Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Tired budget jet pilots 'endanger passengers' - The Times

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Tired budget jet pilots 'endanger passengers' - The Times

Old 2nd Jan 2004, 00:34
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: the past
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Italy:2 pilots max: 17hrs duty,13hrs block!
No regard to carcadian rhitm (start of duty) nor to the total no of sectors.The only "day OFF" in any seven is really only 24 hrs and not 00 to 24 LT.
Volare flies to U.K. too.

EU Commision,EU Parliament,ECA,etc.,etc.,.....EU(JAA) Pilots SHAME ON YOU!!!!!(to include myself)

GNY

P.S.: 3 pilots max: 24hrs duty,Want more???
GEENY is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2004, 01:30
  #102 (permalink)  
stilljustanothernumber
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the night sky
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
CHIRP should be considered because the reports will get forwarded to the CAASRG and will be difficult to ignore (CAA will want to cover thier backsides).
unwiseowl is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2004, 03:38
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The Chirp route has been thrown up as a backdoor into the CAA & SRG. Read my previous post about sending your rosters and perceived effect to the CAA medical dept. and ask them to feed them into their 'fatigue' model.
That is a front door route into the SRG.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2004, 04:01
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Timbuktu
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Italy:2 pilots max: 17hrs duty,13hrs block!
No regard to carcadian rhitm (start of duty) nor to the total no of sectors.The only "day OFF" in any seven is really only 24 hrs and not 00 to 24 LT.
Volare flies to U.K. too.

EU Commision,EU Parliament,ECA,etc.,etc.,.....EU(JAA) Pilots SHAME ON YOU!!!!!(to include myself)

GNY

P.S.: 3 pilots max: 24hrs duty,Want more???
The only way things are going to change is if aircraft start falling out of the sky with monotonous regularity for causes traced explicitly back to crew fatigue.

It ain't happening though, is it.
To management that simply translates into proof that they're justified in piling it on. You ain't seen nuthin' yet baby.
maxalt is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2004, 04:15
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Further, you're getting side-tracked on the 6/3 5/3 comparison again.That and working harder on duty days to have more time off.

Again refer to a previous post about the mathematics of annual duty days. Briefly put, assuming 4 sector days and 6 -6.30hrs flying per day, you can only fly 135- 150 days per year. If you want a pattern, that productivity can be achieved in 4 ON 4 OFF.
With efficient rostering it is not necessary to strap an a/c to your backside for more days. What is tiring is going to work to prduce very little. I don't know if it is still the case, but it was not uncommon to report at 05.00, fly 2 sectors for 2.30 hrs and go home having produced 4.30 hours of work. A complete waste of time. Either that or position in taxis or on own a/c to operate 1 or 2 sectors. Spend upto 12 hours on duty to produce 3 - 4 hours flying. Again, a waste of time. Where RYR get it right is maximum flying when on duty. The average day is 9 hours during which they fly (usually) 4 sectors and produce 6 hours in the air. A duty day is not often wasted. It's not a case of fly more and earn more, therefore everybody is happy to work harder; you can not produce more than 900 pa so you know what you income might be. MOL does not like pilots doing less than mid- 800's, so you know what your likely minimum income will be. I hear that many EJ pilots produce mid-700's and are still kanckered. That is a real LOSE LOSE. Company is losing money and crews are losing life.
A max 10 hour day with 14 - 16 days per month will produce the required amount of stick time. If there is an attitude within an airline that crews must be on duty for the max days, and near max hours each day, then there is going to be real problem People don't survive that for very long. That will again cost the company money in repalcements. If my calculations are accepted as correct. i.e. max 150 days flying per year to produce the flying hours, why does ej have a rostering ideal of 235 flying duty days per year per pilot? What do they do with the extra 85 days and yet still only achieve +/- 800 hours per pilot? If each RYR pilot produces 1 month's flying productivity more than ej that tells you something about their relative cost base, and they do it in less duty days per year, as well.
It could still be improved with 4 ON 4 OFF. Don't necessarily aspire to achieve 5/3 just because RYR pilots say it is better than 6/2 or 6/3. It's just the best of a bad lot. It too can be improved.

And in Italy, been there, done that. Doing it on longhaul is the road to an early grave. Hell on earth or rather 35,000'. How they have managed to keep such sweat shop conditions in the EU and 21st century only they can tell you. But please don't the crews in Italy try to distract the argument by pointing out how lucky the UK crews are relative to themselves. That will never be a argument for any topic.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2004, 07:36
  #106 (permalink)  

Grim Sleeper
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unfortunately EZY want their planes in the air 27 hours a day, and the crewing system caters for that business model, not max crew utilisation.

So yes, i have worked like all my colleagues, starting each six-day period, without exception, at or before 6.00am and always finishing around midnight on the 6th day, as per EZY crewing policy, usually clocking up 20-24 sectors in each period in a variety of weather conditions and delay patterns, as we all do. Amazingly, I have only accumulated 600-odd hours in a year.

It's worth mentioning that duties are not fairly distributed among crew members either; you usually find that if you did 28 sectors in 6 days, one of your colleagues had 6 days stby without being called......
Slim20 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2004, 19:04
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: the past
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
There is nothing to stop me from setting up shop in Italy and operate intra U.K.,is there? A flag of convenience principle alive & well in EU.

GNY

P.S.:Forgot to mention EASA before.

There is nothing to stop me from setting up shop in Italy and operate intra U.K.,is there? The flag of convenience principle alive & well in EU.

GNY

P.S.:Forgot to mention EASA before.
GEENY is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2004, 19:26
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
RAT 5, as an outside observer it seems to me, you have made a really valid point.
From what I can gather from EZY its not so much the roster and work pattern as the way in which it is managed. In other words, what ever `system` they dream of next there will be disruption and fatigue.I heard a rumour that there has already been mention of the 5/3 needing the ocassional overrun into 6 in the same way as the 3/6 does to 7!!!??
Perhaps someone closer to the action could comment?
Noax2grind2 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2004, 19:39
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: England
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Chirps and CAA SRG

So from reading this thread the UK CAA SRG will know there is a problem with fatigue in the UK airline industry. So they can all become proactive and do something about it.

The problem is there, you know where to find it. You all need to stop looking the other way.

Please don't tell me to Cat Nap as it is very difficult on a double domestic.

As with all companies the Ts and Cs have changed since we joined.

Mr A from P you don't think a pilot is going to be tired after a 60 hour week. This pilot is and you can not get enough rest to get over it during a normal roster. The only time I feel refreshed is after the first week of annual leave.
Moonraker One is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2004, 21:52
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts


perhaps we should undergo random sleep/rest testing at security !!!

miss d point is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2004, 03:42
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This thread shouldn't be about singleing out a particular airline, it's about not allowing a trend to form within the industry, a standard being formed that is unsafe all for the sake of the bean counters saving money.

The sad thing is as this thread disappears down the page, so does the cause. If crew, & i mean all from ground, cabin, flight etc are having to work to limits that the SRG should be concerned about then forget the company bashing.

That will sort itself out later, meanwhile, CHIRP, email, letter, fax, medical division, Balpa - anything! Stick together guys & girls
aardvark keeper is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2004, 18:58
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I HAVE EMAILED MY AEROMEDICAL EXAMINER ABOUT THIS TODAY. LETS ALL DO THIS RIGHT NOW, SO THEY CAN FORWARD IT TO THE APPROPRIATE DESTINATION AND WE'LL SEE THE REACTION - GO
one four sick is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2004, 19:24
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Me 2

[email protected]

Next!
aardvark keeper is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2004, 21:40
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,507
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Aardvark Keeper & 1 - 4 sick.

Perhaps it is better to find the direct link into the Medical Department at CAA. The boss used to be David Evans. Relying on your AME to forward it might not be successful. However, copying your AME seems a good idea.

I agree, it is not the fault of a single airline; it is a disease within the industry, and needs to be tackled on a national if not EU or even worldwide level. A company defense is always that if a competitor does so must they to stay in the race for bums on seats. I was subjected to that, and the rogue/badly managed airlines still went bust. But start slowly to crack open the door.
Regarding flags of convenience and the use of other EU a/c within UK; I was told that the CAA will consider it correct for any wet leases to operate to the host airlines FTL's. However, once again, there is very little policing of this. I understand BALPA have a committee for this, but its prime task is safeguarding UK jobs rather than doing the CAA's job for it. The CAA are very good at ramp inspections of the a/c paperwork and crew licences, but not at FTL's being used on foreign a/c wet leased by local operators. It would seem they might be in violation of their AOC; certainly their moral obligation to the pax if they subject them to lower standards than they thought they had paid for at the time of booking.

What has been troublesome, and worrying, for 15 years, and you can find letters in THE LOG in the mid- 80's from such outifts as Air 2000 and other charter companies to confirm this, is that the CAA have been told repeatedly that airlines have not rostered to 'The Spirit' of CAP 371. That is the self professed philosphy of the CAA, but even with all the evidence under their noses for years they have stedfastly refused to do anything about it. It was only when 'discretion' was being abused did they intervene.
There were also some excellent letters from pilots' families outlining the stresses caused at home by the averaging rostering policies. Salutray reading.

There is an article in THE LOG in 1998 from Trevor Philips, the rostering guru at BALPA, which quite clearly lays out the CAA guideleines and attitudes.. It also states that the CAA have put in writing it's philosophy of rostering quality time off at home, and daily duties should be within the spirit of the rules. If this is so, then they should be confronted and obliged to police their own policies. The limits are for when the inevitable S@*t happens, and to keep the schedule going. It is not only the UK CAA, but other national authorities, that when confronted with the commercial survival (in the company's words) and the enforcement of their own rules or FTL's, have also sided with the airlines and turned a blind eye allowing the legal limits to be the norms and 'The Spirit' to be ignored. How do they earn respect and demonstrate integrity like that? Look at the reaction of the public towards the regulatory authority of the rail network when they found out how it have been carrying out (or not) its duty. Sadly it took some nasty smashes to open that can or worrms.

(The FAA, post Valujet, divided itself)

Over the past 12 months this must be the 4th or 5th thread on this subject. Often they have started with an outside enquiry. There was one from The Times, now there is one from a university investigation, and there have been other triggers. If nothing happens in the near future, with all this common opinion inside and outside, then it never will. Is this not what a national union is for. This is not to invite a BALPA bashing, because the same is true of VNV and the union in Italy. I suspect the same in all countries; they all take your money and look after only the flag carrier. If you feel the authorities need to be confronted with their obligations, then so do the unions.

Without union backing it would take a large and strong minded core of brave and committed captains to budge the immoveable rock that is management attitude.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2004, 22:35
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
OK then RAT 5 and EVERYONE,

Why don't we ALL send a letter of concern to the Medical Division.
The letter could be formulated here on these very pages by whomever wants to add points to it. This would take say a few days.
Once it is complete, we each send it to the right email address, signed individually as we send it, so it's not a PETITION, but a copy of the same letter.
We will each submit our own contact details for them to reply to and if there were hundreds of these going in, the battle would have started.

I will start to write a few lines and post it here, if anyone wants to add to it, then go right ahead.

one four sick

Dear Medical Division,

The recent thread on PPRUNE ¡§Tired budget jet pilots 'endanger passengers' - The Times¡¨ concerning an article by The Times Newspaper and the subsequent replies from a lot of airline pilots has prompted the creation of this letter.

1. It¡¦s task is to try to tackle the unhappiness and above all real worry that I have about the rostering habits of my and other Low Cost Operators, to the degree that I and others on this website believe that it may take an accident to occur before the CAA and it¡¦s Medical Division are kickstarted into intervening and forcing a change to the current inadequate and downright dangerous regulations on Flight Time Limitations.
2. These outdated regulations are currently allowing airlines to roster people in such a manner that most pilots simply do not get enough time off to rest or to rejuvenate after a number (6) of long days/early starts, technical delays, challenging weather conditions, sometimes 4 times on the same day. Not to mention almost constantly finishing on a late duty 22:30 and starting on an early 06:00 after 2 short days off. These have a CUMULATIVE effect that is clearly not being addressed by the rostering machinery.
3. These facts should be of concern to the Medical and CAA-SRG authorities. They must be addressed to the satisfaction of all concerned.
„h NEXT PERSON CONTINUE HERE






Yours sincerely,

Dear Medical Division,

The recent thread on PPRUNE "Tired budget jet pilots 'endanger passengers' - The Times” concerning an article by The Times Newspaper and the subsequent replies from a lot of airline pilots has prompted the creation of this letter.

1. It's task is to try to tackle the unhappiness and above all real worry that I have about the rostering habits of my and other Low Cost Operators, to the degree that I and others on this website believe that it may take an accident to occur before the CAA and it’s Medical Division are kickstarted into intervening and forcing a change to the current inadequate and downright dangerous regulations on Flight Time Limitations.

2. These outdated regulations are currently allowing airlines to roster people in such a manner that most pilots simply do not get enough time off to rest or to rejuvenate after a number (6) of long days/early starts, technical delays, challenging weather conditions, sometimes 4 times on the same day. Not to mention almost constantly finishing on a late duty 22:30 and starting on an early 06:00 after 2 short days off. These have a CUMULATIVE effect that is clearly not being addressed by the rostering machinery.

3. These facts should be of concern to the Medical and CAA-SRG authorities. They must be addressed to the satisfaction of all concerned.

* NEXT PERSON CONTINUE HERE






Yours sincerely,
one four sick is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2004, 23:24
  #116 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 14,689
Received 13 Likes on 11 Posts
You can all fax your MPs your letters - online and for free - in the blink of an eye at:


http://www.faxyourmp.com


Cheers

WWW
Wee Weasley Welshman is online now  
Old 4th Jan 2004, 00:09
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dear Medical Division,

The recent thread on PPRUNE "Tired budget jet pilots 'endanger passengers' - The Times” concerning an article by The Times Newspaper and the subsequent replies from a lot of airline pilots has prompted the creation of this letter.

1. It's task is to try to tackle the unhappiness and above all real worry that I have about the rostering habits of my and other Low Cost Operators, to the degree that I and others on this website believe that it may take an accident to occur before the CAA and it’s Medical Division are kickstarted into intervening and forcing a change to the current inadequate and downright dangerous regulations on Flight Time Limitations.

2. These outdated regulations are currently allowing airlines to roster people in such a manner that most pilots simply do not get enough time off to rest or to rejuvenate after a number (6) of long days/early starts, technical delays, challenging weather conditions, sometimes 4 times on the same day. Not to mention almost constantly finishing on a late duty 22:30 and starting on an early 06:00 after 2 short days off. These have a CUMULATIVE effect that is clearly not being addressed by the rostering machinery.

3. These facts should be of concern to the Medical and CAA-SRG authorities. They must be addressed to the satisfaction of all concerned.

4. The way we are rostered we need to counterbalance the long days of sitting still with excersise. This is nearly impossible on a run of earlies as one gets home at around 5pm, and gets ready for bed by 9pm for the next long day. The issue of regular meals is also a point to mention. As we don't get crew meals anymore we live on sandwiches and other pre prepared quick meals. Can a new breed of first officers really last for 35 years under these conditions, the question needs asking.

* NEXT PERSON CONTINUE HERE






Yours sincerely,
Mentaleena is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2004, 00:19
  #118 (permalink)  
DouglasDigby
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
WWW, that site says it has technical difficulties,, this one will give names of MPs, emails & faxes.

Mentaleena, have to correct one point at your item 4 - there are crew meals provided on orange aircraft. Now whether or not there's time to eat them (or if the ovens are knackered!), or if the tin-tray "gourmet" items can be called real meals, those are different arguments!
 
Old 4th Jan 2004, 00:39
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sorry about the previous jumbled post on page 8.
I tried to EDIT, but it wouldn't allow me access, thankfully Mentaleena has added a point to it and it's now looking just right.
Nice to have a thread on which we mostly agree for a change.

RAT 5 thanks for your message, I have replied, hope you've got it mate.
one four sick is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2004, 00:45
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
DouglasDigby

Thank you, I know that the oranges are being fed, but WE'RE not and the point had to be made.
Mentaleena is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.