BA crew test positive for alcohol (Sentences)
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Jet 11
Yes that is exactly what I am proposing, as it saves the airlines name getting in the press and prevents the aircraft from getting airbourne with what might be a some what unsafe crew.
Now if the crew fail to listen to your advice, then perhaps the manager involved would have to take more serious actions which could in the end mean calling in the police, but surely this should be the last action and not what appeared to be, the first.
No airline that I know of considers crew turning up for duty, somewhat unfit for that duty, lightly and believe me crew reported for doing so would rapidly have to answer for their actions within the airline it self, wnd this could result in dissmissal
As somebody has already said there are an awful lot of saints here, who would crucify somebody for the slightest breakage of rules. Buzz Boy I entirely agree with your post
Yes that is exactly what I am proposing, as it saves the airlines name getting in the press and prevents the aircraft from getting airbourne with what might be a some what unsafe crew.
Now if the crew fail to listen to your advice, then perhaps the manager involved would have to take more serious actions which could in the end mean calling in the police, but surely this should be the last action and not what appeared to be, the first.
No airline that I know of considers crew turning up for duty, somewhat unfit for that duty, lightly and believe me crew reported for doing so would rapidly have to answer for their actions within the airline it self, wnd this could result in dissmissal
As somebody has already said there are an awful lot of saints here, who would crucify somebody for the slightest breakage of rules. Buzz Boy I entirely agree with your post
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I see the usual bunch of the self righteous telling us all what we should do from petrol pump attendants to ppl’s (place in what ever order you consider most fitting) As pointed out a number of times, in the absence of the facts, give the guys a rest. Most of us take the odd glass of wine with dinner, perhaps even a pre dinner sherry. It’s quite normal and in most cases reasonable. Unless of course a trace of alcohol remains the next day and you are in the land of the zero tolerant! Suddenly you are a criminal, in clink, job probably gone, and future in doubt for merely living in your usual reasonable manner. Think about it. For sure, the level of fatigue we work with all the time is a damn site more dangerous than the odd trace.
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missive,
I assume from the tenor of your post that you are a commercial pilot.
Quote:
“For sure, the level of fatigue “we” work with all the time is a damn site (sic) more dangerous than the odd trace.”
Well I’m not a pilot, and nor am I “self righteous” so you’ll have to excuse me having the temerity to post here on this forum.
Pilots are not the only ones having to abide by regulations, many people in all walks of life these days have to do so. In the Transport business Tube/Bus/Train drivers all are subject to the law with regard to alcohol for instance. As an aircraft engineer (or should I have said “petrol pump attendant”) I was also subject to the restrictions laid out in ANO/JAR66.50.
Would you be happy to fly an aircraft serviced by an engineer who had ignored those restrictions? Not drunk perhaps, but not quite at peak efficiency because of alcohol.
Quote:
“ Most of us take the odd glass of wine with dinner, perhaps even a pre dinner sherry. It’s quite normal and in most cases reasonable. Unless of course a trace of alcohol remains the next day and you are in the land of the zero tolerant! Suddenly you are a criminal, in clink, job probably gone, and future in doubt for merely living in your usual reasonable manner”
How can you have it any other way? I’m afraid it can’t be left up to the individual to decide if he/she is fit to carry out their duty. Pilots are human beings with exactly the same faults as the rest of us, and we’ve all read of those pilots who have been caught breaking the law. (Regarding alcohol)
I am NOT commenting on the aircrew that this thread is about, I don’t know the facts.
I assume from the tenor of your post that you are a commercial pilot.
Quote:
“For sure, the level of fatigue “we” work with all the time is a damn site (sic) more dangerous than the odd trace.”
Well I’m not a pilot, and nor am I “self righteous” so you’ll have to excuse me having the temerity to post here on this forum.
Pilots are not the only ones having to abide by regulations, many people in all walks of life these days have to do so. In the Transport business Tube/Bus/Train drivers all are subject to the law with regard to alcohol for instance. As an aircraft engineer (or should I have said “petrol pump attendant”) I was also subject to the restrictions laid out in ANO/JAR66.50.
Would you be happy to fly an aircraft serviced by an engineer who had ignored those restrictions? Not drunk perhaps, but not quite at peak efficiency because of alcohol.
Quote:
“ Most of us take the odd glass of wine with dinner, perhaps even a pre dinner sherry. It’s quite normal and in most cases reasonable. Unless of course a trace of alcohol remains the next day and you are in the land of the zero tolerant! Suddenly you are a criminal, in clink, job probably gone, and future in doubt for merely living in your usual reasonable manner”
How can you have it any other way? I’m afraid it can’t be left up to the individual to decide if he/she is fit to carry out their duty. Pilots are human beings with exactly the same faults as the rest of us, and we’ve all read of those pilots who have been caught breaking the law. (Regarding alcohol)
I am NOT commenting on the aircrew that this thread is about, I don’t know the facts.
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Well 4-2 missive raises a valuable point.its scientifically proven that a pilot landing after a long night duty has the same level of performance degredation as having consumed between 2 and 3 pints of beer.Funny old thing the authorities don,t seem in the least bit concerned about addressing that issue and I guess you won,t be either as the price of your flights would have to go up.As for aircraft engineers your totally wrong the new Transport and Shipping act actually sets a permitted level of blood alcohol at 80mg/ml (the current drink drive limit )4 times higher than the new limit for pilots.controllers why???.A CAA doctor informs me that it will be quite possible for a teetotaller to fail a breathe test for the new limit for pilots given certain types of diets/eating habits.The low limit was set as the lowest level detectable with current technology,trouble is you don,t have to had a drink to achieve that level.Be careful out there guys the CAA are budgeting fot 20 prosecutions a year.The lunatics are running the asylum.
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Stampe,
I've also heard the one about landing an aircraft after a night flight and 2-3 pints of beer. Scientificlly proved?! Can you prove the statement?
I rather suspect it's a rumour and not true. If anyone can show us the reference to such research I think we'd be very interested (and so would the CAA!)
Here you go: Fatigue, Alcohol and Performance Impairment
I've also heard the one about landing an aircraft after a night flight and 2-3 pints of beer. Scientificlly proved?! Can you prove the statement?
I rather suspect it's a rumour and not true. If anyone can show us the reference to such research I think we'd be very interested (and so would the CAA!)
Here you go: Fatigue, Alcohol and Performance Impairment
Last edited by flapsforty; 17th Nov 2003 at 14:29.
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Research carried out and published in Australia I believe.Balpa,s technical section at Lgw. will be able to furnish more information if not I can most probably source the info.I believe its a fact that there have never been any western passenger jets hull losses attributed to crew alcohol consumption.Anyone prove me wrong.!!
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An awful lot of tripe being talked here.
Some say don't judge without the facts. But the facts are known- the crew members were arrested after testing positive for alcohol. If they had not tested positive, they wouldn't have been arrested. So the facts are known- even if the excuses aren't.
Some seem to think that there is some reasonable excuse for having any traces of alcohol in the body (apart from that which occurs naturally), when in a country that has zero tolerance. There isn't. Part of being a professional pilot is having both the judgement, and the discipline, to know when it is inappropriate to drink alcohol. Nobody "needs" alcohol in any measure unless they are ipso facto unfit to fly.
Some say that drinking is part of our culture. Irrelevant. You could just as easily say that drug abuse is part of our culture, or sexual or racial discrimination is part of our culture. They may be, but they are parts of our culture that are not acceptable in this profession.
Some of you need to wake up.
Some of you need to grow up.
Some of you, thank goodness, have the wisdom to understand that alcohol and flying do not mix, in any measure, and that anybody caught has no excuse, and deserves no sympathy- but almost certainly needs psychological help with their behaviour.
When will they ever learn...
Some say don't judge without the facts. But the facts are known- the crew members were arrested after testing positive for alcohol. If they had not tested positive, they wouldn't have been arrested. So the facts are known- even if the excuses aren't.
Some seem to think that there is some reasonable excuse for having any traces of alcohol in the body (apart from that which occurs naturally), when in a country that has zero tolerance. There isn't. Part of being a professional pilot is having both the judgement, and the discipline, to know when it is inappropriate to drink alcohol. Nobody "needs" alcohol in any measure unless they are ipso facto unfit to fly.
Some say that drinking is part of our culture. Irrelevant. You could just as easily say that drug abuse is part of our culture, or sexual or racial discrimination is part of our culture. They may be, but they are parts of our culture that are not acceptable in this profession.
Some of you need to wake up.
Some of you need to grow up.
Some of you, thank goodness, have the wisdom to understand that alcohol and flying do not mix, in any measure, and that anybody caught has no excuse, and deserves no sympathy- but almost certainly needs psychological help with their behaviour.
When will they ever learn...
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Boeing thanks for finding that knew it existed and of course those of us who work long night duties know it to be true!!.This research has been drawn to the attention of the CAA a long time ago, your faith in them is misguided they are not interested in flight safety if cost is involved, they are puppets to the airlines who are their paymasters.MOR no one condones alcohol consumption before flying, my own personal limit is no alcohol within 24 hours of flying and has been for many years.I make no comment on the case that started this thread.The new impossibly low limit puts all of us (including teetotallers) at risk of career trauma from naturally occuring alcohol in the body.There is great potential for miscarriage of justice.Would you feel so smug if you were found to have a alcohol level of say 21mg .per 100ml and hadn,t consumed?.The Transport and Shipping act level of Alcohol is set way to low, 40 or 50 would have been a realistic level and one that would have found support in the industry and profession.This debate requires science not hysteria.
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REALPOLITIK
Not trying to be contentious, or goody-two shoes here, just sticking with facts.
I know in the morning if I have had a drink or two the night before, even a couple of glasses of wine. I KNOW there is a difference in my reaction and thinking time, because I can feel - albeit only very slightly - the difference.
I also know this does not apply to everyone. It wasn't always so, in fact I can remember mess dinners and aviating the next morning in probably highly dubious states - but that was then, and this is now.
The world has changed in the perception of drink driving. Once it was a 'there but for the grace of God etc etc....' but now it is rightly considered a fairly serious anti-social potentially lethal offence. Same therefore with hauling pax around in a like condition. By all means object to Euro law, or British law and campaign to have it changed - but in the meantime be aware of it.
However, the thing that cracks me up the most, being (regrettably I admit) part of BA, is the total apparent lack of CDF.
There have now been almost numerous examples of the Company's attitude to reporting for duty with traces of alcohol present in one's system. It's the dole queue, with the knowledge there will need to be a bloody big pilot shortage before any employer offers one a job again.
This happens regularly. By all means use your CC to try and negotiate a change in the rules - but try and be realistic about your chances, imagine the headlines. "BA relaxes drinking rules for pilots!!!! The world's most drunken airline" - I don't think so!
So, to conclude:
1. You know the rules.
2. Breaking them (or even taking a chance) is taking a huge huge risk with your career.
I just cannot understand why anyone would want to take that risk, regardless of the efficiency of their metabolism and/or flying skills. I suppose one should remember that pilots are just another population grouping, and therefore, just like any other group will have broadly the same percentage of alcoholics and people with substance dependency problems.
[Quick edit - already been asked what CDF stands for......'Common Dog F#ck' otherwise known as Common Sense!
]
I know in the morning if I have had a drink or two the night before, even a couple of glasses of wine. I KNOW there is a difference in my reaction and thinking time, because I can feel - albeit only very slightly - the difference.
I also know this does not apply to everyone. It wasn't always so, in fact I can remember mess dinners and aviating the next morning in probably highly dubious states - but that was then, and this is now.
The world has changed in the perception of drink driving. Once it was a 'there but for the grace of God etc etc....' but now it is rightly considered a fairly serious anti-social potentially lethal offence. Same therefore with hauling pax around in a like condition. By all means object to Euro law, or British law and campaign to have it changed - but in the meantime be aware of it.
However, the thing that cracks me up the most, being (regrettably I admit) part of BA, is the total apparent lack of CDF.
There have now been almost numerous examples of the Company's attitude to reporting for duty with traces of alcohol present in one's system. It's the dole queue, with the knowledge there will need to be a bloody big pilot shortage before any employer offers one a job again.
This happens regularly. By all means use your CC to try and negotiate a change in the rules - but try and be realistic about your chances, imagine the headlines. "BA relaxes drinking rules for pilots!!!! The world's most drunken airline" - I don't think so!
So, to conclude:
1. You know the rules.
2. Breaking them (or even taking a chance) is taking a huge huge risk with your career.
I just cannot understand why anyone would want to take that risk, regardless of the efficiency of their metabolism and/or flying skills. I suppose one should remember that pilots are just another population grouping, and therefore, just like any other group will have broadly the same percentage of alcoholics and people with substance dependency problems.
[Quick edit - already been asked what CDF stands for......'Common Dog F#ck' otherwise known as Common Sense!
]
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A late reply to CH4.
It was not a judgement without facts they have been reported for drinking so i was giving by view of the now frequent reports of this happening. We have all gone out and got p***** but you should be mature enough to think that if heaven forbid you have to react to a TCAS would you be as sharp as normal i think not, so add that to your judgement without using anybody as an example. Enjoy the whisky chaser!!!
It was not a judgement without facts they have been reported for drinking so i was giving by view of the now frequent reports of this happening. We have all gone out and got p***** but you should be mature enough to think that if heaven forbid you have to react to a TCAS would you be as sharp as normal i think not, so add that to your judgement without using anybody as an example. Enjoy the whisky chaser!!!
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This from today's AVFlash. Read it and then think if you can still drink and fly...
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#186090
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#186090
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Read it and then think if you can still drink and fly...
wes_wall, read the original article in "The Sun" and decide again if you think this was a truly scientific test worthy of your comment.
wes_wall, read the original article in "The Sun" and decide again if you think this was a truly scientific test worthy of your comment.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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Surely the time has come for pilots to carry a breathaliser as part of his equipment If you find that you have any trace of alcohol, report "unfit for duty".
The problem at the present time is that we have no proper guidance as to what is an acceptable intake to indicate a zero reading.
Breathalisers are available on the internet at a reasonable price.
The problem at the present time is that we have no proper guidance as to what is an acceptable intake to indicate a zero reading.
Breathalisers are available on the internet at a reasonable price.
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viaEGLL, I don't entirely disagree with your last post, except to assert that you didn't properly read what I said, yet again. You had said before that pilots should be able to refrain from drinking until they are off duty; no-one could disagree with that!
I don't think anyone here, apart from you maybe, has even suspected for one minute that they were drinking whilst on duty! The question here is 'how much' and 'how long' before duty can a crew safely drink, 'in moderation', without being at risk of failing the stringent limits. I've not seen anyone here that has been able to give a satisfactory explanation to that. That's why I said that I thought it was an industry wide problem; everyone needs to know what is or what is not acceptable. Don't you see that? Maybe the solution is to demand that all pilots become teetotal, for fear of them breaking some rather 'obtuse and unexplainable' limits. Ha, then who's going to fly anyone's airplanes?
Final point, the crew may have 'been reported', but that doesn't mean they were guilty. They have even 'failed' the preliminary, on the spot check, yet again that does not mean they are guilty! Until such time as the actual blood test results become available, no one is guilty of 'cock all'! THat is my POINT. If those results find against them, then they will be guilty for sure, the extent of that guilt being entirely dependant on how much they have exceeded the limit, for all the good reasons given.
Does that make sense? It does to me, one who lives on the planet I live one, but I do sometimes wonder if I'm the only one living on my planet, and maybe I'm just maladjusted and a weird thinker?
I don't think anyone here, apart from you maybe, has even suspected for one minute that they were drinking whilst on duty! The question here is 'how much' and 'how long' before duty can a crew safely drink, 'in moderation', without being at risk of failing the stringent limits. I've not seen anyone here that has been able to give a satisfactory explanation to that. That's why I said that I thought it was an industry wide problem; everyone needs to know what is or what is not acceptable. Don't you see that? Maybe the solution is to demand that all pilots become teetotal, for fear of them breaking some rather 'obtuse and unexplainable' limits. Ha, then who's going to fly anyone's airplanes?
Final point, the crew may have 'been reported', but that doesn't mean they were guilty. They have even 'failed' the preliminary, on the spot check, yet again that does not mean they are guilty! Until such time as the actual blood test results become available, no one is guilty of 'cock all'! THat is my POINT. If those results find against them, then they will be guilty for sure, the extent of that guilt being entirely dependant on how much they have exceeded the limit, for all the good reasons given.
Does that make sense? It does to me, one who lives on the planet I live one, but I do sometimes wonder if I'm the only one living on my planet, and maybe I'm just maladjusted and a weird thinker?
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How does all this mostly self-righteous opinion fit into the fact that the UK goverment apparently thinks its more or less ok for its citizens to use cannabis?.
I think there is a complete head in the sand attitude going on--its ok for a drugged crazed idiot to massacre on the A38. but a pilot caught in a zero tolerance regime loses his job (without prejudice to the facts of the current case).
This is a mainly uk problem----we all agree that the rules must be followed-- but how many punters would rather sit behind a pilot on drugs than a pilot with a hangover ?
I think there is a complete head in the sand attitude going on--its ok for a drugged crazed idiot to massacre on the A38. but a pilot caught in a zero tolerance regime loses his job (without prejudice to the facts of the current case).
This is a mainly uk problem----we all agree that the rules must be followed-- but how many punters would rather sit behind a pilot on drugs than a pilot with a hangover ?
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Caslance
I can't speak for Maxprop, but I rather gather he is trying to 'amplify' his point, by comparison, rather than make a case for pilots generally being 'unfit to fly'. He does say 'without prejudice' to the facts being revealed in this case.
I can't speak for Maxprop, but I rather gather he is trying to 'amplify' his point, by comparison, rather than make a case for pilots generally being 'unfit to fly'. He does say 'without prejudice' to the facts being revealed in this case.
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its ok for a drugged crazed idiot to massacre on the A38.