Thank you for your time and effort RVDT.

Just to be clear, what is than the stated 4' 55'' countdown from the TRM (July 2006 edition, page 00-62, top right)?

I have a notice from the TR course that the AOE MCP countdown timer appears the last 5 seconds of 5' countdown, and it still doesn't make sense to me.

Phoinix,

If you are in the AEO MCP (yellow band) for longer than 4 mins 55 seconds the LIMIT will illuminate along with a GONG at 5 minutes and you now have a recorded exceedance. In this case an MGB exceedance. Keep in mind that there are no sensors in the MGB to measure this limit. It is done by the engines via the FADEC.

There are 2 cases.

1) As soon as only 5 seconds of either 5 minute (AEO MCP) 2 minute OEI or 30 seconds OEI remain you will get a LIMIT with flashing box around it. If you exceed that limit the box goes to steady state with an audio GONG.

2) Exceedance of 30 second power OEI, 5 minute takeoff power (AEO Overtorque) or Mast Moment will trigger the LIMIT signal immediately together with a GONG. Depending on the exceedance it will be recorded. In the case of the AEO Overtorque there is a transient limit, check your applicable RFM as it varies between models.

Also keep in mind that AEO MCP is only useable at V less than or equal to Vy (65 KIAS).

Thank you RVDT! All cleared out now :ok:

Question about EC-135 P1
 

Can anybody relate their experiences operating/flying a P1?

Do they have a glass cockpit? Is there a stability system on this aircraft? How is the performance/fuel burn?

Thanks for any responses.

Not a P1 but a T1, lovely aircraft (think of a twin engine Gazelle and you wont go far wrong). Analogue cockpit with a CDS dislpay for Fuel and Eng display. Fuel burn is approx 3kg per min at MAUM giving just over 2 hours use to 100 MLA.

Basic stab system on the A/C not full AFCS but nice to fly.


Shaun

You know "not the most ideal a/c" but you know nothing.

I´m sure if somebody will give you a EC135, he have to give you a type rating.

There is a "search" function at the top of the page.

But if thats too much try here - EC135 Search Result. The thread was started about 8 years ago.

I fly the P1, the instruments are as described above, it doesn't have any pitch or roll sas, only yaw sas. It is smooth in still air but a bumpy ride during the day when the thermals get going. The P2 with the pitch and roll is a whole other aircraft, much nicer to fly.
The fuel system is in Kgs on ours and we plan for around 200Kgs per hour. The two small tanks hold 49kgs and 45kgs and the main tank holds 420 / 440 depending on how much fuel you are prepared to spill. It also has a nasty habit of spitting fuel all over you no matter how slowly you fuel...dirty girl.

We find refuelling our T2 with a slight downhill slope is easy to fuel and I have not had any blowback.

Fuelling the 135.
 

SB EC135-28-005
All models S/N 0005 up to and including 0400.

During an inspection on a helicopter it was found that the hook and pile tape (Velcro) for tank attachment to the floor had become partly detached. As a consequence this can lead to a reduction in the effective usable tank volume or to a longer refuelling time (read blowback) being necessary for the filling of the tank to its full capacity.

Procedure: Defuel and remove equipment plates and inspect ceiling of the tank. If the velcro has become detached badly, you have to remove the tank, replace the existing Velcro and fit additional as per SB.

Compliance: If it is not possible to fill the normal fuel quantity stated in Section 2 of the RFM, or it takes longer than it used to, to completely fill to the full quantity in the tank, the attachments of the tank lower shell are to be inspected at the next removal of the equipment plates.

Manpower: Fitting of each hook and pile tape 0.5 man hours. (There are 25 of them - 12.5 hours) Strangely no mention of the man hours required to remove each tank so you can change them and subsequent leak check. This requires removal of the floor sections! At a guess this would be a 3-4 dayer.

I think a lawyer must write these SB's. Too bad if you if you have time against you and need all the fuel available.

The blowback is the air pockets formed around where the tank has become detached.


More info: One of the reasons for this and other mods subsequent to SN 249 were issues between pre-Production and Production aircraft. Some fuel capacity was lost due to a few subtleties and certain customers made a point of it!

Well I'll be, that sounds just like our problem, we all just figured that's how the EC was. I guess our tech has some work ahead of him.

Another strange one on the 135.

Have a look at the screws that attach the SEMA's (Smart Electro Mechanical Actuator) to the flight control runs. The number of SEMA's fitted varies with VFR SAS/IFR Autopilot configuration.

According to type certificate requirements they should have 2 methods of locking.

Part 27
The 135 clearly does not.

The 155 which uses the same or similar actuator clearly does as the attaching screws are cross drilled and wire locked.

Am I missing something? Does it mean that ONE fastener can fall out and its OK because you have three left?

There were issues recently where the fasteners used were too long. Screws were torqued OK but they had bottomed out in the thread allowing play in the control run.

see ASB EC135-22A-015 - Applicable ALL models.

RVDT,

Just out of interest are you a pilot or engineer?, you seem to know a lot of very technical info on the 135, is this info necessary for a pilot, i ask because i fly the P2 and T2 but have nowhere near the in depth knowledg of sema screws etc.

Beans,

Both! :cool:

Cool, were you a technician who decided to train to be a pilot or the opposite? I know a few techs who became pilots but i know of no pilots who decided that wanted to be techs!

Phoinix, to go back too your point about the vertical display, what ECD are talking about is the VSI to everyone else. On the 135 with the FCDS the VSI is not a pitot static instrument, but gets its information from an accelerometer in the AHRS.
So if there is a discrepency between the two VSI's; on the RCU you need to switch to the AHRS you think is correct, NOT switch the ADC.
The problem with that of course, is that you will have a GYRO caption on the CAD if you switch to 1 or gyro and P&R SAS captions if you switch to 2.:(

SR.............not entirely correct
 

quote ECD Data -

Attitude and Heading Reference Unit (AHRU)

The Attitude and Heading Reference Units AHRU 1 and 2 (Attitude and Heading Reference Units 1 and 2) use sensors to measure the primary reference flight data such as: attitude, rotational speed, (angular speed or turn rate) and acceleration values for linear acceleration of the helicopter. This data is provided across an ARINC 429 Bus for processing in electronic flight control display equipment and the autopilot computer.
The AHRUs also supply data for the inertial baro-anemometric vertical speed, as set by the ADC Air Data Computer, i.e. the measured data must be sent by the (ADC Air Data Computer) to the AHRUs.
Each AHRU consists of one inertial platform with 3 fibre optic gyros and a miniature silicon accelerometer.

Allowing for the translation to English of course!

It only performs the "I" part of the IVSI function, carried out by the vertical acceleration pump in an analogue instrument.

I don't think there is an annunciation of discrepancy between the VSI's.

I'm sticking to my original post.

Looking for a pic of EC-135 P1 w/ analog & CDS display
 

I guess there aren't too many of the older P1's around, at least not in the US.

Does anyone have a picture of a panel for the old P1 with analog gauges? I might be flying one soon, and have had no luck finding anything on the web.

As far as yaw SAS goes, I have only flown the 412 and the older S-76A with ASCS... what is the benefit of just having yaw SAS if you don't have any other channels? Just seems like an odd idea to me.

Basic dispatch is with yaw sas fitted, if you fly for a few minutes over100kts without it you will see why... a dutch roll develops that can gets sickening.

Trim Release Button
 

Any info about betteruse of Trim Release Button??, as I have been told to use it only twice on each fly, and in other Helicopters It´s neccesary to use iit frequently.Thanks in advance.

Easiest analogy..............

TRIM REL - "NOT" pushed - H500, push the stick around, reduce trim force with 4-way Trim switch.

TRIM REL - pushed - Bell 206, with friction off, push stick around, but don't let it go.

Depending on whether you have Yaw SAS, Yaw SAS P&R SAS, or Autopilot it does vary only slightly although it would/should be transparent to the operator.

In simple terms the series actuators need something to push "against" otherwise the cyclic would move and nothing else would happen. The cyclic has to be held by the force trim clutch's.

Each to their own, but I push the T/R when landing and taking off and mostly during the hover. If you have A/P ON without upper modes engaged you can push the button, set the desired attitude and release. Rinse, repeat as desired. If you have upper modes except NAV modes engaged the 4-way TRIM will steer the heading bug left or right or change ALT, A/S, or VSI as appropriate. To release upper modes you must push the A/P DECOUPLE button on the side of the grip. You may get a DECOUPLE and Master Caution depending on the software in the CAD.

Try not to push the SAS DCPL (decouple) that turns everything off. To reengage you must push the P&R // YAW RST Left, Right and Up to get it back. You might upset the Pax if you are at high speed!

The H500 doesn't have a trim release, only a 4 way beeper switch.
The Bell 206 series don't normally have a trim release at all. The OH-58 does have a trim release.

analogy- a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based.

I have been flying the 135 for 3 years and I don't think I use the Trim Release button at all only ever the collie hat, though my unconscious might do something different. On the SA365 I used to use the Trim Release button all the time but on the 135 it just makes it to floppy for my taste.

I was told though to use the T/R during autorotation in order to gain the 75kts quickly.

Here you go.

http://www.turboshaft.com/images/ec135_i-panel_old_.jpg

I use it all the time, everytime I move the cyclic.

Hey Turboshaft- thanks for the pic! :ok:

Icing?
 

Hi everyone,

very interesting thread we have here. Good to hear some experience from the rest of you 135 drivers. :ok:


While it does seem a fairly capable IFR tool (apart from speed/endurance) it does seem to be vulnerable in icing like all the rest of the small twins. :hmm:


Do any of you guys have some experience with icing in the 135 then? How well does it cope when you cannot descend/climb any more? :E


As always - any info is greatly appreciated!

Cheers

WSPS

Another question, to continue the 135 topic. I was scrolling down the VEMD's system status page the other day and came up with the TOT.T (trim) line in °C. The value was around 100°C roughly on both sides, but i could not find any explanation from Training Manual. What is this TOT trim?


Regards, Jure

Trim....................
 

Phoinix,

Both brands TM and PW have methods of trimming the TOT and Torque (Q).

The TOT thermocouples on the engine in both cases do not actually output the true value of the MGT/TOT/EGT (delete as required). When the engine is run in the test cell the real TOT is measured and the "trim" value is recorded to make the correction required.

The same applies to the torquemeter shaft. The "datum" and "slope" are compensated. Additionally the torquemeter shaft has a temperature compensation input as well in real time from one of the magnetic pickups which has a temp sensor inside it. (At least on the PW for sure).

The TM uses a "confirmation box" for each value and the PW uses data which is in memory in the Data Collection Unit. All of these units are part of the turbomachine module. They must stay with it. If the modules are changed they must be adjusted in the case of the TM or have the data loaded on the PW.

You will also find the values on the module data plate.

The reason this data is in the STATUS page is to verify that the information is being read correctly and the required values exist. Remember that the VEMD is responsible for determining the display of limits electronically. If BOTH VEMD lanes fail you will have analog data in the CAD. Corrected Q in the PW case and Delta N1 for the TM. These values come direct from the FADEC.

So this TOT.T is the preset value of TOT that corrects the measured TOT to the real value. Is the TOT.T constant to all measurements, or does it vary according to measured TOT?

This trim is something that is constant to all P&W 206B's?

Thank you RVDT, you are a true EC135 guru.

Phoinix,

The TOT.T value I assume could be linear then again it may not be!

It is different between each turbomachinery module. That is why the DCU or confirmation box needs to stay with the turbomachinery module. This data is loaded into the EECU/FADEC at power up.

The STATUS PAGE is for maintenance practice so that you can easily determine that the values have been loaded. It is also used for certain rigging functions.

RFM in pdf format for the EC-135 P1
 

Does anybody have a copy of a P1 Flight Manual in pdf format? I'll find something I can trade you for it! Thanks!

Offshore EC135
 

Is a DPIFR EC135 a realistic prospect for N. Europe offshore ops? I would have thought the disposable weight would be too low to make it viable. Anyone with any hard figures out there?

It would require wheels for a start!!!

Err...why's that then? I don't remember the 212 having wheels.

Because Aberdeen would have us believe only real helicopters have wheels.:}:}:}

In the army, wheeled helicopters were for delivering "tea and buns" and skids for "death and destruction"......then the Apache came along!:cool:

See the following article on Rotorhub this week

Bond buy EC135 for wind farm servicing missions | Shephard Group

Surely the EC135 mentioned will need to be in "Offshore fit" to perform this sort of role . Note that it will be fitted with a hoist for transfer of personnel etc , does this require approvals from the CAA inorder to perform winching Ops ? Or can it just be done ?

Thought civilian winching was frowned upon in the UK unless its by a Civvy SAR or military machine.....

135T2 will do OEI HOGE ISA 2 min rating at around 2600-2650kg which would be feasible depending on the empty weight. What would an offshore 135 weigh?