Pulling down on the blade stresses the droop-stop tusk. The R22/R44 have coning (flapping) hinges, so they also have droop stops.

I have been researching this subject recently as I am also in process of buying an R22. The going rate based on a sample of three training organisations seems to be around £80- £85 + VAT if applicable per hour dry. All the three I have asked are highly reputable genuine operators. I am probably going to go for a no capital group arrangement to share the fixed costs. I don't really want to lease back to a training organisation for all the reasons the other poster gave, plus the main reason I am buying my own is the availability and convenience - which I would lose if it were to be located at a flight school miles away.

The "real" cost is what YOU pay for it.

The variables are:-

Insurance (so flying owner only is less than Club or As Required). So if you want to hire you need at least Club insurance, but can recover some costs.

Fuel per hour (known index per aircraft)

Based aircraft charges (landing/ hanger/ nav charges applicable to base)

Oil (.5 qt per hr)

Maintenance (50/ 100 hr charges for the R22) - this varies WIDELY in the UK (the range based on my review of the market in 2004 was 100% variation between lowest and highest, so this is a factor for owners)

Unscheduled maintenance (outside of the RHC std cost card) - my worst in one year was £60,000 due to unreported damage by a flying school, so this has quite a big impact on the individual cost card even over a five year plan.

Your margin - either you get what you ask for it at the location you want it to be or you do not. (see demand and supply below).

As you have done, divide by planned hours to establish annual charge.


There are two hard economic realities in play:-

1. Demand and supply, and there is no real shortage of R22 type machines for training leaseback. At certain times (a few months at a time), or in certain geographies, demand exceeds supply. However this tends to be short run.

2. Slim margins in aviation. Thus schools aim to pay as little as possible in order to make money from the use. Many/ certain schools own NO helicopters and just lease in machines from private owners. Why? No maintenance or unscheduled maintenance costs (the big item above). If there is damage then as long as they are flying a lot of hours then the increase in the owners maintenance passed on to them in a hourly usage charge is quite small compared with the saving in capital used on repairs. They only pay for what they use and thus can often have working capital in the bank before the bill lands.

As a flying school, why would you WANT to own machines ???

The least cost/ lowest risk/ best return is to have a few SFH pilots who fly a lot of hours and do so at low risk. The problem is finding them in a given geography if there has been a shortage of training in that region to generate high hours safe pilots .....

Ah, the eternal serpent..

Thanks for all that. I am now beginning to see the truth in all this and my fears are proving founded!

Anyone want to buy a 22?!

Seriously though, I can see to benefit in owning my own machine to build hours and then sell the thing as soon as I get an instructor rating. That should, assuming no shocking unscheduled, save me a few quid. But I don't think leaseback is for me.

Someone has told me of a deal where a school is willing to pay £75 per hour and all the maintenance and insurance. This sounds a bit too good to be true. Has anyone else ever heard of this?

Secondly, I have toyed with the idea of setting up my own school and bringing in an instructor to train me and then use the machine to earn money at other times. Any thoughts on this and any instructors around that want to come and join me? I have done a fair bit of research and think it might be a goer in the particular area I am looking.

Thanks,

If they are also a maintenace organisation then it works for them as they get the machine (no capital outlay) at low cost to use as reqd etc as before. You may find that this includes scheduled maintenance only hence the biggie of cockup maintenance would not be covered but they would seek to get this under insurance.

Setting up. Good plan. Note it has to be CAA licensed and so the Chief Pilot will have to be FI unrestricted etc and be good enough to be approved to be a CP (see LASORS).

One for sale? I know of one R22 pilot interested in buying. I'll point him at the post.

h-r

Easiest option is to set up an RF (one of the few things that are free from the CAA) however you will still need to splash out on the premises and associated books and manuals that will be required. RF though will not alow converstions for later. As previously stated you will also need to obtain an FI of standing that the CAA will accept. I doubt very much that one with enough experience will be willing to work for flying pay on a start up operation but will wish to be salaried. Along with all the other usual costs involved.

If you wish to have a chat then by all means PM me for contact details.

Max T.

Its not been mentioned explicitly so far but the way to avoid the leaseback risks and cost issue is to hire to SFH people direct.

As the R22 owner you then take all the profit rather than cutting 30 to 60% to the FS as a sales agent.

Put that into your financial model and the whole balance changes very quickly.

Thanks again red-eye,

I gather then that if this school is willing to insure any unscheduled I may have a very good deal - but only if they fly enough hours to cover my payments to pay for the machine. What would an average school do in a year? It could actually be a better investment than property or high interest accounts. Am I right?

As for the School, I assume by CP you mean chief pilot and when you refer to Lasors it's the section about QFI's? So I would need a QFI and he would be licensed and approved by the CAA by the nature of the license he holds? As in he's not a AFI but a QFI. Am I correct?

I'm erring towards this route I must admit. As at the moment I'm looking for another business to set up to give me an income. If I do it then I would also look at getting a 44 to lease from someone (now knowing what I know about leasing!!) So really the only thing in my way is getting a good QFI to join me.

I read a great article today in the Times online which was about the expected growth in flight training due to the economical sense of business people using 22's for business travel because of increasing congestion. Very interesting. I think I put 'R22 maintenance costs' into Google and it came up on the first page.

Once again, thanks for the help.

Sorry, what\'s an RF? Thanks for the advice on the self hire. I can see the benifit in that.

And thanks Max T. I think I might take you up on that offer and call you in the week if that\'s OK?

An RF is a Registered Facility and allows only Ab-initio training only so no converstions to other types later. The R44 therefore would probably not be as easy to make use of as one would first think.

The next step up would be to open an FTO. This though is more expense still and requires several members of staff to hold key positions. Beyond this is the TRTO. Both of these options though will require much more in paperwork, training manuals and quality as well as safety audits. The CAA loves their audit trails and sometimes it almost seems that these are more important than the quality of the training being given.

By all means call me if you want a chat.

MAX T.

SFAR 73 R22 duel instruction
 

Why have the FAA insisted on this directive before allowing solo flight in the R22? Why have they come down hard on the little beast ?

From SFAR 73

(3) A person who does not hold a rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must have had at least 20 hours of dual instruction in a Robinson R–22 helicopter prior to operating it in solo flight. In addition, the person must obtain an endorsement from a certified flight instructor authorized under paragraph (b)(5) of this section that instruction has been given in those maneuvers and procedures, and the instructor has found the applicant proficient to solo a Robinson R–22. This endorsement is valid for a period of 90 days.

...because before the SFAR, that "little beast" done reared up and bit a lot of low-time solo students (and a lot of low-R22-time pilots in general).

Hi guys,

I have been teaching in R22's for over 2000 hrs and my advice to anyone who wants to practice solo autorotations is
DON'T !!!

The R22 is great machine to fly but due to design characteristics very, very unforgiving under certain circumstances.

If you want to brush up on autos get yourself an experienced insturctor who will be happy to help out.

About pulling down on the blades:

If I remember correctly the ratio of force from blade tip to head (and blade stops) is around 1:75, so if you pull down with 10lbs of force on the tip you exert over 750lbs!! on the blade stops, breaking them

One thing I would like to know is why are the tachs 104% not 100% ? Anyone know.....

Frank pointed to the rotor tach and said,
"We have these helicopters specially made - most helicopters only go up to 100%, but look, ours go up to 104%. It's for when you need that little extra push over the top..."

R22 Hover Ceiling Graphs
 

Hi all,

New to Pprune,
First, obligatory apologies for stupid questions. I'm about half way through the PPL training and have been given some nasty homework. I'm far too old for homework but sadly nobody seems to care (especially my instructor).

My question is this ......
All of the performance data on the R22 Beta that I've read tells me that the max Hover IGE ceiling at MAUW is around 9500ft.
How is this figure calculated? The relevant graph in the manual doesn't seem to show this at all.
For that matter, it seems easy enough to calculate max allowable weight given PA and temp info but how does one calculate max hover ceiling given only weight and temperature information?
Do you just work through the graph backwards? If that is the case, how is the above max IGE hover ceiling of 9500ft (at max all up weight) calculated? It doesn't seem to match.

Once again ..... sorry if this makes the pro's groan with frustration.
Many thanks
Norvill.

hey man, i just looked at graph 5.4.1 at it shows MAUW IGE hover ceiling on standard day at 7000 ft PA, with temperature at approx +1C, so that fits in with standard lapse rate of 2C per 1000 ft from ISA .

At 1250lb hover ceiling is about 9300 ft PA on standard day, and temp about -5C so that more or less checks as well.

either read across from left to actual temp at that pressure altitude and then down to find max weight for that PA or start at actual weight and read up to actual temp at altitude then across to find relevant PA

remember pressure altitude is altitude indicated with 1013 set without a temperature correction, if you do correct for temperature then you have a density altitude

hope this helps

regards

CF

Thanks for that!
Ok .... If you'll bear with me, I'd like to check that I am now using these graphs correctly.
What then, would be the Max Hover Ceiling OGE given, a weight of 1370lbs, an OAT of 30 degrees C at sea level and a QNH of 1005?

I get 3400ft PA which I convert to 3160ft indicated altitude.
I hope I'm somewhere close.

Thanks in advance
Norvill

Hey man,

I dont think you are allowing for the lapse rate from ISA conditions of approx 2C per 1000 ft on a standard day
i.e. I think you are using the surface temp and then applying that at altitude which it wouldnt be (it would generally be colder)

if it is 30C at sea level it would be about 23C at 3500 ft.

In the UK use the met office chart F214 to determine temp at altitude or the OAT gauge in the aircraft BEFORE you attempt to hover OGE.

assume it is 23C at altitude the max OGE hover ceiling would be about 3800 PA which would be about 3560 QNH with 1005 set

which would be about 5500 density altitude using chart 5.3, note the R22's max operating altitude and VNE limitations are expressed as Density Altitude not pressure altitude or Indicated altitude, which on a hot day like your one can come into play earlier than you would expect

you follow ?

regards

CF

Ahhh .... I think a light has just come on! You should be billing me for ground instruction:O

Thanks very much CF

hoursbuilding
 

this is my first post to the site although i have been reading for a year or so now. i would like some views/opinions please. i have 100 hrs and an faa ppl/h, i am going to enrol with dragon on their cpl/h modular course but this is what i was thinking about my flying? i was considering the idea of purchasing an r22 with about 1000 hours left and leasing it back to a school in order to reduce the cost of my flying, has anyone any advice, comments helpful suggestions?:uhoh: :uhoh:

Mike

It does work, if you buy a good machine and don't get hit by any unexpected maintenance issues.

I was lucky with mine and had it looked after by good engineers, it was in good nick when I bought it, and had no Major hiccups.

It only takes a dent in a main rotor blade or a clutch actuator to fail and you can easily end up with bills in the 000s that you weren't expecting.

The upside is that if you keep control of the machine for the major part of your hours build you can progress very quickly. I did about 250 hours in 3 or 4 months about 5 years ago.

Make sure you trust the people who will look after it, and the people you are going to lease it too. Don't give ANYONE extended credit terms. Its your machine, they pay on time, or you take it away. Its too easy to get your fingers burnt with companies in trouble and you financing them indirectly.

V.

As I see it, there may be two reasons why a flight school would not want to own an aircraft directly: capital investment and unscheduled maintenance.
The latter has been discussed here at length and it seems that there are a few organisations who will take on their share of the unscheduled maintenance for a lower lease back rate.
Capital investment seems to be something that contributers here are prepared to do and that the schools would rather not.
On this basis how about approaching a school with the offer to finance (in part or full) an aircraft for them in return for 'cost price' rental and pro-rata share of the unscheduled maintenance ?
In this way you can separate yourself from the majority of the unscheduled whilst keeping the ability to fly at a cheap rate. If you document the finance correctly you can also keep a first calaim over the aircraft in the case that the school goes bust.

Strong Wind in the R22.
 

Not being a pilot myself but having nerves of steel and enough space to land 20 Jolly Green Giants I have recently aquired a friend who is hour building in a Robinson 22. The experience and indeed the one upmanship of having a friend pick you up and giving you a freebee for a few hours seems almost too good to be true. However, from the onset I discovered a downside that turns the distant whop whop that announces his arrival into a dilema. Can I, Cant I, Should I, Dare I, bring to his attention that the downing of several hard boiled eggs that he eagerly tells me he consumes just proir to each flight is having a detremental effect on what would otherwise be a very pleasant experience. To be blunt, I think the expression is " he farts like a trooper" this appears to occur at around twelve hundred feet. Apart from being quite blunt about the situation, which I confess I am loathed to do, could anyone who has been placed in a similar situation advise me how best to resolve this without loss of friend or freebee. ps The wearing of headsets and his constant talking, mask the release of these obnoxious gasses.

The great thing about helicopters is you can fart and nobody can hear it so most of the time you can get away with it....problem is with only 2 in the helicopter...well if it wasn't me it must have been him..!!!

The only thing you can do is ensure that the airconditioning system (a.k.a Doors Off) is working.

Other options: don't fly so high, no eggs before departure!

On the other hand, the kudos with getting the free ride in the heli, far outweighs any 'fart' that I know, so maybe let him trump away, and take some smelling salts in your top pocket!

Good post Ninginoo

cl12pv2s

Hey, see if you can get him to "vector" the - ahem - exhaust gases, and you might just manage an OGE hover two-up !!

Is there any possibility that his wind problem is so bad, he actually learnt to fly helicopters to try to mask the sound?

Or should that be smellycopters? :E

er... hope this helps... :O

Not sure I would want to heed the old advice of always keeping yer nose into the wind however.:E

fire with fire
 

Take a shot at the title
some of his own back may curb his ways (or not)

my secret weapon: heinz baked beans in ham sauce on toast, a little grated cheese & just a dash of Worcestershire sauce, if you breakfast up on that for 2 or 3 days in a row, it should last you a weeks worth

also chicken salt on hot chips seems to do it for me, not sure why, had a mate who could pump them out within 20 seconds of a swig of chocolate milk.


best of luck

PS: beware the follow through

The R-22? In addition to noxious gases? Two sound reasons to stay on the ground. ;)

Normally happens to me between 500 & 1000ft, but mine smell of roses.

And yes the noise does usually help to conceal the fart.

V.

maybe so VeeAny, but doesn't that hip roll and leg lift give it away ?? :D :O

When I am PIC and I fart, I close all the vents and turn up the heat!

Why?
Because I can!

The ultimate weapon...

Go down to the pool hall...dine on a half dozen of those pickled eggs you get out of the Penrose spicy sausage jar (the reddish colored ones)....four or five of the hot Penrose sausages, lots of imitation beer...Budweiser seems to work the best....and a pickled Pig's Foot by Penrose....the next morning you are ready for the contest!

Thank goodness for no poopy suits in the GOM!

My boss farts and this is accompanied by a sly grin, as if to say, 'If you try this you're sacked'. So with a gut full of sauerkraut and brussel sprouts I'm up to the challenge and I'm still employed.

Hi

think in this, and the best approach that you can explain to im .... :8

he is building hours, right?? so he has a goal, maybe get an CPL. So he want's to go professional, right... if he try's to do the hours to get on pace to the CPL (in flight skill's) why not start trying, TOO, be an pro... :rolleyes: if he only wants to build the hours, to get the magic number (without too much learning flying or comercial (fart with pax ??? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ), i rest my case...

regards

PS: and enjoy your freebee

I sympathise with NIGINOO's pilot friend - flying an R22 is enough to give anyone the sh..s!!

R22 tail rotor coning
 

Hi @ all,

Does anybody of you know why the tail rotor of the R22 has a fixed coning angle (about 1 degree)?

regards,
Franz

hi,

Im not totally sure of the answer but found this:

"While some tail rotors may be designed to allow coning, all tail rotors simply pre-cone the blades and don't worry about coning in the design. Helicopters with more than 2 blades (or more than 2 double stacked blades like the Hughes/MDHC-500) have a flapping hinge which acts as a coning hinge."



It is almost like they cone the blades to prevent further movement in flight?



I noticed it at the London Air Show - The Navy Lynk tail was coned dramitically?

Maybe somebody else will have a better answer?

RHM

Robinson rotor head question.
 

Take one underslung teetering rotor head say Rotorway Exec for example. From hover, put in foreward cyclic. Cyclic pitch increases as we go round the back of the mast. Machine moves foreward. Increased pressure on blade as it passes round back of mast is transmitted via rotor hub and helps push down opposite blade as it travels around the front half of the mast. ( Yes I know the pitch is reduced on the front blade). Now apply same proceedure to a Robinson 22. Question. Does the blade on the 22 move on its hinge as cyclic inputs are made or is the centrifugal force sufficient to keep the head and both blades at the same relative angle during charges of cyclic inputs.

If you are referring to the movement of the blades about the coning hinges on the R22, or what some might mistakenly call the flap hinges, they do not move with changes in cyclic, only with changes in coning, such as might happen with a change in load.
The two blades will always move together as a pair, about the teeter hinge.

With forward stick, the cyclic pitch, reaches a maximum roughly 90 degrees before the blade reaches the aft position in the Rotorway, and about 72 degrees before, on the R22(because it has a delta-3 angle which affects the phase angle).
In both ships, the blade reaches max upward displacement over the tail, assuming forward cyclic.
The rear blade does not push the opposite blade down. The pitch is reduced on the forward blade which changes the balance of lift vs centrifugal force and causes the blade to move down in front by the same amount that the other blade moves up.