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DB - they are NOT hover taxiing along a road, they are hover taxiing at the side of the road as it's the line feature throughout that piece of terrain. You seem to keep typing thing that are a twist on events or contradictory and to be quite frank it's tiresome. Crab and yourself clearly don't like each other and are both highly experienced and in guessing you both were taught by Aunt Betty albeit with different coloured pyjamas. Due to the nature of this airframe featured we'll never know fully what happened but one day I'm sure the pilot will end up working with us in industry and we may discover more. Who knows; they may have learnt something from it. Too many people have crashed and died by descending low lever in shyt weather and kept doing 100kts plus. Yes you should turn around ideally, or land and wait, but humans can be stubborn and want to keep going forward. This video demonstrates a sensible option of going LOW and SLOW. Who knows; it might even sit in the back of other pilots minds know; either don't be there in the first place or go low and slow along a line feature. |
MisterBonkers, I did have some respect for DB's experience and knowledge but his repeated attacks on a crew he doesn't know anything about and his last unwarranted swipe at RAFSAR - btw he has NEVER done any SAR - mark him down as one step up from a troll on this forum.
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Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
(Post 10216728)
Al-Bert, this thread is not about the merits and achievements of RAFSAR! Which BTW I have due respect for. its a debate on the perceived risks associated with hover taxiing in fog along a public road. If you think this is perfectly acceptable that’s great but I am of the opposite opinion. However, I am wasting my time competing with the great SAR gods who think swallowing risk whole makes you all special. I will be honest with you though. I would rather fly with a seasoned HEMS pilot any day than share a cockpit with a RAFSAR pilot and their unique lack of risk awareness and to be frank, arrogance. I have experienced several RAFSAR pilots at very close quarters and to be honest, you guys don’t travel well. CRM, paradoxically, almost absent when you don a civvy flight suit. You need to learn some humility. That’s me being restrained. |
DB, now stop worrying! After all, military ops are risky by their very nature. Even if we don't allow our chaps to take risks, the other side always will - and will win. I have flown in similar conditions of very poor visibilty, as a military pilot. I vividly recall an occasion when I had to ask my crewman if the road was clear before we crossed it and we then had to hover taxy through someone's back garden, much to the surprise of a lady bringing in her washing. I won't go into the circumstances, but it was seen as a matter of great importance that we reached our destination. Would I do it again? Not as a corporate pilot - but thankfully these days I do have the option of operating under IFR with a decent fuel endurance - back then we didn't. |
Crab I have not attacked the crew. Me and you are boring everyone now because as usual you turn everything into a willy ŵaving contest instead of looking at the subject matter. Answer the question, would you have continued from reasonable VMC, up a hill, into fog, in the weedisphere, whereby your survival and that of your pax now depends on a line feature, road, along which members of the public are driving and riding? My position is there are no circumstances, SAR, HEMS, SF, CHARTER where I would consider this to be acceptable. That’s what this is about. Now what would you do and why? Now no no more from me as I just end up letting myself down. |
Does anybody have any popcorn? I finished mine & I don't want to miss the next installment. 😎
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Now no no more from me as I just end up letting myself down. There was no willy waving here, except in your imagination. |
It's worth pointing out that UK HEMS does not carry an exemption from the 500' rule, which can result in prosecution & loss of licence.
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Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
(Post 10217025)
Crab I have not attacked the crew. Unfortunately you have: both directly and indirectly.
Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
(Post 10217025)
Answer the question, would you have continued from reasonable VMC, up a hill, into fog, in the weedisphere, whereby your survival and that of your pax now depends on a line feature, road, along which members of the public are driving and riding?
What and how far do you know the 365 had transited from VMC? The nine seconds of video with the 365 show it travelling no more than 200 metres, probably 150, in a nose up attitude commensurate with coming to a hover. All with the cabin door open and a check being given from the back: maybe looking for a landing? How far do you know the 365 continued after it left the video shot? How do you know that there were pax on board?
Originally Posted by DOUBLE BOGEY
(Post 10217025)
My position is there are no circumstances, SAR, HEMS, SF, CHARTER where I would consider this to be acceptable. That’s what this is about.
As I posted before, many of us have done Mil operations in severely reduced vis, low level, Mk 1 eyeballs, day/night with full command approval. Just because your experience didn’t include such stuff is no reason to carry on about HEMS, Charter, SAR et al. All of which I’ve also done, to different rules, around the globe. |
[/QUOTE] As I posted before, many of us have done Mil operations in severely reduced vis, low level, Mk 1 eyeballs, day/night with full command approval. Just because your experience didn’t include such stuff is no reason to carry on about HEMS, Charter, SAR et al. All of which I’ve also done, to different rules, around the globe. [/QUOTE] Were you in a war? Or just swanning about UK? I give up! Too many hero’s on one thread. |
DB,
Thank You for finally putting an end to this bickering (which assumes Crab and a few others will go along with that kind offer....Me included). I look forward to more interesting discussions that do not devolve into a slanging match between folks with a lot of experience in different fields of expertise having different views on the same matter. Can we all move on to something else....please? |
Originally Posted by SASless
(Post 10217157)
Can we all move on to something else....please?
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Hi SAS I agree and apologise if I upset you by losing the plot. |
More bored than upset....as I know you from Years of reading your posts and know you have a lot of experience and knowledge but sometimes, as a lot of us do, sometimes you get wrapped up into chasing that Rabbit like a Greyhound at a Track.
You, and I include myself, are not by yourself in that trait. That is what makes for good argument here at Rotorheads. We just have to be careful how we bark while chasing that Rabbit. Now as to Robbies......they are evil wee things sent to torment those who know what Helicopters are.....and are not. Those that know Robbies but not helicopters cannot see the difference! |
Thanks SAS for your candour and understanding......I will get my coat.:{ |
One more point...on reflection, if I was lying in a snotty heap on a fogbound hill and Crab or Albert hover taxed up to save my worthless ass.....I have to concur....I would be grateful! i apologise if I was Barking too hard chasing SASs rabbit, to Crab, Albert and others. .......until the next time! DB |
Those that know Robbies but not helicopters cannot see the difference
All Robbies are helicopters but (thankfully) all helicopters are not Robbies!
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I have seen all sorts of SAR Helicopters....even Jet Rangers but I have never seen a SAR Robbie!
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To be honest it's not the daftest thing I have seen "them" do while training.
I |
Perhaps being up there in those conditions was the entire point of the exercise? c/s in contact, casualties taken, about to be overrun, need extraction NOW. I wouldn't want it to be to be the first time I had done it when I had to do it for real, and I'm sure the chaps on the ground wouldn’t either. |
Originally Posted by PlasticCabDriver
(Post 10217379)
Perhaps being up there in those conditions was the entire point of the exercise? c/s in contact, casualties taken, about to be overrun, need extraction NOW. I wouldn't want it to be to be the first time I had done it when I had to do it for real, and I'm sure the chaps on the ground wouldn’t either. |
Wow. @crab. You were very confident in you response to the comment about it not being an inexperienced crew? I suggest that as both of them finished Lynx CTT after you left 671 then you are guessing. Willy waving maybe? I know both front seat guys. In varying contexts from time being a co-Pilot to one and to me being a SQHI for the other. This isn’t SAR or HEMS any comparison is rubbish. Yes. We all got caught out in weather, sometimes with little room to manoeuvre. Now we have dashcams. @Crab : “they will have reported low flying on landing” great assumption. I wouldn’t have reported doing that, I would have hoped nobody would have seen or taken a picture. I remember flying towards the Mull of Kintyre as a pilot @100’ over the Irish Sea thinking “there is a F@&k off hill at 19.2NM “ and dying to climb....not nice. Someone , somehow flew into it...trained and geared up for the job. Would they have been better at medium level? I remember being gathered in Afghanistan at 0300 to discuss the relief of a PB under contact where out of 24 guys, in ten mins 16 were wounded with Taliban coming over the walls on the radio. The mission to launch and help was cancelled due to low visibility, they had to fight it out till the weather cleared. Awful hearing the updates...that’s reality. Flying around S Armagh postage stamp in low vis ain’t the same. Yes, many of us have done the same. I took 4 Lynx under wires because the cloud was on top of the towers (my mistake with weather) luckily......nobody filmed me, or I would need to answer to the rule book like anyone else! |
Originally Posted by Al-bert
(Post 10216665)
Double Bogey - I'm sensing that maybe you don't like Crab? I've never met Crab, though I know that he exists, since I retired just (I think) before he joined the RAFSAR force, or Wing as I prefer to remember it, but I share his belief that you just don't get it!
During the '70's I flew SH Wessex in Germany (18Sqn) then (72 Sqn) in NI before spending 22 years on 22, 202, and 78 Sqn's flying SAR Wessex and Sea Kings. I was a Flight Commander for 4 years (hence chief authoriser - but all our Captains were self authorising) in Scotland and again Flt Cdr in Wales and Falklands at various times as a Spec Aircrew pilot. We hover taxied in cloud on occasions, sometimes up mountains, sometimes at night too. It's what we did, just like our predecessors on the bloody Whirlind, (which was always safe single engine as they used to boast! That btw was a joke). I know of no aircraft loss due to this practice and the spirit and airmanship that achieved this is what made RAFSAR the best SAR outfit in the world at the time. Only the RN would disagree with that, but they were only amateurs! :E So DB, get over it and move on. My father was a crewman during your time on the SARF, he was awarded a Royal Human Society testimonial on vellum for one night...shouldn’t have been just for him but all the crew. I grew up around RAF SAR, knowing about the “Jocks Box” and all the illustrious history. In this thread, this is not the point. It wasn’t SAR or HEMS, and I’ll be corrected if it wasn’t anything more than a task to move people. Best regards Ralph |
PCD,there are plenty of military `ranges` across the country to practice in/on/over/in rain/hail/snow/fog/smoke,day/night......
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Yes, many of us have done the same. I took 4 Lynx under wires because the cloud was on top of the towers (my mistake with weather) luckily......nobody filmed me, or I would need to answer to the rule book like anyone else! |
To be fair...those that knew and worked with the great Flt Lt John Prince can testify to his skills! Rescue: Budding Rose Gramps Challice “if we come any lower we will hit the sponson” JP “Yep, we will be fine” Gramps “so if you accept that we might damage the aircraft that’s fine” ON TV!!!!! |
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
(Post 10217558)
The RAF SH rule book allowed flight under wires; we taught it to OCU students. We were encouraged to practice it routinely on SCT.
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@crab. You were very confident in you response to the comment about it not being an inexperienced crew? I suggest that as both of them finished Lynx CTT after you left 671 then you are guessing. Willy waving maybe? If you do know those involved, you will know they will both have done exactly the right thing on return - perhaps you know even less about their unit than you do about me. they will have reported low flying on landing” great assumption. I wouldn’t have reported doing that, I would have hoped nobody would have seen or taken a picture. The RAF SH rule book allowed flight under wires; we taught it to OCU students. We were encouraged to practice it routinely on SCT. This isn’t SAR or HEMS any comparison is rubbish. Anyone else want to have a go since this thread keeps turning into open season on crab@? All I have done is defend the crew. |
Can I take it you know what has happened? Or is it your MO to speak and be checked? It’s like #pprunefactcheck You are 100,000,001 million times right that as a SQHI someone may not admit it happened. For me (and I was known to be an enthusiast of the rules) I didn’t go there...in teaching or by example. Never would I, or will I do that. |
it’s not a bashing. We have met...a few times. My View is that the military will decide the most appropriate actions..we will see |
Didn’t we all get taught to go under the wires???.....but for tactical reasons as I remember. |
Is there a particular way a Stranger can properly identify a SAR God....is there a funny handshake, a manner of dress, reserved parking place at ASDA, brass name plate on the back of a Recliner in the Crew Room or something?
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Probably all of those and more Sas - (the officer J Prince seemed to regard himself as one) I have worked with some top individuals in SAR but none of them regarded themselves as SAR Gods - just blokes and girls who got the job done, often in nasty situations and I count myself fortunate to have served alongside them and perhaps imparted some additional knowledge and skills on the way.
Ralphmalph, I know enough to defend them but nothing is for the public domain - believe me or not, that is up to you. |
I’ve set aside 2 hours tomorrow to sack all my fellow ex-SAR crews as I think DB has a point. Bunch of cowboys. |
I leave the thread and it all goes quiet? |
Usually, when you enter a Room that happens!
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Originally Posted by cyclic
(Post 10217647)
I’ve set aside 2 hours tomorrow to sack all my fellow ex-SAR crews as I think DB has a point. Bunch of cowboys. |
Did anyone else hear, @24 seconds, the lad in the back say, "I've just seen a piece fall off it" ... just after the Dad says "deary me" ?
:ooh: https://tinyurl.com/yarfovo8 |
Originally Posted by SilsoeSid
(Post 10219160)
Did anyone else hear, @24 seconds, the lad in the back say, "I've just seen a piece fall off it" ... just after the Dad says "deary me" ?
:ooh: https://tinyurl.com/yarfovo8 |
It's actually the video for the "Dad Joke"
Why did the helicopter fly into the fog? It was doing a mist approach" Yuk yuk yuk yuk - I crack myself up - yuk yuk yuk .......................... |
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