Robinson fan
 

It is almost impossible to get the marks back in line following a removal and replacement of the fan. Whenever the nut is tightened the threads stretch slightly. Temperature difference will also have an effect. Providind the nut is at the correct torque setting then there should be no problem. Failure to remark the lines is however inexcusable.

uncle joe
 

my suggestion is get the engineers to wind the pitch aduster close one turn.But u have to be carefull of over speed very quicky.
Lets see what eveyone eles says.
Redude

Sounds like a good move. IMHO, the checklist was devised to cater for low hours pilots like me. If anything is not exactly as it should be, you ask an engineer, and use your common sense to decide if a don't worry it'll be ok' answer is acceptable, or just don't fly till it's sorted.

The Robbie's fairly simple, and you can choose to only fly it with zero defects (other than being a Robbie) and rarely be disappointed: you commercial chaps flying every day with half a dozen deferred defects in thousands of different components and deciding if it's in or out of a tolerance level have a much harder job to do!

BW

Re-dude
 

Auto RPM
as a verrrry simple excercise why not refer to the Robinson maintenance manual page 10-40. follow instructions, note (collective full down).

Think- what will be the minimum weight, apart from you and no fuel that is.
Is that different from basic empty weight plus min allowable cabin weight?

Subtract that from max AUW, divide the difference by the allowable auto RPM range.

Please do not be surprised that when you experiment with different weights whilst observing the auto RPM that there will be a straight line variation between auto RPM and weight. (under identical temp conditions)

Take this formula to the bell 47 (say) where there is no convenient auto table and come up with the correct auto RPM settings every time for every different loading configuration.

motto, when all else fails refer to the manual.

R22 clutch motor
 

Where I am at present instructing on 22's,we seem to be having problems with our in line fuses keep blowing on different aircraft,one of which was yesterday.Someone was saying that if they get a bit damp they will pop a fuse ?
Over the many years of r22's this statement is totaly new to me,after picking up non hangared robbies.
Someone has also suggested that robinson has contracted out the manufacture of the clutch assembly to a contractor,over the last 12 months is anyone else getting this recurrent problem...... ?:ugh:

R22 - Adding optional AUX tank to BetaII
 

Okay, its an R22 question, please don't bite my head off.

A colleague of mine is going to add an AUX tank to a BETA II and has asked me whether the AUX tank acts as an extension of the main tank and therefore spreads its load or whether the main fills first (19.2USG) and then fills the AUX..

I thought this would be an easy look up on the web, but finding it hard to find the answer...

Any assistance - much appreciated!

If on empty tanks you fill the main to the top, then go have a coffee, when you come back, there's fuel in both...

Beta II's (as far as I know!) all come with an aux tank. Maybe the alphas and HP's didn't?

Each tank has its own filler cap, you fill them independently. The gas is gravity fed and the pipes are linked across so you drain both tanks at the same time. The aux tank holds about 10.5 USG and runs out with about 5 USG left in the main tank. If you fill only one tank, they will, (I believe, over time) equalise, but if you are solo and load up the main tank (which is on the passenger side), it helps balance it out at take off (assuming you didn't fuel up the night before!!)

Correct me if I'm wrong...

BW

Spot on Bladewashout,

The main tank is the only one that feeds the engine and the aux tank gravity feeds the main. As you say if you just fill the main they will equalise over time.

IIRC the aux tank is only standard if you order an aircraft with the 7 hole instrument panel, If you opt for the 10 hole panel the the factory will not fit the aux tank due to MTOW issues.

JB

Thanks!
 

Some great responses - thanks for all your help!!! :ok:
Just some stats I found when doing some research to try and find the answer:-
Main tank holds 19.8 USG (19.2 useable)
Aux tank holds 10.9USG (10.5 useable)
Total of 29.7 usable fuel load
However it take a robbie pilot to really know the answers - so thanks guys/gals.
When calculating your take off CofG's do you take into account time prior to take off? I see the Main tank has an arm of 108.6 and Aux 103.8 so thought must go into how much the fuel has balanced itself out prior to take off?

Expect that someone can provide a precise answer to that.

I check MTOW and CofG according to the following "rules of thumb" picked up from more than one source:

• If you are within Seat Limits and MTOW in an R22 then you are within CofG
• With 2 adults onboard each of 12st you can take full fuel (Main plus Aux)
• For each 1st above this 2x12st you must leave behind 2 USG of fuel
• Seat Limit (pax plus cargo under seat) is 17st

So for example Pilot (plus cargo) at 12st and Pax (plus cargo) at 16st = 28st total.
Which is 4st over the 2x12st thus max fuel reduced by 8 USG to remain within MTOW and CofG.

Posted here in the hope that someone wiser will reconfirm or correct me?

RC

"rules of thumb"

sounds good, i'll check he manual shortly,

most important to remember with two tanks is that the vent lines are very critical, first flight out of tank off maintenance, land and check that fuel is flowing through from aux to main B4 you need ANY OF the extra 10.5 gals.

ther's been a couple who didn't, makes the A/C owners very cranky having to send out the crash recovery vehicle.

R22 cruise speed
 

Can someone please tell me the realistic cruising speed of the R22 and fuel comsumption at that speed - I know what the specs are but 110 seems perhaps a bit fast.

Thanks

85 knots, 9 USG per hour

regards

CF

Cruise speed/fuel usage
 

Yes agree 85knts and around 9 us gallons. remember if you fly in weather that could cause carb icing and apply the carb heat you will use a bit more. Forget 110!!

R22 cruise speeds/fuel burn
 

On a windy day like today 40kts forward, 120kts back!
9usgph.

Some days you could bicycle faster (and in more comfort).

Greetings from a windy, blustery, soggy, UK, (typical day here really this time of year)

SB :}

These numbers are from a Beta II.

Solo there is no problem cruising right up to VNE if the air is not gusty. I usually cruise at 95+ kts solo. If it is smooth air I will cruise at 100. Fuel burn is about 8.0-8.5 gph ( I have a JPI flow scan in the ship so it is pretty accurate)

I have done many long x-countries including a 2200mile x-country and cruised right under VNE most of the time..(at higher alts, your speed will decrease) .Except when it is real gusty and bumpy and you have to slow enough so when you get blasted the airspeed stays within VNE. This has been as slow as 65 kts at times...Not much fun to fly in that kind of weather...After being in that for 7 hours one day....I wished I had never lifted.

Dual and at gross, when I am trying to get somewhere, I cruise at 1" under mcp. This will usually give 95 kts as well but fuel flow will approach 9.5. It will go to 10+ when just under, or at mcp.

I remember the V(no) being 92 kts for the R22. Isn't this the limit for Normal Operations ?

Thanks for that. Our late Hughes 269B was lucky to cruise at 80 mph so the Robbie is a bit of a hotrod in comparison.

It is in the UK, Dtp!

The Vno is a CAA limitation which (obviously) doesn't apply in the US. Vne, as you are no doubt aware, is 102kts.


HTH,

B73

Right off robinson's website they give the cruise speed @ 70% power as 96kts.

I understand the UK has some different rules governing operation....is this possibly one of them?

Here is the link to robinson:

http://www.robinsonheli.com/r22specs.htm

(sorry, I made this post before I saw the one previous....)

LTE in a R-22 Beta II
 

Anyone ever got LTE in a R-22 before?

I ask, because I got into it a couple of weeks ago taking some photo's with my friend. Just above ETL, but then let it get into ETL, wind blowing at my 8 O'clock. I kindly introduced it to my R-22!:ugh: I yawed to the right, 780 degrees in about 2 seconds! Stomped on that left pedal, pulled a bit a pitch, got the low rpm horn, lowered the collective now, and nosed it over to fly out of it, took 2 tries to nose it over, all the time yawing back and forth. Once I got to about 20+KTS, nose started to swing left, and then checked my trousers! The whole thing took about 15 seconds, but it felt like 3 min.!

I now am more aware of where the winds are, and I was able to get out of it, with small control movements. I think had I made some careless control inputs, I would have had to put it down on the beach, but I didn't. But I made the careless movement, of introducing LTE to the R-22! You definately learn something every flight, I did that day.

Maybe you got vortex ring as well; LTE is not common in Robinsons. Usually full left pedal stops it dead; however, if entering vortex ring state downwind, then erratic yawing is a symptom. Your loss of pitch control also seems to support this theory.

Any comments?

It happened to me twice, and when I asked about it a few years back everybody said it was highly unlikely in the robbie. Nick Lappos finally answered my question and then it made sense. If the wind is off your 10 - 11 o'clock position in the hover at high gross weight the main rotor tip vorticies can get into the tail rotor and disrupt the flow and thus LTE. I've since been told that it can be over come with left peddle but I probably didn't put in FULL left peddle and have since never experienced it again. Although now maybe with the onset of it I use Full left peddle and keep a closer eye on the wind direction.

Kirt - good thinking!

About 20 years ago there was an incorrect version of the Bell 206 manual that said LTE was caused by a stalled tail rotor. It was the cause, we believe, of a film crew coming to grief over the 1984 City to Surf Fun Run in Sydney. About 10,000 mad keen runners watched the Bell 206 enter LTE and plunge into a school yard. The pilot did what he was taught and in accordance with the handbook. It took about nine seconds to come down 1,000 feet. (Saturday - kids were at home).

Manual (later withdrawn) stated the way you unstall any aerofoil is to is reduce the pitch, or angle of attack.

Now the only way to reduce pitch on the tail rotor is to use right pedal. Problem is you already have an uncommanded right yaw, and now the manual suggests you correct the situation by adding right pedal? This increases the spin even further, and loss of control may occur.

Later research showed that when you are spun around the mast (to the right) your loose shoulder harness allows you to be thrown forward in your seat. Your bum is anchored by the lap seat belt, and your upper body will lean forward. Net result is your bum slides a little under the lap belt as your shoulders move forward; just enough to pull your thigh/leg/foot aft sufficiently to reduce left pedal, and the spin is slower to recover – or not at all.

You need “metal to metal” to stop the spin in about 90 degrees in the Bell 206 family.

Lesson is to always to move your pedals towards you as your strap in, then lean forward and ensure you actually get full left pedal travel.

To reassure the Robbie drivers, Frank was a tail rotor specialist before he made the Robbies, and he took care to design this trait out of the design. However it can happen in any helicopter!

Want to try and get it – just fly into wind, then do a steep descending right hand turn to a downwind quickstop! A Bell no no, and a Robbie also.

So ends the sermon……….

When did you solo?
 

Hi,
Just Interested to those people who have done there JAA PPL on the R22!
How many hours had you pilots had before you did your first solo?
:ok:

a) most of the PPLs here their training on the R22!
b) anything from 5 hours to 50! There was a thread on it recently; the upshot of which is that everyone is different and that, essentially, it mean diddly-squat about your abilities at the end!

Cheers

Whirls

Moved, for the very good reasons given by Whirls, to the R22 thread.

Sean,
Reading between the lines (and possibly getting it wrong), I suspect you may either be concerned about your own aptitude, or thinking your instructor is holding you back. Don't worry! As my fellow Whirly said, the rate at which people learn has diddly-squat (I like that word, Whirlygig) to do with how good a pilot you'll be in the end. And hours to first solo depends on weather conditions, type of airfield, etc etc...and probably most of all on how experienced and capable of dealing with emergencies your instructor wants you to be before he lets you loose alone in about the twitchiest, most unforgiving helicopter there is. Relax and enjoy your training!

Hi all,

minimum time for solo 20hrs - period.
Anything else is to early for my taste - especially in a R-22.
Also this avoids "instructor-competitions" about who solos students faster (had that happen at my airplane-solo, 3.7 hrs, stupid, ....).

My experience with R-22 students is, that they all need some serious time to get the hang on a real auto-entry, not the regular Robinson-training auto-entry (lower collective, stabilize auto, slightly reduce rpm, ...) - but the real one (power-loss, react, entry, stabilize)
On a solo, all I care for is, that a student is able to enter and stabilize an auto, SHOULD the incredible happen and he really looses power on the solo.
You can survive a 1300 fpm impact, and most likely they do SOMETHING at the bottom of the auto anyway.
The most dangerous part is to get caught and NOT react, stall and come down at 8000 fpm (see actual video at the safety-course, the English R-22, carb-ice, power-loss, stalled rotor).
You have a hard time to get a R-22 0-hr student to that point in just 20 hrs....

3top:cool:

When we changed from Bell 47's to R22's for integrated courses at a commercial school, we found the time to solo wasn't any different at about 12 hours. Indeed the time for readiness for solo was actually slightly less due to the excellent lever/throttle correllation, and even more so when governors were fitted.The 12 hours was an artificial minimum set to reflect more time given to EOL's.
References to R22's being twitchy and unforgiving is not helpful to students to whom confidence is paramount. R22's are unforgiving of poor instruction by instructors who lack confidence themselves and revert to the "do not do this or that, it is dangerous" method.
The basic principal should be that all techniques within the flight envelope and permitted by the flight manual (including EOL's) should be taught and the student should be happy that he/she can handle the unusual without continuous dire warnings about death and destruction which is hardly conducive to a calm and confident approach
R22's also require a disciplined approach to checks and procedures, particularly with reference to carb heat. As our students transitioned directly to S61's and Super Pumas without problems, it must have something going for it as an instructional tool.

My first instructor thought confidence was paramount. I was a fixed wing PPL who thought I knew how to fly. Due to his attitude, I ended up dangerously overconfident for a while...till something happened which I won't go into here.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong, and maybe there are better ways of generating confidence. But I don't think you can safely generalise about students in that way

A mysterious problem, help please
 

Funny one this,

Instructing yesterday, radio on 123.6, change frequency to transmit on 129.725 and as I transmit low rotor horn and light come on. No yaw and RPM needle stable.

Transmit again, same thing. Try different freqencies and same happens down to 124 or so up to 132.

Pull Low rotor CB before transmitting and no horn, pop the CB in immediately after transmitting, to continue flight.

Back on the ground no sign of problem on any frequency, then later on another flight in the circuit on 122.2 same thing happens.

Ideas folks?

Mysterious Problem
 

Jemax,
Had that one long time ago in an old R22 Beta, it sure gets your attention the first time it happens eh? :eek: Especially if you are solo, or low on experience at the time.... I think it is some sort of interference from the radio, somehow activates the low RPM horn and light, cant remenber how we solved it at the time other then to pull the CB or dont use those frequencies, not very helpful I know, but if you get your avionics man to have a look, im sure he will be able to solve it. I am guessing it was an R22? if so how old is it?
Regards,
BC

It's quite an old Beta, apparently happened a while ago avionics guy was not able to diagnose at the time, but then it stopped doing it anyway.

But now it's back

Somewhere in the looms there is probably a crack in the insulation allowing induction from the radio transmit, probably worse when there is a bit of damp. A sod to locate. We had a few such problems way back, even when our R22B's were new. The electronics guy's were a bit sniffy about some of the Robinson cable work.

Time to solo
 

Yep, rushing students to solo early to benifit their and their instructors egos is not a good thing.

Personally, speaking as someone who flew into cloud on my third solo, I think it is crazy that students are sent solo without even an introduction to instrument flying, especially the AH. I was fortunate enough to drop out of the cloud with only about 15deg bank, but it could have been very different.......

I am not sure who s**t himself more, me or the spectating instructor.....

I am troubled that such a simple aircraft has so many doubtful conditions that this thread has ballooned into a huge treasure of information.
Firstly, I am not a great fan of the R22 for I see in it's design that it was superbly engineered for 'private transport', for the private owner to use for pleasure or his private work. However, training organisations have it on their inventory and believe that it is agood training machine. I beg to differ and I will now duck down behind the bomb proof wall and watch the bullets fly. The R44 is a very different beast and the rumour that R22 production could cease in favour of more R44's sounds good to me.

Secondly, as far as the instructors ability to train a student will very much depend, not on finite lying skills but on the experience and depth of knowledge that an instructor should have before taking up instructing. This then would ensure that if confidence in the airworthyness of the helicopter is required then it is the ability of the instructor to demonstrate the safety aspects in such a manner that the student 'learns' the correct techniques and procedures which will ensure safety at all stages of flight.

Finally, some of the previous comments above cause me concern that there are some instructors lacking certain teaching skills. And to this end not providing the very best for the student under their guidance. I am ducking down behind that wall again as I know there are some factions who are out there instructing who are ardent that the R22 is the best training machine and their minds will never accept the fact that there are better machines out there which have a proven record as trainers. These instructors perhaps do not have that depth of knowledge pertinent to their employ.

Ivey. .

Dont kid yourself the AH would be useful to you in an R22 after your 3rd solo. .Learning not to fly into cloud a lot easier. .

Horn on TX
 

Sounds like a bad coaxial cable shield connection at the radio.