), but I am absolutely with you on the subject of eliminating the bad guys. No argument at all. Saves all the expense of a pointless trial as well.
foxtrot xray
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As a 60 something yank, it is very disturbing to see the rhetoric from what appear to be Brits, or derivatives thereof, which reveals an anti-American sentiment which seems to run deep and to be widespread. I suspect that some of these posters are too young to know the history of the US/UK relationship for the past 90 years. Consider this, you blokes, one of your national epicurean delights is still Yorkshire pudding and not Wienerschnitzle thanks to people like my grandfather and father.
One thing I do know is that you just have to look at their profiles to see that they are not pilots... which begs the question.."what the hell are they doing on the PROFESSIONAL PILOTS Rumor Network besides mucking it up with all this diatrbe.
Some vetting is in order!
One thing I do know is that you just have to look at their profiles to see that they are not pilots... which begs the question.."what the hell are they doing on the PROFESSIONAL PILOTS Rumor Network besides mucking it up with all this diatrbe.
Some vetting is in order!
A-310: those are reasonable questions and have been debated before on Pprune. Isn't it amazing how little interest most people have in their own recent history?
Last night we landed on runway 12 at Wash. Dulles, about 2200 local. Although we knew nothing about this situation, it looked strange to taxi north on either Zulu or Yankee outer taxiway to later turn east at Bravo, as we passed what looked like a BA widebody on the inner taxiway or a ramp area. This was just east of the beginning or runway 01 Left. The plane had numerous airport shuttles (with those large "fins") parked right next to the fuselage. I call the shuttles landsharks, and they carry pax and crews from the main terminal to at least two other terminals, and vice versa-our gates are in 'B' terminal. Wish we had overheard something about it.
It looked like a strange, remote place to park, even for a chartered aircraft etc. Our nearby hotel has so many excellent tv channels that I never watched any news. This morning we taxied out to depart on runway 01 L at 0920 local time, making sure that all flows plus checklists were done and looking forward to seeing the sunny hills of VA and PA (via JERES on the Westminster 300* radial to JST, HAGUD, DJB...) and never noticed any other planes in the southwest area-and no BA.
Last night we landed on runway 12 at Wash. Dulles, about 2200 local. Although we knew nothing about this situation, it looked strange to taxi north on either Zulu or Yankee outer taxiway to later turn east at Bravo, as we passed what looked like a BA widebody on the inner taxiway or a ramp area. This was just east of the beginning or runway 01 Left. The plane had numerous airport shuttles (with those large "fins") parked right next to the fuselage. I call the shuttles landsharks, and they carry pax and crews from the main terminal to at least two other terminals, and vice versa-our gates are in 'B' terminal. Wish we had overheard something about it.
It looked like a strange, remote place to park, even for a chartered aircraft etc. Our nearby hotel has so many excellent tv channels that I never watched any news. This morning we taxied out to depart on runway 01 L at 0920 local time, making sure that all flows plus checklists were done and looking forward to seeing the sunny hills of VA and PA (via JERES on the Westminster 300* radial to JST, HAGUD, DJB...) and never noticed any other planes in the southwest area-and no BA.
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First of all, I do know that this is a forum for Professional Pilots, if a
moderator thinks that I should not be posting here, please remove my post.
To A310driver
Dear Sir,
You, quite correctly (at least judging Your's and AIRWAYS' profiles),
state that you have more aviation experience than AIRWAY.
Yet it is my opinion that this thread is not about flying an aircraft,
but rather a discussion on the treatment and handling of security.
This subject, is of interest not only to airline pilots, but also to
passenger and other people worried with the current state of the world.
Your experience as a pilot, might give you a view (and a damn good and
valid one) of security regarding threats to the aircraft, but will not
make you an "Instant-all-around-security-expert (just add water) TM".
This experience does not give you the right to say (in a very rude
manner) that someone else's opinion on an event that is only tangential
to the act of flying an aircraft is invalid.
If you disagree, say so and present your arguments!
To 411A,
I think that properly trained sky-marshal might be one of the few
effective solutions available at present. Nevertheless must Europeans
(me included) are uneasy when around guns and some resistance should
be expected.
Calling the outlook of Europeans towards terrorism as "Head in the Sand"
is rather ignorant.
We have had terrorism since Mr McVeigh was a baby.
Just for a sample:
- The Italians had the red-brigades. Killings and bombings through the 70s
and 80s .
They also had a bloody terrorist attack on an El AL check in counter
in Milan(?).
- The British had to deal with the IRA.
- The Germans had Baader-Meinhoff (spelling).
- The French had to deal with the spill-out of the terrorist actions in
Algeria in the 90s, having a series of bomb attacks on crowded places.
- The Spanish have ETA (since the early 70s), during this Christmas they
where successful in stopping an attempt to bomb one of the main rail
stations in Madrid (which would be crowded).
I am sure I have missed some countries and terrorist organizations.
I guess that some would say that the US is the one that is rather new
on the game, and previously had a "head in the sand" attitude towards
terrorism.
And now, MY opinion on the main issue of the thread (and, for the record,
I am not an ATPL and only fly things that are much lighter than what AIRWAY
flies , nor am I involved with security).
Terrorism should not be taken lightly, therefore security should be very
high. This is obvious.
But if you keep having all these high profile "non events" you will get:
- People getting tired. People will start to look at this "security" as
an ineffective nuisance, and probably start pressing for a relaxation
of security (A very bad thing).
- An important impact on tourism. Some in Europe are postponing their
non essential travel to the US. Some of you might say that those that
don't want to go are not welcome anyway. I guess that the US tourism
industry would disagree.
If these events are mostly with non-US airlines, non-US citizens will
look at it with a great deal of suspicion.
This will further erode the capital of "good will" which the US gained
after 11th of September, and make for more diplomatic friction.
I know that the US had a rather brutal wake-up with what happened on the
11th of September, but some of these "security actions" are quite
excessive, and something might be gained by having a good hard look at
them.
If any green card "joke" arises, I (and probably a great deal of other
non-Americans) will be doing the laughing.
Kind regards
CS-DNA
moderator thinks that I should not be posting here, please remove my post.
To A310driver
Dear Sir,
You, quite correctly (at least judging Your's and AIRWAYS' profiles),
state that you have more aviation experience than AIRWAY.
Yet it is my opinion that this thread is not about flying an aircraft,
but rather a discussion on the treatment and handling of security.
This subject, is of interest not only to airline pilots, but also to
passenger and other people worried with the current state of the world.
Your experience as a pilot, might give you a view (and a damn good and
valid one) of security regarding threats to the aircraft, but will not
make you an "Instant-all-around-security-expert (just add water) TM".
This experience does not give you the right to say (in a very rude
manner) that someone else's opinion on an event that is only tangential
to the act of flying an aircraft is invalid.
If you disagree, say so and present your arguments!
To 411A,
I think that properly trained sky-marshal might be one of the few
effective solutions available at present. Nevertheless must Europeans
(me included) are uneasy when around guns and some resistance should
be expected.
Calling the outlook of Europeans towards terrorism as "Head in the Sand"
is rather ignorant.
We have had terrorism since Mr McVeigh was a baby.
Just for a sample:
- The Italians had the red-brigades. Killings and bombings through the 70s
and 80s .
They also had a bloody terrorist attack on an El AL check in counter
in Milan(?).
- The British had to deal with the IRA.
- The Germans had Baader-Meinhoff (spelling).
- The French had to deal with the spill-out of the terrorist actions in
Algeria in the 90s, having a series of bomb attacks on crowded places.
- The Spanish have ETA (since the early 70s), during this Christmas they
where successful in stopping an attempt to bomb one of the main rail
stations in Madrid (which would be crowded).
I am sure I have missed some countries and terrorist organizations.
I guess that some would say that the US is the one that is rather new
on the game, and previously had a "head in the sand" attitude towards
terrorism.
And now, MY opinion on the main issue of the thread (and, for the record,
I am not an ATPL and only fly things that are much lighter than what AIRWAY
flies , nor am I involved with security).
Terrorism should not be taken lightly, therefore security should be very
high. This is obvious.
But if you keep having all these high profile "non events" you will get:
- People getting tired. People will start to look at this "security" as
an ineffective nuisance, and probably start pressing for a relaxation
of security (A very bad thing).
- An important impact on tourism. Some in Europe are postponing their
non essential travel to the US. Some of you might say that those that
don't want to go are not welcome anyway. I guess that the US tourism
industry would disagree.
If these events are mostly with non-US airlines, non-US citizens will
look at it with a great deal of suspicion.
This will further erode the capital of "good will" which the US gained
after 11th of September, and make for more diplomatic friction.
I know that the US had a rather brutal wake-up with what happened on the
11th of September, but some of these "security actions" are quite
excessive, and something might be gained by having a good hard look at
them.
If any green card "joke" arises, I (and probably a great deal of other
non-Americans) will be doing the laughing.
Kind regards
CS-DNA
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BA reviews US flight amid alert
British Airways is considering whether to ground one of its Washington flights for a second day amid security fears.
On Thursday, the 1505GMT flight BA223 from London Heathrow to the US capital was cancelled in the light of security information.
It came a day after the same flight was held for three hours at Washington while US agents questioned passengers.
The exact nature of the threat is not known but officials said it was "fact-related".
A BA spokesman said the airline was still hoping to operate Friday afternoon's flight to Washington but a firm decision would be taken in the morning...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3362043.stm
British Airways is considering whether to ground one of its Washington flights for a second day amid security fears.
On Thursday, the 1505GMT flight BA223 from London Heathrow to the US capital was cancelled in the light of security information.
It came a day after the same flight was held for three hours at Washington while US agents questioned passengers.
The exact nature of the threat is not known but officials said it was "fact-related".
A BA spokesman said the airline was still hoping to operate Friday afternoon's flight to Washington but a firm decision would be taken in the morning...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3362043.stm
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Could the sudden cancellation be "leverage" to "justify" the need for sky marshalls?
Out of interest, what power has the UK Govt to cancel a given flight from say BA or another carrier ex UK? I can see they can stop incoming flights (this is more a technical question, as if they can stop flights to the USA, they could stop a flight to somewhere else for other reasons).
Unsure what will happen. Finnish press said Finnair was not going to use skymarshals and implication was including on flights to the U.S.
I know personally I have cancelled all traffic to the U.S since September 11. Not due to a fear of terrorism (Northern Ireland has given a good grounding!) but to the hassles and pain in the ass factor many colleagues have reported. Shame, as I have a craving for Philly Cheeseburgers, Key Lime Pie and Giodiarnos (sp!) pizza from Chicago.
Out of interest, what power has the UK Govt to cancel a given flight from say BA or another carrier ex UK? I can see they can stop incoming flights (this is more a technical question, as if they can stop flights to the USA, they could stop a flight to somewhere else for other reasons).
Unsure what will happen. Finnish press said Finnair was not going to use skymarshals and implication was including on flights to the U.S.
I know personally I have cancelled all traffic to the U.S since September 11. Not due to a fear of terrorism (Northern Ireland has given a good grounding!) but to the hassles and pain in the ass factor many colleagues have reported. Shame, as I have a craving for Philly Cheeseburgers, Key Lime Pie and Giodiarnos (sp!) pizza from Chicago.
PPRuNe Co-Pilot
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A310driver
Yes my student pilot status does mean something, it means im a student pilot, i think thats plain English
Why is it that experts like airhead..er Airway....have all the great answers to all problems? I guess his student pilot status does mean something..but what?
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We don't know what the exact nature of this threat was but it is difficult to see why the flight was cancelled. I am not an expert, but surely the responses should be on an escalating scale.
If the threat was a potential terrorist on board - surely all passengers should have been allowed on, then screened off one by one until the terrorist was found.
If the threat was a potential bomb on board, search the plane and then allow it to leave, albeit delayed.
If it was a threat to down the plane by SAM, I think we'd have seen more activity around the airports concerned.
If the terrorists can get any flight cancelled with a phone call it gives them the power to totally disrupt our lives. Didn't it always used to be the rule that terrorist threats would not be made public as it would wreck the airline industry to be continually disrupted by false alarms?
- Michael
If the threat was a potential terrorist on board - surely all passengers should have been allowed on, then screened off one by one until the terrorist was found.
If the threat was a potential bomb on board, search the plane and then allow it to leave, albeit delayed.
If it was a threat to down the plane by SAM, I think we'd have seen more activity around the airports concerned.
If the terrorists can get any flight cancelled with a phone call it gives them the power to totally disrupt our lives. Didn't it always used to be the rule that terrorist threats would not be made public as it would wreck the airline industry to be continually disrupted by false alarms?
- Michael
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I think it is fair to say most people on this forum ARE aviators of some sort or at least he a keen interest in it. Therefore what they know about the British or American 'Intelligence' system could be written on the back of a postcard.
If an intelligence expert was to tell you how to fly a plane I am sure you would tell him where to get off. So applying that theory why can pilots not accept that when the experts are in receipt of 'Credible Intelligence' they must be wrong. Everyone to their own.
Mainfrog 2
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A credit check is done by computer in a store to make sure your credit worthy, while you wait. How come this isn't possible with data relating to terrorism
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Statements like this prove my point about the lack of understanding in how intelligence is gathered. Last time I done a credit check on myself I couldn't find the box that said whether Osama Bin Laden had paid of my last three balances (Although that would have been nice)
There is no point in asking how intelligence is gathered as those in the know wont tell you.
Just accept it and remember it is not an exact science.
If an intelligence expert was to tell you how to fly a plane I am sure you would tell him where to get off. So applying that theory why can pilots not accept that when the experts are in receipt of 'Credible Intelligence' they must be wrong. Everyone to their own.
Mainfrog 2
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A credit check is done by computer in a store to make sure your credit worthy, while you wait. How come this isn't possible with data relating to terrorism
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Statements like this prove my point about the lack of understanding in how intelligence is gathered. Last time I done a credit check on myself I couldn't find the box that said whether Osama Bin Laden had paid of my last three balances (Although that would have been nice)
There is no point in asking how intelligence is gathered as those in the know wont tell you.
Just accept it and remember it is not an exact science.
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It would be interesting to know how many passengers are going to be left on this flight, by the time that it leaves (if it does).
For those that have a "non-cancelable, non-refundable" cheap ticket, how do they decide that the "risk" to their lives is more than the cost of the cheap ticket?
For those that have a "non-cancelable, non-refundable" cheap ticket, how do they decide that the "risk" to their lives is more than the cost of the cheap ticket?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3362043.stm
BA to go ahead with flight. Also it has finally emerged...
FBI investigators don't work for free and are not on temp or contract work. They need bangs and scares to earn a living. This is no conspiracy right? 
BA to go ahead with flight. Also it has finally emerged...
In December six Air France flights from Paris to Los Angeles were grounded, at the request of the US.
The French government now believes the FBI had wrongly identified six passengers as potential terrorists, partly because of mistakes translating Arabic names.
The French government now believes the FBI had wrongly identified six passengers as potential terrorists, partly because of mistakes translating Arabic names.
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I find it strange that people keep saying that the grounding of the flight was needless, and 'nothing happened anyway'. Isn't that a good thing and surely the whole point? Intercepting and stopping a terrorist act is all about making sure nothing happens and that things go on as normal. As frustrating as the current security procedures are, the fact that so far, nothing has happened since september 11th is an indication that they are yealding results.
We will never know how many would be terrorists have walked away without checking in, when they saw that their chance if success was slight.
We will never know how many would be terrorists have walked away without checking in, when they saw that their chance if success was slight.
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Interesting how it only seems to be non-US airlines who are having problems with the services being 'bothered' by 'terrorism threats/scares'. Also what gets me is, who fly across the atlantic?....BA, AF and a couple of other european based airlines....Oh and then theres the US carriers.
Well lets see, if we can scare the europeans into not flying with there own countries airliners through 'scare tactics' then they will fly with the american airlines. Wow, instant pickup in the american based airlines sales....
Maybe i've got it all wrong, i'm sure someone will tell me soon. But you have to admit, it is an interesting thought and i certainly wouldn't put it past the US for doing it. And before anyone says its just becasue i am against america, i'm really not, just the government!
Expedite.
Well lets see, if we can scare the europeans into not flying with there own countries airliners through 'scare tactics' then they will fly with the american airlines. Wow, instant pickup in the american based airlines sales....
Maybe i've got it all wrong, i'm sure someone will tell me soon. But you have to admit, it is an interesting thought and i certainly wouldn't put it past the US for doing it. And before anyone says its just becasue i am against america, i'm really not, just the government!
Expedite.