BA crew test positive for alcohol (Sentences)
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Given that:
(a) One of the themes of posters here is that it's impossible to have a nil reading for blood-alcohol; and
(b) We can assume that Norweigan authorities perform alcohol tests frequently and have a zero tolerance level
Why don't we hear about crews getting taken away for being over the (Norway) limit all the time?..
Surely the point is that there are occasions when people are over the limit and while we shouldn't all be quick to condem, we should recognise that sometimes crews don't respect the limits and they do get caught.
IIRC, after the C4 documentary this board was full of "it's all exaggerated nonsense, don't believe a word of it, it's so unfair" type messages; but once all the dust was settled we did find the rules had been breached and that some of the allegations made had been correct...
Like airport security, industry topics like this are as much about perception as they are reality.
(a) One of the themes of posters here is that it's impossible to have a nil reading for blood-alcohol; and
(b) We can assume that Norweigan authorities perform alcohol tests frequently and have a zero tolerance level
Why don't we hear about crews getting taken away for being over the (Norway) limit all the time?..
Surely the point is that there are occasions when people are over the limit and while we shouldn't all be quick to condem, we should recognise that sometimes crews don't respect the limits and they do get caught.
IIRC, after the C4 documentary this board was full of "it's all exaggerated nonsense, don't believe a word of it, it's so unfair" type messages; but once all the dust was settled we did find the rules had been breached and that some of the allegations made had been correct...
Like airport security, industry topics like this are as much about perception as they are reality.
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Many moons ago, a young Lightning pilot was pulled from the last night bash on exercise in Cyprus by the O.O . to ferry an aircraft back to Leuchars at 6am. It was a non-stop flight with five en-route tankerings, he was stopped on the way home and failed the bag.
Don't slag me off, I'm only telling the tale.
Don't slag me off, I'm only telling the tale.
Bad Medicine writes:
<<Alcohol . . . has an even greater effect when an . . non-typical response is required. . . . in emergency conditions, the adverse performance effects . . . most pronounced.>>
Basil executed an informal demo of foregoing in the 60s and, yes, the multi emergency situation provided the clearest indication of performance decrement. i.e: giggling does not put the fire out or restore hydraulics.
p.s: for those of a delicate disposition - and Basil's continued wellbeing - the demo was in a sim.
<<Alcohol . . . has an even greater effect when an . . non-typical response is required. . . . in emergency conditions, the adverse performance effects . . . most pronounced.>>
Basil executed an informal demo of foregoing in the 60s and, yes, the multi emergency situation provided the clearest indication of performance decrement. i.e: giggling does not put the fire out or restore hydraulics.
p.s: for those of a delicate disposition - and Basil's continued wellbeing - the demo was in a sim.
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Sligtly getting away from the subject, but if I was part of this airline management team I would be very interested in talking to the ground staff member who called in the police.
Surely there was another way around this problem such as advising the crew of your worries and perhaps advising them that that it was time for the aircraft to go faulty for a few hours.Now perhaps this was tried and the advice ignored, but by calling the police in straight away can only bring the airline bad publicity.
I always thought that your body took 2 hours to neutralize a unit of alcohol [ 1/2 pint ] so that is some guide but with zero tolerance I would not like to use it if my job was at stake
Surely there was another way around this problem such as advising the crew of your worries and perhaps advising them that that it was time for the aircraft to go faulty for a few hours.Now perhaps this was tried and the advice ignored, but by calling the police in straight away can only bring the airline bad publicity.
I always thought that your body took 2 hours to neutralize a unit of alcohol [ 1/2 pint ] so that is some guide but with zero tolerance I would not like to use it if my job was at stake
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I dont know how any of you can even remotely justify this crews actions, or when flying the line, even consider that drinking according to the limits " provides an adequate safeguard. If the facts as reported are true, then their
flying days should be over, period. Even a temporary exemption to fly a kite would be in order.
flying days should be over, period. Even a temporary exemption to fly a kite would be in order.
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Wes-Wall
I don't see many here justifying anyone's actions. Nobody here knows what their actions were! Until such time as we do, then who can venture an opinion on whether they did right or wrong? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but here again you are the 'classic case' of jumping into a debate with all guns blazing, without first taking time to reflect and think and absorb the information around you. Bad trait for a professional pilot, IMHO!
I don't see many here justifying anyone's actions. Nobody here knows what their actions were! Until such time as we do, then who can venture an opinion on whether they did right or wrong? Maybe they did, maybe they didn't, but here again you are the 'classic case' of jumping into a debate with all guns blazing, without first taking time to reflect and think and absorb the information around you. Bad trait for a professional pilot, IMHO!
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How many times will it take for flight crew to learn a simple lesson save the drinking until your of duty and you then can drink as much as you like.Im not preaching but even i dont drink before duty and thats saying something, even if it was zero tolerance you thought the last case would have made that stick in everybodies mind.Enjoy your pint
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Lots of Priests and judges among us...
The days of breathing 100% O2 for 10 min before starting the engines are over . Those old enough to remember this have learned in the meantime that it is no longer acceptable and will cost your carreer straight away. The glass of wine with the crew meal in AF is long gone.
. Those who choose to play with it today are either too young or fools. Those guys played with the rules, got caught, it is not bad luck, it is plain stupid. Period.
This is not to be reflecting on BA or UK pilots however. Best of the lot I would say..and the tradition of the After Landing Beer ( but one only ) is far more desirable than everyone immediately splitting away on arrival to their room to check their e-mails...
The days of breathing 100% O2 for 10 min before starting the engines are over . Those old enough to remember this have learned in the meantime that it is no longer acceptable and will cost your carreer straight away. The glass of wine with the crew meal in AF is long gone.
. Those who choose to play with it today are either too young or fools. Those guys played with the rules, got caught, it is not bad luck, it is plain stupid. Period.
This is not to be reflecting on BA or UK pilots however. Best of the lot I would say..and the tradition of the After Landing Beer ( but one only ) is far more desirable than everyone immediately splitting away on arrival to their room to check their e-mails...
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The only limit I would adhere to, and be disciplined enough to undertake is no booze. If you all know that short haul are more at risk, then take positive steps to reduce the risk. Ultimately if you have forked out a fortune for your training you should be disciplined enough not end up "splashing" it up against the wall. I am not employed in the airline industry but work in the industry which extracts the "go go juice" that keeps the turbines turning. Random breath tests are carried out. Currently, I have an evening departure to an offshore installation and have to spend a whole day waiting. Even if I had a drink with lunch and I feel O.K. there is the high risk of getting breath tested and getting caught. Now some of you will argue that I would be alright. I am not prepared to undertake that risk. It is hard enough to find another job. IF hangovers are being slept off on the flight deck then privileges are being taken for granted. I am also a PPL and if I am flying the next day I do not drink the night before. You guys make decisions day in day out, I think this one should be one of the easiest, if not then you should not be flying.
If I have passed judgement on the situation I apologise.
If I have passed judgement on the situation I apologise.
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>>Don't forget that in many hotels, various anonymous airline employees (staff) or airline mgmt types can be sitting next to you in the bar-sometimes a few passengers who you just flew in. <<
Yep, it is time to once again review the bitter lessons of the infamous Northwest alcohol incident in Fargo:
Don't drink in your own hotel. Always pay cash. And, above all, never, ever stiff the bartender!
Yep, it is time to once again review the bitter lessons of the infamous Northwest alcohol incident in Fargo:
Don't drink in your own hotel. Always pay cash. And, above all, never, ever stiff the bartender!
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At the moment the crew are being branded as "guilty". As professionals we should not do this. Our first line should be support for these people. If they are found "guilty" then so be it, but I think that the company procedures should be the first to be examined rather than the crew. Years ago I used to travel with my Dad (BOAC days), after landing drinks were a tradition and nights out were, however all the crew menbers always tried to refrain from drinking before departure. I think in todays aviation industry most of us are professional in views towards drinking before duty. In the old days if the pilots were under the influence then that was it, nowadays if the pilots are pissed then there are two auto pilots. (sorry, that's not an excuse). Maybe automation gives the flight crew a get out "well if I'm not OK then then autopilot will be"
Finally, only my opinion, if staff or more so company procedures are lagging behind the drag curve then the rules governing the curve should be addressed first which will sort the staff out. If the rules are then still not being observed then unfortunately the blame will come unto those who are disregarding. After 20 years in the Aviation business plus the 10 years flying with my dad I can that I could guarantee that 99.9% of Aircrew, Engineers or ATCO's have turned up for work with the levels of alchohol in thier blood as the accused BA staff.
Finally, only my opinion, if staff or more so company procedures are lagging behind the drag curve then the rules governing the curve should be addressed first which will sort the staff out. If the rules are then still not being observed then unfortunately the blame will come unto those who are disregarding. After 20 years in the Aviation business plus the 10 years flying with my dad I can that I could guarantee that 99.9% of Aircrew, Engineers or ATCO's have turned up for work with the levels of alchohol in thier blood as the accused BA staff.
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I get the impression here that itīs ok for BA jocks (and others) to drink up untill 8 hours prior to a flight/check in. Is this correct?
Every job I ever had, company rules have said I have to be SOBER 8 hours prior.
Every job I ever had, company rules have said I have to be SOBER 8 hours prior.
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At the heart of this issue is the question of how much of any kind of "normal" lifestyle is left, especially to UK and European shorthaul drivers.
With the kind of 6 on/2 off roster that is increasingly becoming the norm, it is very hard to actually plan to safely have any drink at all. As someone else has said, all the companies are doing is throwing the rulebook at us, without making any attempt to manage the lifestyle problems which this creates.
Moderate consumption of alcohol is part of our culture, it can be a sociable, pleasurable and relaxing experience. I would argue that making it increasingly difficult for crews to enjoy this activity will lead to increased levels of stress and discontent, and feelings of antagonism towards airline management and the legislators and enforcers, which in turn can only have a negative effect on flight safety.
The irony of all this is the drink culture in the cabin - the company directors enjoying their "champagne breakfast" before a day's hard decision making(!?). The amount of alcohol I've seen consumed by men in suits at all sorts of inappropriate times when I've been paxing has always made my jaw drop somewhat......
With the kind of 6 on/2 off roster that is increasingly becoming the norm, it is very hard to actually plan to safely have any drink at all. As someone else has said, all the companies are doing is throwing the rulebook at us, without making any attempt to manage the lifestyle problems which this creates.
Moderate consumption of alcohol is part of our culture, it can be a sociable, pleasurable and relaxing experience. I would argue that making it increasingly difficult for crews to enjoy this activity will lead to increased levels of stress and discontent, and feelings of antagonism towards airline management and the legislators and enforcers, which in turn can only have a negative effect on flight safety.
The irony of all this is the drink culture in the cabin - the company directors enjoying their "champagne breakfast" before a day's hard decision making(!?). The amount of alcohol I've seen consumed by men in suits at all sorts of inappropriate times when I've been paxing has always made my jaw drop somewhat......
Last edited by Maximum; 16th Nov 2003 at 01:29.
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its quite simple really.
the common practice of rostering 5 to 6 night away in short haul, along with cabin crew leads to one thing, girls and boys will play!! and usually this involves alcohol!!
the kind of personality drawn to this job is usually outgoing etc, this means work hard and play hard.
doesnt mean that it makes it right, but how many of us have been involved in a spontainious piss up and fun (room party etc)??
by the grace of god...............
the common practice of rostering 5 to 6 night away in short haul, along with cabin crew leads to one thing, girls and boys will play!! and usually this involves alcohol!!
the kind of personality drawn to this job is usually outgoing etc, this means work hard and play hard.
doesnt mean that it makes it right, but how many of us have been involved in a spontainious piss up and fun (room party etc)??
by the grace of god...............
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Brit312
Are you suggesting that when staff see illegal activity they should hush it up and keep it in house?
Surely there was another way around this problem such as advising the crew of your worries and perhaps advising them that that it was time for the aircraft to go faulty for a few hours.Now perhaps this was tried and the advice ignored, but by calling the police in straight away can only bring the airline bad publicity.
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It' not illegal if they don't take the a/c is it??