It is just a subjective observation which I have not had time to research properly. Mine has just had the -4 blades fitted and the other day I decided to put the blade tie downs on as it was out overnight and getting windy. I retrieved the tie downs from under the seat and ithe front one would not fit as the cord was not long enough. I had to find a piece of rope to extend it and make it fit comfortably.

Are they perchance longer?

I don't think they are longer, I have always found with most tiedowns for R22's that you have to tilt the head so it's lower at the front to tie it all up nicely. Certaibnly if they were longer it would explain the loss of power due to the extra weight, i think this would have caused some big problems though...

Yes, could be. As I said it was just an observation. It was getting a bit windy at at the time and I just left the blades as they were. I don't really have a power comparison as I bought it with the new blades already fitted. As you say, additional length would cause all sorts of problems so I very much doubt if they are any different in that respect.

The cows have been nibbling them during the night perhaps ?/

h-r:)

R44 Raven ll not starting
 

R44 Raven ll operating under normal ops, turned off to refuell, used rotor brake won't restart. Engine only started after x wiring starter motor, clutch will not engage. Engine will not start by starter button. Any Ideas what the problem is ????
Aircraft total hours 197

I think it's buggered!

I guess you know that the rotor brake must be disengaged for start on Robbie's. Has the brake stuck ON? The microswitch on the brake itself could be knacked, thus not allowing the starter circuit to be completed. As for the clutch, again that could be the microswitch. I don't know how different the electrics are on the Raven2 compared to the original. It could be something simple like a short in the start circuit, however, my suggestion...


ask an engineer!

Take a look at the fuze on the RHS engine bay (next to the MR Chip & Low Fuel tester buttons).

Or the clutch switch itself as this links to the starter circuit.

Or even the master battery switch which could have failed.

Prob electrical (or bad bad bad fuel ??_

h-r:)

There have been a few rumours/examples of Raven IIs (ie: Fuel Injected versions) not starting when hot. Explanation has always been vapour locks.


I can vouch for the rotor brake microswitch causing trouble. Had it happen yesterday in the middle of an Airshow! Luckily got to do the main 5 ship hovering display after it wouldn't start once. Fixed itself.


Got it going then it wouldn't start for the group fly past later- not a big deal.
Anyway - found the top wire broken off at the solder joint on the microswitch. Soldered it back on and worked. Interestingly the "rotor brake on" light didn't illuminate with that wire broken.
Not sure why not. Worked when we connected it back up. I would have thought it would act like the brake was on and light up. ??

Have had a previous time when the switch itself stuck so that it stayed in the brake on position. Pulling on the brake chain and letting it fly back released it. Switch was replaced and was full of grunge.

If you get panel lights gauges etc with the master battery switch on and then nothing happens when you turn on the ignition switch - no sound of relays or vibrator, solenoids or starter motor. Think about the rotor brake .

Had mine changed last year. But the main problem I had was that it took a lot of fiddling to get the blades right.

Initially they caused the collective to rise so fast that if I took my hand off the collective to change the radio the machine took off. So we changed the spring under the Pax seat to a lower tensioned one. (That is the biggest pain of a job I have seen on the Robbie. Getting the spring in and out is very difficult and is asking to have all your fingers sliced off by exploding spring)

Helped a bit but not much. Then changed the pitch links a bit still not much help then ended up doing the tabs - which we knew was the problem but we didn't want to do them if we could get away with it.
Then we changed the spring back because though it stopped the rise on the ground - in flight it kept on dropping to the floor.

The Dash 2 blades were a smooth as smooth and I expected that we would be able to drop the new blades on and it would be pretty much the same - Nope!

I was not very happy for quite a while but it finally got sorted out.
In the end it took about 6 or 8 hours of fiddling - over two or three sessions to get them right.

Ah, but that would make them shorter. Perhaps cows can stick bits on? I can vouch from bitter experience at the weekend for the detrimental effect of pigeon poo on the blade tip however.

Different washout profile?

Did the starter motor turn the engine over and the engine would not start?

If this was the case, Did you prime the HOT engine? If so how long? (We used to prime the Raven 2 with a hot engine about 5 seconds, I will check I have a check list at work)

Did the starter motor not turn the engine? If so

Was the clutch light still on?

Was the rotor brake on?

I used to fly an Astro a few years back we had a problem quite often when the starter would not turn the engine we use to hear a clicking noise and the engine simply would not turn, We had to turn the small cog on the starter shaft (Underneath on the back of the engine) when this hapened. Then it would start no problem, BE SURE TO TURN OF THE BATTERY BEFORE TURNING THE COG. If this is the problem then your maintance needs to sort it out.

Blades are Heavier
 

I was told by Robinson that the new blades (stainless steel skins) are about 3 pounds heavier. Doesn't sound like much, but it depends on how that extra 3 pounds are distributed. Of course, I could be dead wrong, but I figured I'd share what I heard.

{Any Ideas what the problem is ????}

Well a couple come to mind, it's Robi and it ain't got no turbine! :)

Had this problem myself last winter...........it was the microswitch on the rotorbrake a bit dicky.
All the best,
Micky:ok: :ok:

We are just about to upgrade our astro model for a Raven II....mainly for charter and tours etc....has anyone out there had any major problems with the machine, anything to watch out for thats different than the astro apart from the obvious?

cheers

R22 RPM overspeed
 

i have heard rumours at the flying school which i self fly hire at that a few of the R22's are in a bad state, due to alleged practice autos allowing the rotor RPM to go over its limits. I know in a real emergancy, you would need all the rotor RPM available, but must be contained during practice. Can anyone give me any advice on how to go about this issue? Is there any signs that this may have occured in previous flights of the helicopter im flying in? before anything catasrophic should happen.

Andyhelo,

You are touching a very,very serious matter!

If you know that overspeeds have happened in the past at the school where you learn, don't go there anymore!

Unfortunately there are normally no obvious signs of overspeeds.

As per engine maintenance manual, overspeeds are classified in different categories depending on the amount of overspeed.
These can range from a slap on the wrist to scrapping blade attachement points, blades and bearings.

Try to find out what exactly happened and seek clarification.

If, during practice autos / EOLs, the RRPM stays in the green and a successful conclusion is reached, that would seem to indicate that in the real event, there's no need to exceed RRPM limits - especially at the bottom end !

Headsethair:
Your Oct. 19, 2004 post in this thread that was directed to Muffin is completely wrong as far as the answer to his question went.
You should reread your flight principles again. You're lost.

Wherever autos are taught, there will be overspeeds. You can be a very quick instructor, but some day a student will flare it just a bit too fast and unexpectedly it will happen. Having a couple of overspeeds a year is not a big deal, and at larger schools, expected.

Below 116% (which is what the tach is calibrated for, if it goes higher, you cannot tell how high the RPM actually went) the inspection is relatively minor, looking over the rotor head and taking partially apart the engine (if it was an engine overspeed as well) Above 116% it's a major inspection that requires removable of the rotorhead and a dye penetrant inspection as well as disassembly of the engine.

There is a sign that an R22 rotorhead has been over sped. It manifests itself in a 1 to 2 fore/aft (I think) vibration from the main rotorhead in cruise. This isn't to be confused with bad tracking, you can actually see the cyclic pulsing. What has happened is the extra centrifugal forces have pushed the oil away from the proper place in the boots and the spindle bearings will be worn from the overspeed.

Despite the increased loads on the rotor head from a minor overspeed, I wouldn't be concerned with structural integrity issues of the main rotor system. However, if the overspeeds are common and the proper inspections aren't done, they could defiantly cause serious problems. If the helicopters truly are abused though, you will see evidence in the general condition of the helicopter; and if you don't like what you see, don't fly it.

James

SFAR 73 R22 question
 

I know of instructors who are providing FAA IR training in R22s that do NOT have the SFAR73 instructor "signoff endorsement" - is this legal?

One of them said to me "the signoff wasnt required for IFR flight"

But SFAR 73 5) iv) states that an endorsement is needed to teach in R22s. It doesnt mention VFR/IFR.

?????

I fly in Europe, Here you don't have to do the safety course but it's a good idea.

I don't know if you need a sign off in the States, This said if you do need a sign off for visual instruction it makes sense that you'd need a sign of for instrument instruction (You can still have the same problems occur)

It sounds like your instructor is talking through his arse.

Those instructors have got it wrong.

The SFAR says...

(5) No certificated flight instructor may provide instruction or conduct a flight review in a Robinson R-22 or R-44 unless that instructor-- etc...etc...etc...

Flight training is defined as training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft. 61.1(b)(6)

Instrument training is defined as time in which instrument training is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulated instrument conditions. 61.1.(b)(10)

Although the SFAR uses the term 'instruction' instead of 'training', the intent is the same. This is explained in part in John Lynch's FAR FAQ.

So to conduct any sort of training in the R22/44 the pilot must have complied with SFAR73-1(5) a.k.a 'Sign-off'.

Those instructors most likely believe they do not need the sign off for IFR on the basis that the pilot they are flying with is already a rated pilot.

However, if they are logging this flight as training towards an instrument rating (i.e. counting towards the aeronautical experience requirements) then the flight is considered a 'training' flight and the SFAR sign off is required.

cl12pv2s

Mmm... thats what I thought. Sounds a bit dodgy to me.

It appears that the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has taken some action on R22 MRB failures.

Read the Airworthiness Directive here EASA AD

Tinkicker...

priming an r22 in denmark
 

i am informed by a danish pilot that in denmark r22's are primed by means of a pump on the floor and not the throttle (is this modification from the factory??) and also that the carby heat control is on the dash where the cabin air knob is, is this right??? , if so why is it so??? :confused: :confused:

now I am not an expert in this but I have flown a UK registered R22 with priming pump.

my understanding is that they are normally fitted to aircraft that operate in cold countries (the one I flew had come from sweden)

the pump is located next to the datcon meter, and you pump it a few times then ensure that is down and locked prior to starting.

all it does is give a squirt of fuel direct into the Inlet manifold or direct into each cylinder (I cant recall which) to aid starting, and the exterior pipework was evident on both sides of the engine.

so in the UK you never need to use it, furthermore on the a/c I flew the carb heat was in the normal place NOT where the cabin air knob normally is.

thats all I know, can anyone expand on this ?

regards

CF

The primer is an extra option, Ive flown a few R22's with a primer fitted. On the R22 it's next to the datcon you can also have one fitted on the R44 but thats on the right side of the engine. Ive never bothered using it I always prime with the throttle, If ever you fly a heli with primer always make sure it is down and locked in position this is very important.

Flew an early R44 Clipper which was brought in form Canada/Alaska (can't remember which) and it had a primer by the datcon. Fantastic when OAT's are hovering around zero...three primes, lock it away.... your in business. Have also seen them mounted in the engine bay but never used one. Yet to see one in Aus on a 22.

R22 model history - any info?
 

Can anyone shed some light on the main differences between the R22 models (HP, Alpha, Beta, Beta II)

I know the early R22s had a straight tail cone, (ie parallel to the ground) and they angled it up for the later models. And I know the Beta has more power, higher D.A. capablity, and the Beta II has carb heat assist.

Does anyone know a more detailed model history?

I can give you model and production years as quoted from the AFE R22 Pilots Guide:

1979 - 1983:- R22 Standard
1979 - present: - R22 HP
1983 - present: - R22 Alpha
1985 - 1996 :- R22 Beta
1985 - 1996:- R22 Mariner
1996 - present: - R22 Beta II
1996 - present: - R22 Mariner II

so the alpha is still in production? and the beta isnt? :confused:

What was wrong with the original beta?

And what would the differencess between the BII and alpha be?

thanks

That timeline looks well wrong! I don't have this from any official documentation, but given the start dates (which I don't disbelieve) it should be more like:-

1979 - 1981:- R22 Standard
1981 - 1983: - R22 HP
1983 - 1985: - R22 Alpha
1985 - 1996 :- R22 Beta
1985 - 1996:- R22 Mariner
1996 - present: - R22 Beta II
1996 - 2003: - R22 Mariner II

Note that Standards all became HP models on overhaul, so there should be no Standards left flying at all.

- The Standard version had the Lycoming 0-320 A2B or A2C engine, the others had the 0-320 B2C
- The MTOW went up from 590kg initially and is now 622kg (1300 > 1370lb) although not sure which models that changed between.
- The tail boom took a slightly higher angle from the Alpha onwards ie the Standard and HP had tail rotors slightly nearer the deck

ppheli is about right: the only other things I can add is that the battery in early (up to HP's) was in the nose - this got moved to the engine bay for the Beta. I think this also was the point at which the MTOW increased from 1300 to 1370lbs.

And the Beta II got a Lycoming 360 engine, although derated to provide the same power as a Beta, for improved high altitude performace. The Beta II does use more fuel though for marginal advantage for sea level ops, so lots of operators still prefer the overhauled Beta.

The difference between the Alpha and Beta is the size of the oil cooler. The larger one in the Beta changes the available derated power from 124 to 131 (5 Minute) where the Alpha only has 124 MCP.

While the Beta II is listed in the POH as having a 160 horsepower engine, it's really a 180 horsepower engine. The reason it's listed like this is that Robinson wanted a part of the engine (I don't recall which part) made out of a different type of lighter metal. The only way Lycoming would do this was to give the engine a listed maximum HP output of 160, which Robinson didn't need anyways as it derates to 131/124. But the engine will do 180 horsepower, which is the reason the Beta IIs are more powerful. You'll notice though, that the performance for the OGE hover charts in the same for the Beta and Beta IIs, because they both use 131/124, even though a full Beta II will hover OGE higher than a full Beta most days. They do have different IGE charts though. Powerful ships.

Ocerspeeding R22 during startup
 

Hello

I'm new to this forum, this is my first post. Very interesting to read what subjects are beeing discussed here. I have a PPL(H) and 70 hours flyingtime, building time to start ATPL in spring. I haven't been able to read all posts, so I hope noone has posted this question before.

I had an incident a few hours back while starting up the R22 Beta 2 aircraft I'm flying.

It was a warm day, the OAT said 32 C. The machine had just been used before when I got in, so the engine was very warm.

When I turn the ignition key the engine just roares and goes to maximum (atleast that's what it felt like). It all happened so quickly, but I remember the manifold preassure was above 25 inches.

When I, after a maybe half a second, turned the throttle to minimum, the engine rpm wouldnt go below the yellow area. I had to, after another second, turn on the clutch to get the engine rpm down to green. When I turned on the ignition, I felt the throttle working in my hand, but I dont remember in what way or how much. The engineroar is all I remember.

The governor was on during this incident. What could have happened was the following:

I can have forgotten to set the throttle back to minumum effect after I tested it in the checklist. This would mean I started the engine with the throttle full open. If this was the case it was a very big misstake done by me. If it was set to full effect and I started it, how would the governor react? Would it calmly not allow the rpm to go "red" or what would happen?

The other scenario I'm thinking of is this: When I turned the throttle down to minimum the rpm was still very high, in the upper yellow area. This was probably because the engine was still warm. Maybe the throttle was just open a little bit, and that little extra ontop of the yellow area made the rpm go above 80% when I turned the key, and then the governor would grab it. But the rpm felt much higher than normal 104% :(

I phoned the owner of the helicopter and he assured me that since the engine was warm, the overspeed would not have done any damage.

But I'm not sure ... been going through what happened in my head many times. Maybe both the engine rpm and manifold preassure was up way above red. Or maybe the surprise of the engine going "full effect" when I expected the normal startupsound scared me so I've made it bigger than it really was.

The mechanic didnt think any action was needed because of this.

Anyone out there who has a diffrent opinion ?

Best regards

RotorSwede

Overspeeds on startup are generally caused by the throttle being left open or the enging being over-primed. Certainly not unheard of but not healthy.
Bear in mind that with the clutch disengaged the 'red line' is usually much lower than the overspeed line with rotors engaged. I don't fly the R22 but other piston helis have the start up red line at about 1600 rpm.
If I were you, I would have it fully checked out by an engineer before going further.

The R22 governor does not work below 80% or above 110%. If you started with throttle open you WILL have oversped the engine, because the governor would not have been able to respond fast enough. The rpm would have been past 110% before it could take action.

The Robinson Maintenance Manual, which you engineer will have, sets out the actions to be taken in this event. The onus is on you to declare the overspeed though, and if in doubt err on the side of caution. Undeclared overspeeds can cause catastrophic engine failures at some time in the future.

If, as you suspect, the problem was starting with the throttle open, and the engine rpm went off the gauge, then the engine will need to be stripped and inspected. Insurance will cover it, but someone will need to pay the excess.

An overspeed is an overspeed. It doesn't matter if the engine is warm or cold. Do the right thing.

RotorSwede,

It sounds to me like the throttle may have been open. It doesn't need to be open much to attain the 80% for the governor to take control...especially with no load on.

As the govenor brings the erpm up to operating rpm, it will do so very quickly. There my be a short spike above operating rpm (104%) because of this.

I am not 100% sure, but it could be possible that the govenor would be able to stop the spike going too high, if the trottle was partially open. However, maybe if the throttle was FULL open, then it might not be able to.

The important thing is that you owned up to it, and gave the decision to a more qualified person. It's hard to admit to bending a helicopter, but you may have saved someone's (may be your own) life by doing so.

Well done!

cl12pv2s

Added: ThreeBlades,

Just a point...I don't know if you are used to the Schweizer, and the limitation about Engine Overspeeds above 2000 with clutch disengaged.

If so, then this does not apply to the R22. In the Schweizer, the overspeed with no clutch is due to the destructive harmonic resonances the 'Lower Coupling Drive Shaft' experiences as it is sped without being 'secured' by the belts.

This mechanism does not apply to the R22, and so there is no similar limitation.