747 Crash @ Lagos
<<BTW, the 742 is a hard one to touch and hold level on finals in non standard conditions. Can often depend on the gyration swing and all else.>> 
Never a good idea to line up departing traffic with an emergency on finals.
Never a good idea to line up departing traffic with an emergency on finals.
Controversial, moi?
Iff the learjet was 2 miles out than there was no danger at all (hello !). Its common practice to get departing traffic while aircraft on 1 mile final.
Impossible.
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Topman, you have been standing in the sun without a hat for too many years.
Could you not actually understand what I had written?
Cease to pontificate B. S!
Please can anyone provide more accurate information on this disastrous Nigerian situation.
Could you not actually understand what I had written?
Cease to pontificate B. S!
Please can anyone provide more accurate information on this disastrous Nigerian situation.
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alexb757 - You're quite right about security at Lagos, my experences include:
a/ arriving at the gate, one time, about 2 hours after the advertised departure time, due to a delay caused by aircraft serviceability, for an 11 hour flight. We found the entire load of passengers had boarded themselves, and were settled down aboard, with the kids running everywhere, waiting and shouting out to us that we should go now!
We had to offload the entire passenger cabin, do a really good security check, get the cabin reorganized, and reboard, which meant an extra delay on the delay!
b/ each and every bus trip to and from the airport to the hotel, about 20 minutes each way, had to be escorted by armed guards.They had loaded automatic weapons in each car, one in front and one behind, and would not stop for any traffic holdups.
Anytime there was a traffic blockage on the 'road' the front car would simply drive up between the lanes and bang on the side of the cars blocking the road, with the butts of the weapons - that usually got them moving out of the way! Not a pleasant way to travel to/from work.
I was there with AAI for several months, the best part was the layovers in NewYork, London and Dubai, otherwise I could not have lasted even that long.
Cheers
a/ arriving at the gate, one time, about 2 hours after the advertised departure time, due to a delay caused by aircraft serviceability, for an 11 hour flight. We found the entire load of passengers had boarded themselves, and were settled down aboard, with the kids running everywhere, waiting and shouting out to us that we should go now!
We had to offload the entire passenger cabin, do a really good security check, get the cabin reorganized, and reboard, which meant an extra delay on the delay!
b/ each and every bus trip to and from the airport to the hotel, about 20 minutes each way, had to be escorted by armed guards.They had loaded automatic weapons in each car, one in front and one behind, and would not stop for any traffic holdups.
Anytime there was a traffic blockage on the 'road' the front car would simply drive up between the lanes and bang on the side of the cars blocking the road, with the butts of the weapons - that usually got them moving out of the way! Not a pleasant way to travel to/from work.
I was there with AAI for several months, the best part was the layovers in NewYork, London and Dubai, otherwise I could not have lasted even that long.
Cheers
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And this is, how it looks like now :
Hm, the line is ´IMG]http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/zs-oos/1.jpg[/IMG´, don´t know why it shows an Jetphoto.net banner ? The Preview worked well yesterday. Sorry
Hm, the line is ´IMG]http://www.airdisaster.com/photos/zs-oos/1.jpg[/IMG´, don´t know why it shows an Jetphoto.net banner ? The Preview worked well yesterday. Sorry
Last edited by Volume; 5th Dec 2003 at 13:48.
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Tony em, I want some of what you are smoking!
I guessed that was an attempt to link to that photo on AirDisaster.com and saw it this morning. Both wings look attached to me, well, at least at the roots.
Edit; can't believe that word was censored
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Nigerian airport botch-up costs SA cargo carrier millions
Aviation - By Roger Makings
Incompetence at a Nigerian airport will cost a South African cargo carrier millions of dollars in lost business over the peak Christmas season.
Pretoria-based Hydro Air Cargo's only Boeing 747 was wrecked last week at a Lagos Airport when it ran into a shallow trench on a runway that was being repaired.
Captain Vere Webb, Hydro Air's chief of flight operations, said this week that the Boeing had been cleared to land at Lagos's Murtala Muhammed Airport in the early hours of last Saturday morning.
The Hydro Air pilot twice told the air traffic controller that according to his notes the runway onto which he had been directed to land was under reconstruction. The controller denied this.
The runway appeared to be functioning normally. Its lights were on, navigation aids were working and there were no markings to indicate that it was unserviceable. However, shortly after touchdown the jumbo ran at high speed onto the unsurfaced section of runway, ripping out the left side
undercarriage and severely damaging a wing and two engines of the multimillion-dollar jet.
Reports said the air traffic controller ran away, but was arrested the next morning.
"That, of course, does not solve our problem," said Webb this week. "The jumbo was our only aircraft and we are in the middle of the peak season."
He said it was not clear if assessors would write off the 747 or deem it worth fixing. "Whichever way they go, it's going to take a couple of months, so we are trying frantically to source aircraft to meet our commitments to customers."
Hydro Air Cargo's chief executive, Frik Knoetze, said this week the accident was a severe blow to the company.
"We are looking to lease aircraft and crews that are going to cost far more than what it costs to run our own jumbo. "But, more importantly, we need to protect our markets. Other carriers will
be happy to take our business away from us."
Knoetze said Hydro, with a turnover of more than $30-million a year, flew almost a million kilograms of mainly perishables and dry goods to Europe from South Africa every month. Out of Europe it transported 1.1-million kilograms of freight to Nigeria, Spain and South Africa.
"We are operating in a highly competitive market, and in peak season aircraft and crews are not easy to come by. We are the only South African-based cargo carrier competing in Europe and you can bet the opposition are more than ready to move in on our markets. This will have a major effect on our business."
Aviation - By Roger Makings
Incompetence at a Nigerian airport will cost a South African cargo carrier millions of dollars in lost business over the peak Christmas season.
Pretoria-based Hydro Air Cargo's only Boeing 747 was wrecked last week at a Lagos Airport when it ran into a shallow trench on a runway that was being repaired.
Captain Vere Webb, Hydro Air's chief of flight operations, said this week that the Boeing had been cleared to land at Lagos's Murtala Muhammed Airport in the early hours of last Saturday morning.
The Hydro Air pilot twice told the air traffic controller that according to his notes the runway onto which he had been directed to land was under reconstruction. The controller denied this.
The runway appeared to be functioning normally. Its lights were on, navigation aids were working and there were no markings to indicate that it was unserviceable. However, shortly after touchdown the jumbo ran at high speed onto the unsurfaced section of runway, ripping out the left side
undercarriage and severely damaging a wing and two engines of the multimillion-dollar jet.
Reports said the air traffic controller ran away, but was arrested the next morning.
"That, of course, does not solve our problem," said Webb this week. "The jumbo was our only aircraft and we are in the middle of the peak season."
He said it was not clear if assessors would write off the 747 or deem it worth fixing. "Whichever way they go, it's going to take a couple of months, so we are trying frantically to source aircraft to meet our commitments to customers."
Hydro Air Cargo's chief executive, Frik Knoetze, said this week the accident was a severe blow to the company.
"We are looking to lease aircraft and crews that are going to cost far more than what it costs to run our own jumbo. "But, more importantly, we need to protect our markets. Other carriers will
be happy to take our business away from us."
Knoetze said Hydro, with a turnover of more than $30-million a year, flew almost a million kilograms of mainly perishables and dry goods to Europe from South Africa every month. Out of Europe it transported 1.1-million kilograms of freight to Nigeria, Spain and South Africa.
"We are operating in a highly competitive market, and in peak season aircraft and crews are not easy to come by. We are the only South African-based cargo carrier competing in Europe and you can bet the opposition are more than ready to move in on our markets. This will have a major effect on our business."
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with "ATC and Crew" conversation recordings being available I presume financial responsibility can be quickly established, allowing a replacement aircraft to be sourced at no cost penalty to the company??? but just how easy would it be to get a replacement Aircraft? .......
With ref to departing taffic infront of emerg traffic Although it was probably done cause the RWY would have been blocked by the Lear and the ATC didn't want to hassle with taking the B737 on a taxi tour but still this is something I would not have done personally. ACFT on final with emerg don't want to cause more trouble to them
There was a picture in the Buisiness section of the SA Sunday Times Yesterday.
pic
There was a picture in the Buisiness section of the SA Sunday Times Yesterday.
pic
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As someone who works at a busy twin runway airfield somewhere to the west of London, I would like to point out that lining a 732 up with an aircraft at 2 miles on an engine out is quite definitely career suicide!! 
I don't think any of us that value our jobs and other peoples lives would do something so stupid..... even with both aircraft operating normally. I refer you to the BMA Airbus and the BA 744 a few years ago if you want evidence of how tight 2 miles is!!
I don't think any of us that value our jobs and other peoples lives would do something so stupid..... even with both aircraft operating normally. I refer you to the BMA Airbus and the BA 744 a few years ago if you want evidence of how tight 2 miles is!!
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"I don't think any of us that value our jobs and other peoples lives would do something so stupid..... even with both aircraft operating normally"
Am I the only one who regularly sees and indeed is granted permission to line up and expect immediate rolling departure with aircraft on 1 or 2 miles final ?? This is a very common practice folks.
Am I the only one who regularly sees and indeed is granted permission to line up and expect immediate rolling departure with aircraft on 1 or 2 miles final ?? This is a very common practice folks.
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topman do they do that on the moon, where you're from?
kano, abuja, PH, yola etc will make you wait if they've got a *turbine* aircraft on am 8 mile final, they're that sharp
lagos is different, they will only hand you over to tower when you are established on the glide and often you can't get a word in on the frequency because the tower freq is also the ground and the delivery freq, too. so you can get right down to 2 miles in IMC and only then manage to make contact with a tower controller who has just lined something up in front of you....this after doing the dance with all the other arriving and departing aircraft in and thru the hold at LAG.
and the most important thing then?
"report souls on board"
but its not normal procedure to knowingly line up something with something else at 1 mile...
30 seconds out?
kano, abuja, PH, yola etc will make you wait if they've got a *turbine* aircraft on am 8 mile final, they're that sharp
lagos is different, they will only hand you over to tower when you are established on the glide and often you can't get a word in on the frequency because the tower freq is also the ground and the delivery freq, too. so you can get right down to 2 miles in IMC and only then manage to make contact with a tower controller who has just lined something up in front of you....this after doing the dance with all the other arriving and departing aircraft in and thru the hold at LAG.
and the most important thing then?
"report souls on board"
but its not normal procedure to knowingly line up something with something else at 1 mile...
30 seconds out?
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Saw the hectic line up a few weeks ago at MAN ... clearance given to a 74 to line up with a 73 on about 2 miles final with a previously landing turboprop still to vacate.
I was lucky to bet on the go-around (which was inevitable really)...
I was lucky to bet on the go-around (which was inevitable really)...
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Topman, you are good value.
You have raised your head above the parapet again only to have it shot off.
Where is this place that you speak of The moon and beyond.... sounds interesting.
You have raised your head above the parapet again only to have it shot off.
Where is this place that you speak of
The moon and beyond.... sounds interesting.
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Thanks Dogma ! I aim to please. Where/what/who is "man" ? Manchester ??? Who knows. Anyway, the funny thing is I probably have 10 times the experience you have. Keep taking the tablets 