R22 Corner
 

Scenario:
One pilot solo weighing 12 stone.
Needs to practice engine off landings.
Problem:-
Lower collective,governor off,wind off throttle,speed back to 60/65kts with right rudder.What happens next??
Well,rotor rpm decreases but collective is all the way down.Reducing speed further may help but only in the short term.
Only solution is to wind on the throttle and overshoot because the aircraft is too light with only one p.o.b.
Any ideas??????
Always take a busty blond when practising these exercises???
But what happens if it really quits when solo??

well i fly r22s and am only 10 and a half stone.
keep 70 knots , the little extra airspeed helps recover to 110% at the end your rrpm shouldnt go below 90%, low i know but it is acceceptable if the rrpm persists in dropping after 90 % you should recover the problem may be in the rigging, talk to an engineer and he should be able to add a more negative pitch when collective is down , the collective will have a higher position in normal flight.

other option is to bring weights with you but if and when you do have a real engine failure( i have had 2 so far) you need to be able to handle the helicopter with just you, and god help you if you are light on fuel at the time as less weight
= less rrpm

[This message has been edited by whatsarunway (edited 18 October 2000).]

uncle joe,
you dont say how many hours you have on an r22. Suggest strongly you practise autos with an instructor and dont worry about weight of a/c with 1 pob. minimum weight well below 12 stone! what rudder?

whatsarunway,
pilot operating manual doesn't mention 70kts or 105% rpm, 10.5 stone also above min pilot weight. redline for rpm is 90%, why try 85%.

No offence guys, but you seem to be guessing.
This could add to statistics!

What about doing a S-Turn to increase the load on the disk and increase rrpm.

captain 206

only just passed test on r22.
1600 hrs fixed wing so that is where "rudder"slipped in.
Still doesn't answer question.
Weights under pax seat when solo would solve problem but not satisfactory for obvious reasons.

Uncle joe,...

I can just go along with what some other people have to say here. With 1600hrs fixed wing and having just passed the R22 ride, you are taking, without any offense, a pretty good chance of becoming a statistic by practicing solo autos.

I know it is very tempting, but for your best, leave it alone. Practice with an instructor and hope for the best if you should have a real engine failure on your own.

As for the RPM- the R22/ R44 is not a very forgiving machine. As long as you are above the minimum aircraft weight, which a normal R22 with standard equipment and at least one pilot oboard :) always is, you should be able to contain and maintain RPM. If not, you may have an engineer check the rigging of the blades since it seems very strange.

Now when you are light, yes, you may not be able to recover or only slowly recover the lost RPM.

Don't listen to suggestions of having your RPM down below 90%- there is no need for it and by the end of the flare, every percent counts.
The only time you could consider the RPM in the mid 90 range is if you are looking for the max glide distance.

S-turns as someone suggested, doesn't help. You may increase the loadfactor temporarlily, but as you roll out of a turn you are back to square one. However, it is a good way of adjusting your glide distance to hit a spot.

The pedal input will not have any significant result on your RPM. Yes, it does create more drag on the aicraft if you are out of trim, but that will only increase your rate of descent, not affect your RPM.

If you ever should have the chance, attend the Robinson Pilot Safety Course.

For the meantime, please, may I suggest agai to stay away from solo autos, it would be a pitty to read about you in a safety bulletin.

Tiltrotor

Thanks for your comments.The big difference between having 30 years flying fixed wing and a novice at helicopters is in fixed wing during engine failure/stalls the nose is pushed down to increase airspeed and obtain optimum glide speed wheras in the hlicopter the airspeed is brought back by raising the nose to achieve 65kts.
I am quite capable of doing this reversal
even though I am old and decrepid!!
I cannot see the logic in disuading pilots not to practice solo engine failures when they may need to react one day to the real thing.
Other than changing the rigging on the r22,and I may hire a different one each time,how do you stop the revs dropping below 90%??
Methinks some balast under the pax seat is the only answer.
Thanks for the help anyway.

Uncle joe's... m.b.

Regrading your question about the RPM, as I said earlier, if you have the collective fully down, during an established glide (power off) at 65 KIAS, you should not have to worry about the RPM being to low and not recovering.

I have plenty of experience in both the R22/R44 and as a normal weight pilot- no trouble. If you cannot contain the RPM, then there has to be something else wrong.
The above is based though on an immediate entry meaning collective fully down instantaneoulsy. You don't have the inirtia of a Bell 212 rotor and if you don't lower the collective immediately, it is quite possible for the RPM to droop of and only recover very, very slowely. Still, it should recover if all is OK with the rotor rigging.

About practicing autos, by no means would I like to discourage anybody from practicing emergency procedures. However, having trained many people in the R22 and R44, amongst them, like yourself, very experienced fixed wing pilots, I would just strongly urge you to think about it twice in an R22 especially at the early stage in helicopters you are in.

As I said, it is a great training helicopter, never the less very unforgiving.
Training autos with an instructor in the R22 can be much more rewarding then solo. If you have passed your checkride I guess you will stand a fair chance living through an auto.
However, only continuous instruction to an advanced level will teach you how to successfully walk away, pick up another machine and go flying again.

And the thing about the R22 also is that establishing the glide isn't the hardest. Most hard landings occur during power recoveries, due to the fact that people overcontrol the aircraft, have difficulties coming out of turns resulting in generally low RPM, the speed is being bled off and there you go....

I hope you understand my scenario- it is absolutely not a critique on your pilot judgement, just a suggestion. Just like I wouldn't go out in a fixed wing during my first solo and practice steep spirals.

Uncle Joe,

Please do autos with an instructor - everyone else is right - you ARE going to come a cropper if you persist. I practice autos to power recovery only on my own, and our club insists we have 100 hours under our belts before we try on our own - its just so risky. Better still, on your next annual check flight book an hour or two with the examiner to practice autos.

Statistics show that prior to 1995 it was mainly fixed wing pilots that had R22 accidents in the USA, because of the natural reaction to push cyclic forward. Are you certain you wouldn't do that in a panic?

It seems many R22 engine failure can be attributed to carb ice so better to make sure you always operate FULL carb heat below 18 inch MP (and prior to climb out too!!).

Take care, fly safely....

Uncle Joe

Also fly 10 hours (carefully) and then do the R22 safety course - it the best £300 you'll spend, you'll learn a lot, and respect the R22 a lot more too....

I did the course with Dick Sandford - excellent!!

A certain large British helicopter operating company that used to have a training school with R22s ensured that the autorevs at min collective pitch were set at the high end of the permissible band. Dual autos required a touch of lever to contain NR in many circumstances, but for solo student practice autos (NB EOLs prohibited for students solo)the NR would be comfortably in the green arc when settled in auto.
A good practice, commended to any other training organisation using R22s.

After 1500 hours teaching in R22`s and various other types. It`s the first time I`ve heard that you lower the colective and reduce speed to 60/65 knots.

I always teach on entry to an auto its lever fully down and flare (not back to 60 knots) but back enough to save the rpm.
Sure your rpm might run high but you can bring it back down with the collective.

Better having too much rpm than not enough if the engine quits for real.
Once you`ve established in the auto then you can select 65 knots.

You`ll get away with reducing the speed back to 60/65 knots in a B206 but I doubt you would in a R22.

uncle joe,
It doesnt matter what is under the seat if the engine fails! RPM is what makes a helicopter fly. The R22 will autorotate at any speed between zero and max range speed but you will die if you are relying only on how heavy it is. PLEASE practise with an instructor on board.
The odds of an actual engine failure in an R22 are infinitessimal compared with the odds of you cocking up a solo auto.

There might be a problem with the pitch change links on the mainrotor swashplate. tell your mechanic that problem and let him look at it. It might be that the angle is too small.

I´m in person a CFI and I tell you that you should not practis auto´s by your sell. Go with your CFI because it´s your life. Don´t save money on that!

Fly safty!

Hannes

In the UK it is a requirement for the grant of a certificate of airworthiness that the aircraft reaches a minimum autorevs at a given low weight. If it does not achieve them it is not airworthy and as said above - needs looking at.
I agree with the comment that auto's should not be practised without an instructor. Stalling a fixed wing is quite uneventful compared to the problems you may experience experimenting with a R22.

Fastback:

I guess with what was meant here in the threads by lowering collective is collective fully down. However, as we both know, if you are flying at e.g. a 100 KTS and fully lower collective while simultaneously flaring the R22, God bless you, because the RPM will be through the roof pretty quickly.
As for your speed recommendations, maybe have a quick look at the R22 manual or speak to instructors that have really taught in the R22. The recommended glide speed is 65KIAS.
And yes, you will live through it, even if you have less speed. In fact, you can even do a no flare auto in the R22/ R44 by holding your speed consistently at approx. 40 KIAS, RPM top range and just applying full collective as you approach the ground.
Not that I want to give anybody any ideas, but it works.

Anyhow, the speed in the R22 only matters as you are getting ready for the flare, and the 65 KIAS seem to be just a good value. Any slower then 55, you may be missing the A/S for a good RPM value, any faster then 70/ 75 KIAS before the flare and it becomes quite tricky to control the RPM.

You are perfectly right to say that you can control the RPM with collective during the glide, which you almost every single time have to do, not only in the R22. But for student pilots and freshly rated pilots the idea is "KISS" keep it simple and stupid.

Establish a glide as consistent as possible and use the free time to think about what's next.

Thanks guys for the advice.
Isn't prune great for helping fellow aviators with experienced and friendly advice?
What have I learned?
1)more auto's with an instuctor until at least 100 hrs P1.
2)Once the collective is down the flare is more important than the 65kts.Over reving can be controlled by collective.
3)In fixed wing forced landings without power
were practiced all the time,but like someone said practising solo in the r22 may create more difficulties than benefits until more experience gained.
4)I find it difficult to feel comfortable in a helicopter after 30 years in fixed wing.Its more of an ordeal rather than a pleasure.Hovering at 1000 ft is mind blowing when I am used to 160kts in the 401.
I need loads and loads more hours to start enjoying my flying and feel comfortable with the emergencies we have been discussing.
Thanks

Hey Uncle Joe,

I whish you the best for your flying in the R 22. It´s great from you that you are listing to the opinions from other people and that you are learing out of that.

Most students of mine thought, after there checkride, that they are the best pilot´s in the world and that they can do everything, but belive me you are learning a lot during each fly. Watch other people flying and look at there attidude and learn from them what they are making right and what wrong.

Anyway, I´m not your CFI, but enjoy each fly you are in the Helicopter because it´s such a great fun!

Take care

Hannes

Dear uncle joe,
Fantastic! I just read your last post (no pun intended). I agree that this forum is good to learn from. It seems to me that the speed/rpm question becomes irrelevant if the instructor is sitting next to you when you cock it up. I am real happy that you now see the danger of high time plank versus low time rotary. The laws of primacy will always prevail. I Look forward to exchanging messages with you for longer than previously thought possible.

It would seem that you may have a problem with the collective rigging if you really are experiencing that low an Nr. As suggested above, a more experienced pilot should check the auto-revs and if necessary adjustments made. I concurr with multip.

When trying autorotations, remember that 90% of the benefit comes from practising the entry, subsequent sight picture PFL and Nr control. The landing is unecessarily risky and come the day of a real failure, the most important bit is getting to a safe landing site; you'll almost certainly get away with the engine off landing then.

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Another day in paradise

Uncle Joe,
If you're comfortable doing full-down autos, don't let anyone discourage you. Do them! Use common sense, of course- pick your day, make sure there's some wind blowing and have a big, flat, unobstructed area. Have a ball! I would advise against power-recoveries. Too risky. Make a good entry, commit yourself and go to the ground. This way you'll have the confidence that you'll be able to do it "for real." As an experienced plank driver, you probably have enough air sense and judgement by now. And if you do muck it up, hey, you knew the risks going in, right?

One last thing. An R-22 whilst solo may run the Nr on the low side. But then, it doesn't need to overcome that much inertia at the lighter weight, eh?

Be careful and have fun.

It seems strange when I read the above posts in that you are all highly experienced pilots and you all disagree about how to set the helicopter up for autorotation. Which one of you is correct.

Another thing I find strange, is that in some of my past postings, and in the report I sent to many of you, I specifically stated that the rigging procedure on both the R22 and the R44 is vague and ambiguous and could lead to the incorporation of excessive pitch and many of you tossed it off as the ramblings of an idiot (my words not yours).

Yet in many of the above postings some of the writers alluded to a possible rigging problem. Could it be that we are both right?

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The Cat

Flare Dammit,
If Uncle Joe was comfortable doing autos he wouldn't be having the difficulties he is, would he? How you feel isn't always a good indication of what you can do safely.

Lu,
Firstly, not everyone here is highly experienced. Doesn't stop them saying what they think, and it shouldn't either. Secondly, they're really only disagreeing as to details. Look at threads on any other forum, eg the arguments about carb heat on final on the Instuctors Forum; you'll find loads of similar minor disagreements. As you say, there can be times when both sides are right.


Whirly

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To fly is human, to hover, divine.

From the R22 Pilot's Operating Handbook:

OVERCONFIDENCE PREVAILS IN ACCIDENTS
A personal trait most often found in pilots having serious accidents is overconfidence. High-time fixed-wing pilots transitioning into helicopters and private owners are particularly susceptible. Airplane pilots feel confident and relaxed in the air, but have not yet developed the control feel, coordination, and sensitivity demanded by a helicopter.....When flown properly and conservatively, helicopters are potentially the safest aircraft built. But helicopters are also probably the least forgiving. The pilot should allow himself a greater safety margin than he thinks will be necessary, just in case.

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To fly is human, to hover, divine.

It take a certain amount of balls to fly helicopters. Its why femmes dont make good helo pilots ;). One must be aggresive, both physically and mentally. Timidity makes for a lousy helo pilot characteristic. I never knew a helicopter pilot who was worth a sh** who didn't *think* he was pretty damn good. The problem is, we're not supposed to admit it out loud. Also, we have to have the chops to back it up. Yes, its easy to think you're better than you are.

But how do you get good? You go out and practice, man. Like sex, practising alone will polish your technique.

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The fly is human, the hippo bovine

[This message has been edited by helidrvr (edited 29 October 2000).]

Timidity will make for a lousy helo pilot, but overconfidence will kill him. Thankfully, those are not the only two alternatives.

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To fly is human, to hover, divine.

Flare

Really! You should come and fly with one or two lady helicopter pilots that I know.

Incidentally, my second husband does not agree with your views about women in general – he has asked me to say that the women he has been involved with (when their corner is truly threatened) are more ruthless and viscous than any man. Indeed he thinks they would make the best fighter jocks because of this – as well as because the female of the species performs better under high g as the centrifuge shows.

34

God bless anonimity.

With regards to the low RRPM issue, it is a part of the test flight after a service to check the rotor rpm. To do this we have to fill out the Auto RPM graph that takes into account the Gross WT of the aircraft, as well as the ambient coditions. If we fill out this graph it shouldn't matter what the weight is or the conditions, we will ALWAYS be able to achieve at least the minimum RRPM in an Auto.
Having said that - it is not uncommon to jump in a machine that has the rigging set up that requires about one half to an inch of collictive to stop the overspeed in the auto. Some people think this is good but realy it is taking away precious collective travel that will be needed to cushion the landing after the flare at the bottom.

We have an instructor in Australia that demonstrates a 40 knot Auto'. It does work, but is probably not appropriate for normal operations where you need a zero airspeed touchdown in the bush or on soft ground. The 40 kts auto requires any thing from 3 to 5 skid lengths to stop - A horrible feeling. The zero speed touchdown is the one we should be striving for, but I guess in the training environment, initialy instructors can teach the 40 kts auto knowing that it will probably save the students life (maybe not the machine) with regards to their experience. Who knows.

Nothing beats a good old split ass flare at the bottom.

Cheers

Flare Dammit

Please, you are just a wind up..... aren't you? Like the jokes but encouraging mintballs to risk his neck is beyond a joke.

The more I read about the R22 in this and other threads just re-inforces my view that it is a nasty bit of kit designed and waiting to bite at the slightest pilot error.

Really, any aircraft that can't be safely autorotated by a low hour solo simply doesn't deserve a C of A. Christ on a bike, what does he do if the motor quits or his elastic bands snap, call for an in flight instructor transfer?

perleeeze.

Ark :

The R22 can be safely autoed by low time pilots. How else do they pass their GFTs ? Even I can do it and I'm lower time than most !!

If the a/c has low RPM even with a 12 stone bod in it and the lever full down, that's a rigging problem - difficult to detect on a pre-flight, and not really related to certification unless the design ( and here's a nod in Lu's direction ) the certification is flawed.

Tell you one thing, it makes you very quick at getting the lever down - that's something that can only help in ANY type you fly. I remember seeing a story about a Super Puma reaching 70% Nr in a flight test - if I find the reference I'll post it.

Lastly - have you ever flown a Robbie ? If you're talking from personal experience that's fine, otherwise I'd be only too happy to give you a jolly to find out for yourself.

To all you heli guys above. I have always had a strong fascination in helicopters even after many thousand hours in fixed wing and still hanker after doing a ppl/h, however I have to say after all this talk of low rotor rpm and particularly the R22 and its particular flying characteristics I am wondering whether i had just better stick to what I know. Someone convince me otherwise or is there a better small helicopter to learn on than the R22. Meanwhile keep flying safely and I will continue to look on with envy.

Interesting how virtually all the criticisms of R22s come from people who haven't flown them.

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To fly is human, to hover, divine.

I think this forum is fantastic for picking up peoples opinions and experience. I would also like to leave my comment on this subject which is that my CFI (I fly R22s) has ingrained into me that "Autos are your personal insurance policy" and I make sure that I have at least 1.5 hrs every 3-4 months with an instructor covering autos. I would never dream of doing them on my own at this stage (80 hours TT). I just hope that if I ever have to commit myself to a real one that all this training and experience pays off and I can walk away from it, I,m sure it will.

I'm not a helo driver but have spent a few hours in them courtesy of the offshore industry and a fellow ppruner and thus I do appreciate that they are a tad less stable than your average plank supported aircraft. I agree with the people that say practice auto's with an instructor. When I first did aeros, if I didn't feel happy with my (self) chosen detail, I'd drag an instructor along.

You only get the one life, this is not a rehersal.....

PS. Didn't Mr. Robinson throw his hands up in horror at the thought of the R22 being used as a training machine?????

PPS. Flare Dammit. Practising sex alone? That makes you a w a n k e r in most civilised countries. Hope your helo driving abilities don't reflect this.

[This message has been edited by LowNSlow (edited 31 October 2000).]

Put some extra weight under not only your seat, but both...

Flew with a couple of guys who only weighed 115lbs or so and we always added weight under his/her seat (expecially on solo flights)

Being fat bastard that I am - I only need to floor collective and leave it there prior to flare when practicing autos solo.

Low-time pilots should practice w/instructor until maneuvers is mastered, but I guess you've heard this already.

later

Yo: LowNSlow:

Re. your comment:

PS. Didn't Mr. Robinson throw his hands up in horror at the thought of the R22 being used as a training machine?????

Yes, that's true but his company still pops them out of the pod knowing full well that most of them are being used for trainers.

In any case, when a new buyer purchases one he too must be trained in either a school ship or, in his own helicopter.



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The Cat

hey Joe,
1st, don't worry about rudder. American Navy helo pilots call it that. ( I am ex Army). Sounds your a/c may have a riging problem. You have a potentially dangerouse problem there. Call maint. to re-rig the system. Even though I never flown a R22, I do have a CFII and a helo is a helo. Go with a experienced pilot?mech and check the rigging
j

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How could they possibly be Japanese planes?

— Admiral Husband E. Kimmel

Believe me, Germany is unable to wage war.

— Former British Prime Minister David LLoyd George, 1 August, 1934.

[This message has been edited by before landing check list (edited 07 November 2000).]

A simple explanation that has been overlooked is when the R22 was rigged. Summer vs winter. Also, expect a lower end RRPM at lower weights, its normal. Solo R22 autos are a bad idea because it IS an unforgiving aircraft of errors, it wasn't designed to be a trainer, it just happens to be very economical to operate. Respect the limits of the aircraft and you will have no problems.

BTW: I love them!

Robinson: Tech Q's
 

Once again, I must admit to a major error. The error was in my statements about the 18-degree offset on the rotating swashplate, in relation to the stationary part of the swash plate. The fact that when the blades are disposed over the lateral axis creates an 18-degree difference between the two elements of the swashplate means absolutely nothing and, I am sorry that I took up so much of your time in trying to justify the offset. I tried to tie this into gyroscopic precession and the left tilt of the rotor disc. I also referenced the fact that this difference could cause an increase in pitch possibly resulting in blade stall. On this particular point I was really wrong. In Frank Robinsons’ explanation of this problem he talked about delta effect and that pretty much explained his side of the story.

How I came to this conclusion was by reading and re-reading the rigging procedures. Some of you may have read my posts on this thread where I compared a Bell Rotor system to that of a Robinson rotor system. You may recall I suggested a test on both helicopters where the blades were positioned in a specific way and the cyclic was to be moved in a specific direction. In the case of the Bell the blades would not move but on the Robinson they would move. Then I suggested that the Robinson blades be rotated until the pitch links were above a specific axis and then the test was to be repeated. When the cyclic was moved the blades did not move. I used this point to show that there was an 18-degree offset on the swashplate and if not compensated for the helicopter would move to the left when the cyclic was moved forward. This conclusion was correct but the basis for the conclusion was incorrect.

Prior to going any further I have to assume that most of the participants on this thread all believe in phase angle and 90 degrees of gyroscopic precession. If you don’t agree with this concept you can stop reading this post right now.

Here is the real story. When the Robinson R22 and R44 are rigged for cyclic control ranges the blades are rotated so that the pitch links are directly over the lateral or longitudinal axes of the helicopter. Unlike the Bell where the blades are disposed over either the longitudinal or lateral axes of the helicopter the Robinsons’ blades are offset 18-degrees ahead of the respective axes.

This means that when the cyclic is pushed forward from the neutral center the blades will have reached their maximum pitch input and with gyroscopic precession they will have their maximum response to that input 90-degrees later. That means, that the blades will tip down left of the longitudinal centerline. The ultimate conclusion was correct but the means of reaching it was flawed. Frank Robinson knew that my assumption was correct but, but my reasoning was not, so he weasel-worded his way out of it by stating that the engineering explanation about delta hinge effect was too complex to put into words in the forum.

Let’s hear you comments


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The Cat

I asked around a little about the R22 rotor design after reading Frank's post and the numerous others on the subject and I heard pretty much the same thing that Frank said. The 18 degrees was designed into the head to try to deal with some complex characteristics involved with pitch coupling. The R22, if designed with a 90 degree offset, would force the pilot to compensate in the low speed regime. The design as it stands, necessitates some compensation at higher speeds. From what I understand, without complex flight control servos and such, the design chosen by the manufacturer will always be a compromise. I'd love to hear more on the subject myself, especially from someone who has a knack for teaching.