Tired budget jet pilots 'endanger passengers' - The Times
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're still a nutter, Mr B*** S***!
No, I'm not on BALPA recruiting drive so no thin veneer needed. I hold no BALPA appointment, although I am a member. I just happen to think that they are spot-on with this one, which it is surely my right to express as an opinion.
As to Ryan Air: why does MR O'L hate everyone so much? Thread creep here, but the endless aggro is damaging his own business now. Frankly one has to admire aspects of what he has done to air travel, but why is it all accompanied by the avalanche of bovver boy rhetoric? As others suggest, your loyalty really is commendable, but I doubt it'll get you far in dealing with the MOL.
Best of luck to you - I'm glad to hear someone contented with their lot but I think you need to be more aware of the conditions facing others around you in the industry.
I make no apology for reiterating that I see no need to SHOUT!!
No, I'm not on BALPA recruiting drive so no thin veneer needed. I hold no BALPA appointment, although I am a member. I just happen to think that they are spot-on with this one, which it is surely my right to express as an opinion.
As to Ryan Air: why does MR O'L hate everyone so much? Thread creep here, but the endless aggro is damaging his own business now. Frankly one has to admire aspects of what he has done to air travel, but why is it all accompanied by the avalanche of bovver boy rhetoric? As others suggest, your loyalty really is commendable, but I doubt it'll get you far in dealing with the MOL.
Best of luck to you - I'm glad to hear someone contented with their lot but I think you need to be more aware of the conditions facing others around you in the industry.
I make no apology for reiterating that I see no need to SHOUT!!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Languedoc
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sour Orange Juice
As to Ryan Air: why does MR O'L hate everyone so much?
You force me to repeat myself. I choose NOT to work for the Orange People. That choice is yours to make too. In my case the decision was taken in part because I object to their rostering principles, but mainly because I think their business model is profoundly flawed; and that the Airbus purchase anyway (but especially coming so soon after GO) will prove to be their undoing. In fact, loaded1, I was approached recently by an agency who offered Ģ8500 per month on a six month command contract at Orangeland, so I suppose what I read here about departures enmasse might be true. Needless to say, I turned it down.
Just a thought, though, rather than heap scorn on RW Inc. for Orange rostering, why not turn your attention to the SRG in the CAA? It is they who reviewed and approved EZJ's F&DT limitation schedule, they who published CAP371, and they who are responsible for the oversight and fatigue management/welfare of all G registered pilots. Uncle Ray can only play cards with the one's he's dealt, after all.
Good luck to you too, loaded1.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,642
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The problem remains that CAP371 is out of date and needs modernisation. At the best of times it forces poor rostering such as earlies to lates as there is little choice.
If it is becoming such a problem then perhaps the max working days should be bought down to 5 days, or a reduction in 7 / 14 28 day (rolling) duty hours.
Mind you if Pilots want to come down to 9-5er hours i wonder if you'll agree to a big pay cut to pay for all the new Pilots required???. Seems a fair trade to me.....
If it is becoming such a problem then perhaps the max working days should be bought down to 5 days, or a reduction in 7 / 14 28 day (rolling) duty hours.
Mind you if Pilots want to come down to 9-5er hours i wonder if you'll agree to a big pay cut to pay for all the new Pilots required???. Seems a fair trade to me.....
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Becareful with the 9 - 5 comparison. Try this:
Take your roster and calculate the times you work during Monday Friday 9 - 5. Then factor in the % overtime you would have recived during all the usually considered anti-social hours; weekends, night shifts public holidays etc.
Then look at your gross pay and calculate what the basic slaary is.
It will give you aperplexy and you'll wonder how you could have been ripped off for so long.
I believe during the nusres dispute ( which one) of many moons ago, when B. Cal still were going strong; the then chairman was asked to say what factor he included in crews salary for all the anti social hours and jet lag etc. I think he said 10 - 15%. In fact no-one had every thought about it. and such a lowly figure caused much humour. Still, nothing changed, did it?
Take your roster and calculate the times you work during Monday Friday 9 - 5. Then factor in the % overtime you would have recived during all the usually considered anti-social hours; weekends, night shifts public holidays etc.
Then look at your gross pay and calculate what the basic slaary is.
It will give you aperplexy and you'll wonder how you could have been ripped off for so long.
I believe during the nusres dispute ( which one) of many moons ago, when B. Cal still were going strong; the then chairman was asked to say what factor he included in crews salary for all the anti social hours and jet lag etc. I think he said 10 - 15%. In fact no-one had every thought about it. and such a lowly figure caused much humour. Still, nothing changed, did it?
In my opinion CAP371 is the problem. It is so outdated and antediluvian that it does not allow pilots to work patterns that suit them. Nor does it allow the management to get effective use of the pilots within its constraints without pi**ing off the pilots in turn and so ruining their lifestyles.
Ryanair pilots have a much better lifestyle than EZY for they do not have to work within CAP371. My lifestyle has improved beyond recognition since I moved across La Manche five years ago (I do not fly for Ryanair).
I never, ever want to work for a CAP371 company again thank you very much for I was permanently knackered in those days.
I don't even believe that a revamp of CAP371 will solve the problem. Someone has to realise finally that Queen Victoria is dead and that Douglas Bader has gone off to the happy hangar in the sky complete with his undoubted encyclopaedic knowledge of the problems of airline flying of which he had so much experience.
Ryanair pilots have a much better lifestyle than EZY for they do not have to work within CAP371. My lifestyle has improved beyond recognition since I moved across La Manche five years ago (I do not fly for Ryanair).
I never, ever want to work for a CAP371 company again thank you very much for I was permanently knackered in those days.
I don't even believe that a revamp of CAP371 will solve the problem. Someone has to realise finally that Queen Victoria is dead and that Douglas Bader has gone off to the happy hangar in the sky complete with his undoubted encyclopaedic knowledge of the problems of airline flying of which he had so much experience.
Last edited by JW411; 22nd Feb 2004 at 01:06.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another 'becareful'.
The other side of La Manche does not mean utopia; ask the Italians.
I agree that 371 needs totally revamping. It is not that it is out dated; it is that it tries to be all things to all operations. It can not be. The CAA cover their backsides with 'the spirit' of 371 and then don't police it.
However, and here comes the JAA FTL question again, the issue needs to be addressed over the whole industry; and that is worldwide!!!!!!! Pasengers are the customers of the international industry, and crews the slaves of it.
Becareful with the argument that RYR has a better lifestyle than ej. Being the 'best of a bad lot' does not make you good. That attitude is exactly what managemt uses to presuade the crews that they are top of the tree. Only be better that the No.2 and crews will not migrate. A nose in front is enough. It is still not be as good as it should be. i.e No.2 is running the show not No. 1. EJ claimed it wanted to be the 'benchmark company'. RW claimed that the combination of GO & EJ would lead to a market leader which would be the combination of the best of both.
Hands up those who agree that has happened?
There is much work to be done!
The other side of La Manche does not mean utopia; ask the Italians.
I agree that 371 needs totally revamping. It is not that it is out dated; it is that it tries to be all things to all operations. It can not be. The CAA cover their backsides with 'the spirit' of 371 and then don't police it.
However, and here comes the JAA FTL question again, the issue needs to be addressed over the whole industry; and that is worldwide!!!!!!! Pasengers are the customers of the international industry, and crews the slaves of it.
Becareful with the argument that RYR has a better lifestyle than ej. Being the 'best of a bad lot' does not make you good. That attitude is exactly what managemt uses to presuade the crews that they are top of the tree. Only be better that the No.2 and crews will not migrate. A nose in front is enough. It is still not be as good as it should be. i.e No.2 is running the show not No. 1. EJ claimed it wanted to be the 'benchmark company'. RW claimed that the combination of GO & EJ would lead to a market leader which would be the combination of the best of both.
Hands up those who agree that has happened?
There is much work to be done!
Italy is only one country on the other side of La Manche. I do not work in Italy nor do I have any desire to. My present work pattern is as close as I am ever going to get to Utopia. It may well not suit others but the 200-odd pilots around me seem happy with their lot.
Are you seriously suggesting that we try to get a worldwide FTL system agreed? If so then I wish you luck. I have serious doubts that even getting a common European scheme up and running within the next 50 years will be too much to achieve unless it is couched in such broad terms that it will be worthless.
Are you seriously suggesting that we try to get a worldwide FTL system agreed? If so then I wish you luck. I have serious doubts that even getting a common European scheme up and running within the next 50 years will be too much to achieve unless it is couched in such broad terms that it will be worthless.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JW411.
Much was tounge in cheek, and perhaps to provoke a response, but it is somewhat odd that, a/c manufacture is licenced to agreed worldwide standards by the 2 main bodies, (sometimes slightly diferently, but they are trying to come together on common ground,) both are constricted by the same safety requirements in design, but the weakest link in thier operation is of random quality. I know FCL's can be more common, but there is more to it than that......
Medical standards try to be provided to international standards. Hotels have a common standard worldwide. You're right, having watched the fiasco of drawing up a European FTL scheme over the past 12 years fail completely, the idea of a worldwide standard will only come about with 1 worldwide airline, perhaps; and there's a nightmare.
As you have declared, and I assume you work for a profitable airline, it is possible to be cost effectively productive and have a life. It is more than a shame that others can not follow suit. I suspect you might work for a red & gold outfit not a million miles from the heart of the EU. If so, would you agree that the positive atmosphere within is driven from the top, and therein lies a model others could adopt?
I wish you all the very best, and like you I quit the 371 enviroment many moons ago. The culture that work is the beall & endall of life's raison d'etre, is a UK failling. There appears so little time to create a healthy balance in one's life.
Much was tounge in cheek, and perhaps to provoke a response, but it is somewhat odd that, a/c manufacture is licenced to agreed worldwide standards by the 2 main bodies, (sometimes slightly diferently, but they are trying to come together on common ground,) both are constricted by the same safety requirements in design, but the weakest link in thier operation is of random quality. I know FCL's can be more common, but there is more to it than that......
Medical standards try to be provided to international standards. Hotels have a common standard worldwide. You're right, having watched the fiasco of drawing up a European FTL scheme over the past 12 years fail completely, the idea of a worldwide standard will only come about with 1 worldwide airline, perhaps; and there's a nightmare.
As you have declared, and I assume you work for a profitable airline, it is possible to be cost effectively productive and have a life. It is more than a shame that others can not follow suit. I suspect you might work for a red & gold outfit not a million miles from the heart of the EU. If so, would you agree that the positive atmosphere within is driven from the top, and therein lies a model others could adopt?
I wish you all the very best, and like you I quit the 371 enviroment many moons ago. The culture that work is the beall & endall of life's raison d'etre, is a UK failling. There appears so little time to create a healthy balance in one's life.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JW411, I would be very grateful to know where you are in Europe? Do you fly for a major? Regional?
Rat 5, same question to you too if I may?
Email through pprune much appreciated if you'd rather not post.
Rat 5, same question to you too if I may?
Email through pprune much appreciated if you'd rather not post.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
in the light of Constant Speed DU's recent thread 'Ezy...pastures greener' and at risk of antagonising BS again, perhaps it's time to send this....
.....back to the top....
...and to implore those so discontnet with the rostering at easy to write to their MP's as I did.
My MP has sent me the reply he received from Gwyneth Gunwoody MP, Chairman of the Select Committee on Transport which states that pilot fatigue is not presently a subject being investigated by the Select Committee but it is possible that it could be by a future inquiry. She has copied our correspondence to the Clerks to the Committee with a view to seeking my submission should it become the subject of any future inquiry.
My view is that with sufficient pressure now from pilot constituents to their MP's it is more likely to become a subject. Worth a simple letter or email?
WE (not a pilot).
.....back to the top....
...and to implore those so discontnet with the rostering at easy to write to their MP's as I did.
My MP has sent me the reply he received from Gwyneth Gunwoody MP, Chairman of the Select Committee on Transport which states that pilot fatigue is not presently a subject being investigated by the Select Committee but it is possible that it could be by a future inquiry. She has copied our correspondence to the Clerks to the Committee with a view to seeking my submission should it become the subject of any future inquiry.
My view is that with sufficient pressure now from pilot constituents to their MP's it is more likely to become a subject. Worth a simple letter or email?
WE (not a pilot).
Moderator
Join Date: Feb 1998
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back to the top to keep everyone thinking about hours and fatigue with the proposed changes in FTL's.
Below some of the latest from Balpa.
For those pilots/potential pilots within europe not in a union the text it is worth some thought as it will also affect your future lifestyle.
There is a very real danger that a European Council of Ministers meeting on 10th/11th June could adopt new FTLs. The proposed Sub Part Q would, for instance, introduce a basic FDP limit for 2 pilots of 13 hours with an extra hour on top with "operator's discretion", minimum rest periods calculated on previous FDP - NOT duty - and insufficient reduction in FDP for multi sector days.
Together with our colleagues in ECA we are pressing
* To ensure the Council of Ministers does not endorse the current proposals.
* To build political and public support for a European FTL scheme designed using scientific evidence.
In support of our case we are arguing that:
* Science is not being allowed to express a view.
* Professional pilots are concerned for the safety of the travelling public
* We want a European scheme based on science, not political compromise.
* The current proposals
o would increase the probability of accidents (see attached chart from a recent FAA report on probability of accident v flight time)
o lead to working arrangements that affect the body more than the drink/driving level
o are at odds with what the law is now saying
o are less humane than the directive for the transport of animals! (see Directive attached)
We have agreed within ECA a campaign that will operate in each country and at European level. It has 4 levels:
Level 1 - Political.
* Members are already writing to their MP and Alistair Darling - the UK Minister who would attend the Council meeting. Examples of 2 of these are attached. We would ask all CCs to encourage members to follow this lead. Templates are not being supplied - in your own words works best; in person is a killer!
* We have written to prospective MEPs (copy attached) seeking their support both now, and in case the matter is agreed by the Council and goes back to the European Parliament. MEPs might be susceptible to an approach now (see website)
* In addition to writing to our Minister later next week, we will be lobbying the Commission and submitting scientific evidence that challenges their draft regulation. We will be quoting Article 95(3) of the Treaty that says laws must be written using available science. We will follow this up in both Houses of our own Parliament and seeking a review.
Level 2 - Legal
* We are exploring whether there is now European case law on how standby is counted.
* As with the Police Sky Marshall debate, we are exploring the interaction of Professional ethics, the ANO and new FTL laws that might force a pilot to make a decision that could be less safe. We will be running a members poll on our website next week asking if members support this approach.
Level 3 - Industrial
* Following on from the previous point we will be writing to your CEO outlining our concerns and highlighting the potential for disruption.
You could help in the industrial context by writing and asking your CEO for a statement on where they stand on the use of science in designing sub-part Q.
Level 4 - Public attitudes
* We are using MORI this weekend to ask the public who they trust to write these regulations.
* We will be briefing the press regularly, both in the UK and in Europe.
* We are writing to all interested consumer groups.
* We may be running a major Lobby of the Council meeting in Luxembourg on 10th June, further details will be sent to those members who volunteered last year.
We will know by 4th June if our argument is getting home and whether the issue will appear on the council agenda in Luxembourg. But our experience since the issue first arose over a decade ago, and of the Fully Awake campaign which successfully ran in January, is that the argument is never really won; they will keep coming back. And BALPA will continue to resist anything that is not based on science.
Hope you are all able to help (get a thread going on your forum, it is a great source of ideas; and wit!) And if you want to make suggestions please don't hold back.
Jim McAuslan, General Secretary
www.balpa.org
For those who wll be future passengers do you really want the folks at the front driving you at the ground to be knackered
Below some of the latest from Balpa.
For those pilots/potential pilots within europe not in a union the text it is worth some thought as it will also affect your future lifestyle.
There is a very real danger that a European Council of Ministers meeting on 10th/11th June could adopt new FTLs. The proposed Sub Part Q would, for instance, introduce a basic FDP limit for 2 pilots of 13 hours with an extra hour on top with "operator's discretion", minimum rest periods calculated on previous FDP - NOT duty - and insufficient reduction in FDP for multi sector days.
Together with our colleagues in ECA we are pressing
* To ensure the Council of Ministers does not endorse the current proposals.
* To build political and public support for a European FTL scheme designed using scientific evidence.
In support of our case we are arguing that:
* Science is not being allowed to express a view.
* Professional pilots are concerned for the safety of the travelling public
* We want a European scheme based on science, not political compromise.
* The current proposals
o would increase the probability of accidents (see attached chart from a recent FAA report on probability of accident v flight time)
o lead to working arrangements that affect the body more than the drink/driving level
o are at odds with what the law is now saying
o are less humane than the directive for the transport of animals! (see Directive attached)
We have agreed within ECA a campaign that will operate in each country and at European level. It has 4 levels:
Level 1 - Political.
* Members are already writing to their MP and Alistair Darling - the UK Minister who would attend the Council meeting. Examples of 2 of these are attached. We would ask all CCs to encourage members to follow this lead. Templates are not being supplied - in your own words works best; in person is a killer!
* We have written to prospective MEPs (copy attached) seeking their support both now, and in case the matter is agreed by the Council and goes back to the European Parliament. MEPs might be susceptible to an approach now (see website)
* In addition to writing to our Minister later next week, we will be lobbying the Commission and submitting scientific evidence that challenges their draft regulation. We will be quoting Article 95(3) of the Treaty that says laws must be written using available science. We will follow this up in both Houses of our own Parliament and seeking a review.
Level 2 - Legal
* We are exploring whether there is now European case law on how standby is counted.
* As with the Police Sky Marshall debate, we are exploring the interaction of Professional ethics, the ANO and new FTL laws that might force a pilot to make a decision that could be less safe. We will be running a members poll on our website next week asking if members support this approach.
Level 3 - Industrial
* Following on from the previous point we will be writing to your CEO outlining our concerns and highlighting the potential for disruption.
You could help in the industrial context by writing and asking your CEO for a statement on where they stand on the use of science in designing sub-part Q.
Level 4 - Public attitudes
* We are using MORI this weekend to ask the public who they trust to write these regulations.
* We will be briefing the press regularly, both in the UK and in Europe.
* We are writing to all interested consumer groups.
* We may be running a major Lobby of the Council meeting in Luxembourg on 10th June, further details will be sent to those members who volunteered last year.
We will know by 4th June if our argument is getting home and whether the issue will appear on the council agenda in Luxembourg. But our experience since the issue first arose over a decade ago, and of the Fully Awake campaign which successfully ran in January, is that the argument is never really won; they will keep coming back. And BALPA will continue to resist anything that is not based on science.
Hope you are all able to help (get a thread going on your forum, it is a great source of ideas; and wit!) And if you want to make suggestions please don't hold back.
Jim McAuslan, General Secretary
www.balpa.org
For those who wll be future passengers do you really want the folks at the front driving you at the ground to be knackered
If you're too tired to fly, then call in sick..
I won't get airbourne if I'm knackered, I owe it to the rest of the crew, PAX and anyone happening to live on the mountain I might otherwise crash into.
I won't get airbourne if I'm knackered, I owe it to the rest of the crew, PAX and anyone happening to live on the mountain I might otherwise crash into.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Abroad
Posts: 520
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I take it you donīt work for Tesco then Fokker1000 ? If you call in "fatigued " you will be challenged with "well, it is within CAP 371...if you canīt fly your contracted hours, perhaps you should try working for someone else?"
Maxy101,
I'm not being flippant, infact I couldn't be more serious.
The reason you give for being unfit to fly is up to you, but if you're knackered then your knackered.
I just hope for my sake [and all others] your not behind me on the motorway on the way home after a long flying day that you started already feeling jaded...
That's got to be the most dangerous time of all?
I'm not being flippant, infact I couldn't be more serious.
The reason you give for being unfit to fly is up to you, but if you're knackered then your knackered.
I just hope for my sake [and all others] your not behind me on the motorway on the way home after a long flying day that you started already feeling jaded...
That's got to be the most dangerous time of all?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Abroad
Posts: 520
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fokker 1000 , but you wouldnīt be sick, you would be fatigued . As I understand it , you are defrauding the company if you call in sick when you are not. However, as you point out, you may call in fatigued , but it is a very serious thing to do. In Big, I understand people have been called into the office, rosters, lifestyles and commuting distances examined with a fine toothcomb. Essentially, when the Ops staff say "should I stick you down as sick rather than Fatigued", it is easier to say Yes" . However, it doesnīt confront the issue. It is same as reporting to work when you are tired. Letīs face it, who isnīt tired when they go to work, whether at 0600 or 2100. We are not machines that can be turned on and off when required.
I Have Control
Join Date: May 2004
Location: North-West England
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Circadian Rhythms
Am I missing something, or do the CAP371 regs ignore the issue of overnight operations with hefty time-zone shifts....combined.?
I am alluding to the notorious 'bullet' patterns, where a crew can operate, say, from London to Mexico City, get 4-5 hours sleep, and return the following local evening, landing back in, say, Manchester with no further sleep. Just a hefty dose of radiation, plus a drastic confusion in the brain and body due to night and day hours being extended and then shortened in quick order.
5 such patterns in 4 weeks has been my lot, with a 6th. planned in week 5. Somewhat whacked, I must admit, given that other flying duties have also been required.(Earlies and the like)
I am alluding to the notorious 'bullet' patterns, where a crew can operate, say, from London to Mexico City, get 4-5 hours sleep, and return the following local evening, landing back in, say, Manchester with no further sleep. Just a hefty dose of radiation, plus a drastic confusion in the brain and body due to night and day hours being extended and then shortened in quick order.
5 such patterns in 4 weeks has been my lot, with a 6th. planned in week 5. Somewhat whacked, I must admit, given that other flying duties have also been required.(Earlies and the like)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Beds
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice piece in the IPA Mag. 'Skypointer' about the CAA, QinetiQ and aircrew fatigue.
Worth a read to learn more of the background on research etc.
The author, in his conclusion writes:
"Whatever one hears in scuttlebutt about the workload in EZY, there is no doubt they are well to they fore in their fatigue prevention planning and are in active co-operation with the Airbus Industrie in the predictive modelling of SAFE and FAID."
Anyone care to comment?
Worth a read to learn more of the background on research etc.
The author, in his conclusion writes:
"Whatever one hears in scuttlebutt about the workload in EZY, there is no doubt they are well to they fore in their fatigue prevention planning and are in active co-operation with the Airbus Industrie in the predictive modelling of SAFE and FAID."
Anyone care to comment?