Virgin Pilot held on Drink allegations
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>>He wasn't reinstated because he wasn't sacked!
He resigned.....big dfference.<<
Well, if he suddenly decided that he didn't want to fly for BA any more I guess he certainly had that right. I am still a little puzzled that he would quit to demonstrate that the accusations were totally false. Sounds a little like an urban legend to me...
>>would be good if the test came back negative, would the press look silly, but bet they wouldn't say so, and what of virgin ? bad press - yes, but if he was innocent would they continue his employment ?
Does anyone know if BA offered the oslo crew their jobs back ? - false accusations are costing people their careers'<<
I agree, if the accusations were false, you would think that the union, if it is really a union, would get the jobs back with full back pay and seniority. I've seen it happen several times over the years in the U.S. In some of the U.S. cases the allegations were likely true but the paperwork was mishandled and the cases were overturned in arbitration on technical issues. But as has been explained here, I guess BALPA is to ALPA as Bollywood is to Hollywood.
He resigned.....big dfference.<<
Well, if he suddenly decided that he didn't want to fly for BA any more I guess he certainly had that right. I am still a little puzzled that he would quit to demonstrate that the accusations were totally false. Sounds a little like an urban legend to me...
>>would be good if the test came back negative, would the press look silly, but bet they wouldn't say so, and what of virgin ? bad press - yes, but if he was innocent would they continue his employment ?
Does anyone know if BA offered the oslo crew their jobs back ? - false accusations are costing people their careers'<<
I agree, if the accusations were false, you would think that the union, if it is really a union, would get the jobs back with full back pay and seniority. I've seen it happen several times over the years in the U.S. In some of the U.S. cases the allegations were likely true but the paperwork was mishandled and the cases were overturned in arbitration on technical issues. But as has been explained here, I guess BALPA is to ALPA as Bollywood is to Hollywood.
Last edited by Airbubba; 21st Dec 2003 at 23:13.
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ITN Evening News UK
Well ITN have just tried him and found him guilty. They linked it to the Oslo incident saying that they had both resigned and been dismissed.
If journalists had said these kind of things that they are saying about this Virgin pilot in other cases I am sure that they would be in contempt, and certainly predudice a fair trial. ITN, what happened to innocent until proven guilty??!!
This kind of scare-mungering reporting sickens me. Don't get me wrong, I am all for a zero tollerence alcohol policy, but don't hang the guy until he has had a fair trial (not that that would happen in the UK after this kind of report).
ITN you report was
Tonks
If journalists had said these kind of things that they are saying about this Virgin pilot in other cases I am sure that they would be in contempt, and certainly predudice a fair trial. ITN, what happened to innocent until proven guilty??!!
This kind of scare-mungering reporting sickens me. Don't get me wrong, I am all for a zero tollerence alcohol policy, but don't hang the guy until he has had a fair trial (not that that would happen in the UK after this kind of report).
ITN you report was
Tonks
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Some of the reports here quote a Dulles airport spokeswoman saying the security officials reported the pilot to a Virgin supervisor.
So how did the police get involved?
Did the supervisor call the police?
Would some supervisor have authority to do that without permission from someone in authority in the company?
Or did Virgin call the police?
Looks like it may have been handled badly at the Virgin end.
So how did the police get involved?
Did the supervisor call the police?
Would some supervisor have authority to do that without permission from someone in authority in the company?
Or did Virgin call the police?
Looks like it may have been handled badly at the Virgin end.
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>>Did the supervisor call the police?
Would a supervisor have authority to do that without permission from someone high up in the company?
Or did Virgin call the police?<<
One version from today's Washington Post article:
"...Law enforcement officials said the incident began when someone at the airport smelled alcohol on [redacted]. It was unclear whether a screener noticed the smell or whether it was picked up when [redacted] was near the ticket counter area.
The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority Police Department was contacted and notified Virgin Atlantic. Airline officials boarded the plane and spoke to [redacted] in the cockpit before summoning airport police, who escorted him off, said Tara Hamilton, a spokeswoman for the authority..."
Would a supervisor have authority to do that without permission from someone high up in the company?
Or did Virgin call the police?<<
One version from today's Washington Post article:
"...Law enforcement officials said the incident began when someone at the airport smelled alcohol on [redacted]. It was unclear whether a screener noticed the smell or whether it was picked up when [redacted] was near the ticket counter area.
The Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority Police Department was contacted and notified Virgin Atlantic. Airline officials boarded the plane and spoke to [redacted] in the cockpit before summoning airport police, who escorted him off, said Tara Hamilton, a spokeswoman for the authority..."
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Tonkenna ..et al
Could not agree more. Lead Headline news on TV referred to "Drunken Captain" or maybe it was pilot, (not sure), either way it was the use of the word "drunken" which so incensed me. What imagery does that conjure up in the general populace? I would suggest that such imagery is so far from the truth in this circumstance.
The courts and his Company will decide if and what action is necessary in due course.
In the meantime is there not one person who will join me in turning his/her thoughts to **** and his family for having to undergo such a traumatic ordeal at this time of year. Innocent or not, please find some charity towards all concerned and examine your own consciences. (Couldn't the press find a more fitting foto of the guy? Even the Pope would look a guilty mobster in a US police mug-shot)
Rules for crew are far, far more stringent than for motorists but consider if you were one point above the legal limit having consumed 2 pints of bitter having stopped at your local on the way home, would you accept an accusation that you were drunk ... methinks not. Had there been a minute residue from a few drinks the previous evening (Not at the club on the way home!) to tip a scale, or maybe a mouthwash following p.m.rest and shower,....whatever, its imagery you see in the reporting!
Drunken? ... total bollix!
As others have posted, great sensastionalism when accused but el zippo when proven innocent.
Could not agree more. Lead Headline news on TV referred to "Drunken Captain" or maybe it was pilot, (not sure), either way it was the use of the word "drunken" which so incensed me. What imagery does that conjure up in the general populace? I would suggest that such imagery is so far from the truth in this circumstance.
The courts and his Company will decide if and what action is necessary in due course.
In the meantime is there not one person who will join me in turning his/her thoughts to **** and his family for having to undergo such a traumatic ordeal at this time of year. Innocent or not, please find some charity towards all concerned and examine your own consciences. (Couldn't the press find a more fitting foto of the guy? Even the Pope would look a guilty mobster in a US police mug-shot)
Rules for crew are far, far more stringent than for motorists but consider if you were one point above the legal limit having consumed 2 pints of bitter having stopped at your local on the way home, would you accept an accusation that you were drunk ... methinks not. Had there been a minute residue from a few drinks the previous evening (Not at the club on the way home!) to tip a scale, or maybe a mouthwash following p.m.rest and shower,....whatever, its imagery you see in the reporting!
Drunken? ... total bollix!
As others have posted, great sensastionalism when accused but el zippo when proven innocent.
Last edited by 4PON4PIN; 22nd Dec 2003 at 03:42.
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>>Can someone familiar with the American legal system explain why the pilot is being kept in custody?<<
I'm only a sea lawyer, but it is because he is facing felony charges and has not yet had an arraignment.
I'm only a sea lawyer, but it is because he is facing felony charges and has not yet had an arraignment.
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This guy is not being charged with being drunk. Someone in an earlier post said clearly he's been changed with 'operating an aircraft under the influence of alcohol'. Not the same thing at all.
The mouthwash excuse is I'm afraid so much rubbish, been tried under Road Traffic law in the UK, failed. There would be no effect from mouth wash on an evidencial breath test machine 20 minutes after you had used the mouth wash (thats why you are asked in the UK by Police if you have used mouthwash and are required to take a breath test)
Other excuses used which failed are exessive eating of pickled onions and use of ciggaretts.
I assume the US system of Justice is much the same as the UK, in that before charging someone you need to have sufficent evidence to support that charge. In the UK, that would mean you had would have provided a specimin of breath on a calibrated evidenial breath test machine at a Police station. This would then produce a print out of the blood alcohol concentration, which is then the evidence used in court.
I agree there seems to be a problem with the press making a distinction between being drunk (assuming this guy was not) and having more alcohol in his blood than whatever the US use as a prescribed limit. However the fact he wasn't drunk is not the issue.
By the way 4PON4PIN, I wouldn't try 2 pints on the way home, as you may well find you are substantialy more over the limit than you think. The Home Office advice is 2.5 units of alcohol will put you over the drink drive limit, thats 2.5 half pints!
The mouthwash excuse is I'm afraid so much rubbish, been tried under Road Traffic law in the UK, failed. There would be no effect from mouth wash on an evidencial breath test machine 20 minutes after you had used the mouth wash (thats why you are asked in the UK by Police if you have used mouthwash and are required to take a breath test)
Other excuses used which failed are exessive eating of pickled onions and use of ciggaretts.
I assume the US system of Justice is much the same as the UK, in that before charging someone you need to have sufficent evidence to support that charge. In the UK, that would mean you had would have provided a specimin of breath on a calibrated evidenial breath test machine at a Police station. This would then produce a print out of the blood alcohol concentration, which is then the evidence used in court.
I agree there seems to be a problem with the press making a distinction between being drunk (assuming this guy was not) and having more alcohol in his blood than whatever the US use as a prescribed limit. However the fact he wasn't drunk is not the issue.
By the way 4PON4PIN, I wouldn't try 2 pints on the way home, as you may well find you are substantialy more over the limit than you think. The Home Office advice is 2.5 units of alcohol will put you over the drink drive limit, thats 2.5 half pints!
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BJCC /Paulo
No argument. Only trying to draw a comparison between 2 mins after a drink and 8hrs plus after a drink.
btw lowest vol beer with 1/3rd lemonade (dependant on size/metabolism/time/food etc,) should keep you within legal limits).
My post was not an endorsement to drink & drive, in fact I would not be averse to lower limits, but merely to
1.
raise the question if people would consider themselves "drunk"(tabloid) after consuming 2 pints. (am not talking about high vol stuff... 1/2 pint of that and i'm asleep anyway and missed the party!)
& Primarily
2. Think of the sensitivities of the family & friends of this guy at this time of year before posting condemnational judgements before the guy has had his day in court.
No argument. Only trying to draw a comparison between 2 mins after a drink and 8hrs plus after a drink.
btw lowest vol beer with 1/3rd lemonade (dependant on size/metabolism/time/food etc,) should keep you within legal limits).
My post was not an endorsement to drink & drive, in fact I would not be averse to lower limits, but merely to
1.
raise the question if people would consider themselves "drunk"(tabloid) after consuming 2 pints. (am not talking about high vol stuff... 1/2 pint of that and i'm asleep anyway and missed the party!)
& Primarily
2. Think of the sensitivities of the family & friends of this guy at this time of year before posting condemnational judgements before the guy has had his day in court.
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It seems that there is a common denominator becoming evident in these recent incidents. Ground staff 'smelling alcohol' on the breath of pilots, jumping to a conclusion, and pilots being wrongly accused of being drunk (zero blood alcohol now reported in the two most recent events).
I'm not being facetious when I say this, but perhaps a handful of TicTacs on the crew bus might have saved some careers.
Not excusing drinking before flying mind you, not at all, but since a mere allegation now seems sufficient to bring down swift and final judgement....I'll be carrying my Polo Mints in future...just in case.
I'm not being facetious when I say this, but perhaps a handful of TicTacs on the crew bus might have saved some careers.
Not excusing drinking before flying mind you, not at all, but since a mere allegation now seems sufficient to bring down swift and final judgement....I'll be carrying my Polo Mints in future...just in case.
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Paulo...Ops...maths was never my strong point..I stand corrected!
Idunno
What exactly do you want people who smell alcohol on a pilots breath to do? Ignore it because they are flight deck crew? The accusation is easily made, and sometimes made for non too pure motives... However its easy to refute, just one continuous breath of between 10 and 30 seconds into an approved machine, game over...if no drink has been consumed no harm done... if he has been drinking ... Well only one person to take the blame. I really can't see why you are blaming the guy from security?????
Idunno
What exactly do you want people who smell alcohol on a pilots breath to do? Ignore it because they are flight deck crew? The accusation is easily made, and sometimes made for non too pure motives... However its easy to refute, just one continuous breath of between 10 and 30 seconds into an approved machine, game over...if no drink has been consumed no harm done... if he has been drinking ... Well only one person to take the blame. I really can't see why you are blaming the guy from security?????
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Idunno
So what are you doing? - either the guy was drinking and over the limit or he was not. Its not rocket science.
If the ground staff suspect that a member of the flight crew is pissed what do you expect them to do? - the police/judiciary are the correct people to decide on this particular matter - if they are trusted to decide on whether you are drunk in charge of a car, why not an aircraft?
Ground staff 'smelling alcohol' on the breath of pilots, jumping to a conclusion
I'm not being facetious when I say this, but perhaps a handful of TicTacs on the crew bus might have saved some careers.
Not excusing drinking before flying mind you
I'm not being facetious when I say this, but perhaps a handful of TicTacs on the crew bus might have saved some careers.
Not excusing drinking before flying mind you
If the ground staff suspect that a member of the flight crew is pissed what do you expect them to do? - the police/judiciary are the correct people to decide on this particular matter - if they are trusted to decide on whether you are drunk in charge of a car, why not an aircraft?
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If an incident occurs in Germany, however minor involving an aircraft, the pilots are automatically subjected to a breathalyser test. I have been witness to the police breathalysing a crew. The captain involved had consumed a whisky minature in his hotel room and was taken aback when the German police arrived later in the day at the hotel and demanded that he provided a breath test. The test of course proved positive, but fortunately he had a witness to confirm that he had had the drink in his room and no further action was taken and thankfully the press didn't get to hear about it or it would have been another case of "A drunken pilot"
'nough said
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You know the accident in Linate a couple of years ago was partly attributed (*) to the controller not questioning the responses of the pilot of the GA aircraft which crossed the runway at the wrong point.
Similarly, if a security person failed to react to suspicious circumstances such as those reported in this case and an accident happened you'd all be up in arms against him/her.
Ditto if he/she had failed to report a drunken passenger that went on to commit air rage.
You can't judge (as many of you are) the case in question unless you are directly involved in it, neither should you be speculating as to the causes, circumstances or final outcome, if anything to let the legal aspect take their course.
In short, as the saying goes you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
(*) Allegedly, the case is probably still being investigated.
Similarly, if a security person failed to react to suspicious circumstances such as those reported in this case and an accident happened you'd all be up in arms against him/her.
Ditto if he/she had failed to report a drunken passenger that went on to commit air rage.
You can't judge (as many of you are) the case in question unless you are directly involved in it, neither should you be speculating as to the causes, circumstances or final outcome, if anything to let the legal aspect take their course.
In short, as the saying goes you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
(*) Allegedly, the case is probably still being investigated.
Bluey
is 2.5 units of alcohol will put you over the drink drive limit, thats 2.5 half pints!
bjcc, minor correction: 2.5 'units' is 1.25 pints
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My dear PPRuners
let me to make some conclusions or rather analises from everything I read from these 6(six!!!!) pages!!!Oh,my,oh my
what had happened to ,in my opinion,most atractive human activity in which I had been participating for 43 years!!!Of that 33 years as profi or 25 Years as Capt.Now,after all what I read,I am very hapy to be retired!!What kind of aviation is this,a?
Firstly : NO SMOKING!No more Davidoff Magnum ,now they are introducing .45 Magnum all together with steelreinforced doors!
Sec:No more fiddling with STW-Sexual harasment accusation are very serious!Specially if your wife heard about it!
Thrd:No MORE drinking!Not even a miniatures in hotel room!So,next step is - empty room minibar with mousetrap in or even worst CREW IN A ROW IN FRONT OF SECURITY STAFF,WITH JARS FULL OF URINE FOR MORNING ALCO TEST(Sorry for rude language!)
Forth:I do not dear to say this - but now I have to gaveup some of old habits because of present of different gender in cockpit.Even COCKPIT has to change name because "cockpit is small place in wich COCKS fights!"
Sorry,my intentions are not to insult oposite gender in FLIGHT DECK or throw around some MALE PILOT CHAUVINISTIC RUBISH!
When I did started my carier as F/O the first my instructor told me ,after I refused to "chears with W..",was:"If you could drink and fly GAVE UP FLYING!"
Of corse this is joke but do not forget- EVERY JOKE IS HALF THRUTH!
Yours faithfully
Taras!Soorry if any mistakes,you knoww...AGES MY DEAR PPRUNERS!
let me to make some conclusions or rather analises from everything I read from these 6(six!!!!) pages!!!Oh,my,oh my
what had happened to ,in my opinion,most atractive human activity in which I had been participating for 43 years!!!Of that 33 years as profi or 25 Years as Capt.Now,after all what I read,I am very hapy to be retired!!What kind of aviation is this,a?
Firstly : NO SMOKING!No more Davidoff Magnum ,now they are introducing .45 Magnum all together with steelreinforced doors!
Sec:No more fiddling with STW-Sexual harasment accusation are very serious!Specially if your wife heard about it!
Thrd:No MORE drinking!Not even a miniatures in hotel room!So,next step is - empty room minibar with mousetrap in or even worst CREW IN A ROW IN FRONT OF SECURITY STAFF,WITH JARS FULL OF URINE FOR MORNING ALCO TEST(Sorry for rude language!)
Forth:I do not dear to say this - but now I have to gaveup some of old habits because of present of different gender in cockpit.Even COCKPIT has to change name because "cockpit is small place in wich COCKS fights!"
Sorry,my intentions are not to insult oposite gender in FLIGHT DECK or throw around some MALE PILOT CHAUVINISTIC RUBISH!
When I did started my carier as F/O the first my instructor told me ,after I refused to "chears with W..",was:"If you could drink and fly GAVE UP FLYING!"
Of corse this is joke but do not forget- EVERY JOKE IS HALF THRUTH!
Yours faithfully
Taras!Soorry if any mistakes,you knoww...AGES MY DEAR PPRUNERS!
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Baffles me why all pilots don't just turn tea-total.
No risk of misjudging intake. End of problem.
You'd think that alchohol was an essential component in sustaining human life, the way folks carry on.
*Ducks below parapet, based upon previous experience of the reaction to come*
No risk of misjudging intake. End of problem.
You'd think that alchohol was an essential component in sustaining human life, the way folks carry on.
*Ducks below parapet, based upon previous experience of the reaction to come*
I am a figment of my own imagination
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... as a veritable hail of empties comes his way.
As has been noted by the gallary the culture has changed, our life has become more complex, faster and very much more crowded. Our indulgences in former times are no longer acceptable and are being rigorously scrutinised and legislated. Anybody who does not cast a fleeting thought towards these matters as he raises his particular beverage to his lips is guilty of a failure of judgement, and that in our profession is sternly if not always fately dealt with.
Tea? Certainly sir, Darjeeling or Long Island?
As has been noted by the gallary the culture has changed, our life has become more complex, faster and very much more crowded. Our indulgences in former times are no longer acceptable and are being rigorously scrutinised and legislated. Anybody who does not cast a fleeting thought towards these matters as he raises his particular beverage to his lips is guilty of a failure of judgement, and that in our profession is sternly if not always fately dealt with.
Tea? Certainly sir, Darjeeling or Long Island?