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EC135
We are in the early stages of looking for a replacement for our Police twin squirrel.
We can get good and bad feedback on the 135 from users, but asking questions about the 902 brings blank looks and a change of subject from anyone involved with it. Would anyone care to comment?? :) |
MightyGem :
Wiltshire Police have a 902 which is shared use between themselves and the Ambulance service. It flies from Police HQ in Devizes, and I think it's operated by PAS out of Staverton - sorry Gloucester. Perhaps worth speaking to them to see what they think. |
Mighty Gem:
West Midlands ASU have just taken delivery of a 902 and I'm sure they would oblige if you have any queries. As to comparisons the 902 can give you Helipad performance at MAUW up to +26 deg C which I know the 135 can't. |
The EC135 is an excellent police machine and is very similar in performance to the Mk9 Lynx - with which I suspect you are well acquainted! - AUM is never a problem and the only draw backs that are worthy of note are; the 17 hour service bulletins on the drive shaft which should be resolved this summer, the high skid which can (and does) get in the way of the camera and the poorly positioned SX5 which, again, is limited on occasion by the high skid position. These limitations can be easily overcome by the pilot.
I have just remembered the biggest drawback of all, the EC135 is restricted to 1000 ft cloudbase at night due to a lack of AP and despite what MACS say about this CAA regulation, it’s going to be a long time before it is resolved. I have not flown the 902 but from looking inside I can tell you that its looks mighty chummy!! |
Mighty Gem,
A new helicopter will look nice outside your new portacabins!!!! Thought you lot were short of money or are you keeping up with the Joneses. You already know who and where I am. We have just put the names in the hat to choose between the two above helicopters. The UEO and most of the staff here are well versed in the facts, lies and counter-lies regarding the 135/902. Get your UEO to speak with our UEO and I'm sure he will discuss the boxes and boxes of information he has gathered researching the topic. Be aware that when £2-3 million is on offer peoples ability to give a clear, concise answer to tricky answers can be affected. :rolleyes: Best of luck. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif [This message has been edited by Zeusman (edited 12 February 2000).] |
One unit flying one of these two types has had two replacement main gearboxes so far (luckily for them inside the warranty period). Unlucky?
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Zeusman
I thought you were buying a fixed wing not a new chopper - why the change of heart (and wings)? |
I have flown both and from a piots point of view I liked the MD902, lots of power and not too sensitive to wind direction.
From an operator's point of view though I would go for the 135 as it will probably have better support from Eurocopter (at least in Europe) Residual values should be better as well. I really hope the 902 does well as it is a great idea but it is going to be a brave commercial operator who buys a fleet of them. I also flew the EC 155 recently and it is an impressive machine from a pilots viewpoint. It should give the 76C+ some stiff competition but it needs a higher TOGW to really compete in the offshore market. |
What has happened to the problem of cracking on th e135 that caused the North Wales one to place a concrete weight in the bay at the back of the fuselage?
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I thought North Wales usually put a local scroat in the aircraft while they went for a brew!
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CAA's General Aviaton Occurrence list 1.11.99 - 17.1 00 reports a VSI and a laser beam problem with the EC135.
The MD900 has pitch link problems - would you trust a pilot to maintain your helicopter? It also reports the MD900 having a double salko and triple toe-loop characteristic - worrying. The Romney Marsh A109 Power looks interesting - or even more worrying. |
ANOrak :
Do you have the URL for the CAA occurence reports ? |
hydraulicpalmtree (hope the spelling's right I find it difficult to spell aviatoin).
Sorry no URL but telex: 878753 Tel: 01293 573220 [This message has been edited by ANOrak (edited 22 February 2000).] |
[This message has been edited by Zeusman (edited 02 March 2000).]
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Many thanks for all your replies. Zeusman, your bit about extended range tanks reminds me of when we fitted them to a Mk 7 lynx in Detmold as a trial. There it was sat in the hanger with both extra tanks fitted and as much fuel as could be poured in. It was only then that someone had a thought, did some sums and found it was over MAUM!! Ah Detmold... those were the days :)
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Halycon days indeed. Wasn't that particular Mk7 called the flying bomb?
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Mighty G, Hadn't you better get yourselves a decent and permenant Gaff to live in before you purchase a new stead? :)
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Just to say thanks for all your replies. CL, you don't need a nice garage when you're going to keep the ferrari parked on the drive! ;) ;)
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A 10 year old one at that with 2x V23's submitted!!!! :)
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EC135
Just spent the past week with Northwest MedStar in Spokane and have to say that the EC-135 is a great addition to the EMS ranks. The pilots seem to love it and one of the major advantages is that it can be completely shut down to blades stopped in less than one minute after landing.
According to Pratt & Whitney you only have to let the engines stabilise and then you can shut them down. Rotor brake can be applied as soon as it comes down to 50% and according to the mechanics the blades can be stopped in less than 30 seconds. That makes it much easier for crew to operate in and out of the back with blades stopped. Anyone else out there with comments on this aircraft. |
EC135 topics
Anyone got any views on whether to opt for P&W or Arrius power for an EC135?
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I think you'll find that the PW 206B2 and the Arrius 2B2 give a very similar performance with the 135. Most notable being a higher performance 30 second OEI, although I did hear that PW were having some problems with this. Neither will be certified for the 135 until at least the summer of 2002. In the meantime Turbomeca have an interim 2B1A TU45 which gives 2835 kgs helipad at ISA +5(no 30 second OEI though) whereas the 2B2 gives the same but up to ISA +10. PW don't have such a good interim giving either AUW up to 2630 or 2720 dependant on certification time. Hope this helps!
[This message has been edited by Marco (edited 16 March 2001).] |
You can strap a Arriel, Artouste or an Arrius engine on my back any day!!!
------------------ Better to be up there wishing you were down here than be down here wishing you were up there! |
Thanks for the input. Any more comments on (a)reliability and (b) shut down times?
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a) both very good I'm led to believe
b) PW might be slightly faster than TM but both a lot quicker than Allison. PW, a rumour only, may not be supporting the 135 in UK. |
EC 135 Operators
The Irish Gardai will receive a EC 135 in July 2001.It is envisaged that Air Corps pilots will operate the helicopter. It is now apparent that the empty equipped weight of the aircraft is 2126 Kgs..the all up weight is 2720 kgs with the high skid option as selected. Therefore the prospective operator has serious concerns regarding the endurance of the aircraft. When you add in the standard crew of one pilot and two observers...not much room for juice (fuel burn is approx 3kgs/min...)
By my calculations that leaves approx 1HR:35MIN to DRY tanks !! (The helicopter is fitted with avionique nouvelle + flir + skyshout+ nitesun) The Bavarian Modular Police fit was discounted and the MHL fit selected. Is this a true reflection of 135 EEW and endurance?? I believe that the AUW may be increased to 2835 for high skids in the near future..?? ------------------ |
Our local police helo is a 135, and according to their website
www.emasu.com it can operate for up to 3 hours. |
I don't know about the weight difference of Avionic Nouvelle but the first wave of police 135s (ie. Central Counties, Chiltern etc) have the same role equipment as the Garda machines. Their basic masses are around 1912 kg.
The police machine I have flown normally fly around with 440kgs of fuel, which at 180-200kgs per hour gives a usable endurance of 1hr 50mins with sufficient spare mass to take an additional person (ie. 4 total) from the outset. If the additional seat is sacrificed (eg. on a pre-planned long search) 2hrs 30 mins plus reserves can reasonably be expected. All the new 135s will be delivered with the 2835kgs modifications embodied so the picture gets even better. |
The SP IFR 135's average at around 2050 - 60 kgs. With 2835 kgs you've >2 hours at helipad ISA +10 with 2B2 or 206B2.
I think you will that the Irish a/c has the 'kitchen sink'. Something to do with the Irish Air Corps and Gardai having separate ideas about equipment on the a/c. |
Bavarian Police retrofit EC135 fleet with P&W 206B2 engines
Pratt & Whitney Canada
Press Release: <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">The Bavarian Police have decided to outfit their nine EC135 helicopters with PW206B2 engines, starting in September 2001. This represents the first engine retrofit program for the Eurocopter EC135. Karlheinz Maier, Technical Director for the Bavarian Police, said "We have extensive experience with Pratt & Whitney Canada and trust that the PW206B2 engine will bring added capability to our aircraft." The P&WC-powered EC135 helicopters were delivered to the Bavarian Police in 1997. They are used for 24-hour police and EMS duties, which include special winch, night flying, FLIR, camera and night vision goggles training in the Bavarian Alpine region. In March 2001, the fleet collectively reached 10,000 flight hours. The PW206B2 is the latest growth variant of the PW200 engine family. Thermodynamically rated at 708 SHP continuous OEI (One-Engine Inoperative) and 816 SHP 30 second OEI, the PW206B2 engine will enable the EC135 to operate at higher Category "A" take-off weights, namely 2.835 tonnes up to 25 degrees C at sea level (ISA +10 degrees C conditions). The PW200 engine family powered over 70 per cent of all new light-twin helicopter deliveries in the year 2000, making P&WC the market leader in this segment. P&WC, based in Longueuil, Quebec, is a world leader in aviation engines powering business and regional aircraft and helicopters."</font> [This message has been edited by Heliport (edited 17 May 2001).] |
Heliport,
Is the PW 206B2 the same as the PW 207E ??? I seem to remember that the numbers for the PW range for the MD 902 and the EC 135 are the same engine with different names. The need for better hot/high perf A limits being the main reason, but Eurocopter seem to be bent on using a different name for the same engine???? |
The PW 206B2 is a flat rated 207 especially for the EC135. I believe you'll find it has a 30 second OEI as will have the TM 2B2.
This is not the case with the latest 902's fitted with PW 207E. I believe it is the PW 207D which has the 30 second OEI capability, which is not fitted to the UK Explorer fleet. |
To Flir: They are all essentially the same engine, but the reason for the A,B,C,D and E designations has to do with the type of fuel control (Fuel Management Module or Fuel Metering Unit), output shaft speed and angle, type of engine management (Data Collection Unit or Q and MGT Trim Boxes), etc. Eurocopter's engines will always be different for the 135 because the output shaft is at 26º in that ship.
Application and takeoff Horse Power is as follows: 206A 621 HP MD900 FMU type fuel control MGT and Q trim boxes 206B 431 HP EC 135 Similar to 206A with FMM fuel system DCU instead of trim boxes 26º angled output drive for EC application Lower output shaft speed Fire detection and engine indicating hardware supplied by Pratt 206C 561 HP A109, Kazan Ansat Similar to 206A with FMM Fuel Control DCU 207D 710 HP B427 FMM and DCU Shrouded FMM Engine indicating hardware supplied by Pratt. 206E 646 HP MD902 Similar to 206A with FMU DCU Upgraded fuel pump FCU shroud. This list is a couple of years old so there will certainly be changes now, but you get the picture. |
To marco and CTD,
Thanks for the figures gentlemen, it now makes some sense - although I wonder if the aircraft makers could ever agree to use the same numbers??? |
Pratt & Whitney deliver first PW206B2-powered EC135
Press Release
Longueuil, Quebec, August 20, 2001 Pratt & Whitney Canada Corp. is pleased to announce that the first Eurocopter EC135 helicopter powered by its new PW206B2 engine was delivered to the Swedish National Police at a ceremony held at Tullinge Airport in Stockholm on August 10. "We are delighted to see the first PW206B2 engine enter into active service," said Eric Gizard, Vice President, Turboshaft Engines, P&WC. "The PW206B2 is the first growth engine designed for the EC135 helicopter and will further reinforce P&WC’s position as the leader in the light-twin helicopter market." The EC135 delivery ceremony was attended by Sten Heckscher and Lars Nylen, Chief of Police and Chief of Investigation, respectively, of the Swedish National Police, Dr. Siegfried Sobotta, Executive Vice President, Eurocopter, and Werner Kantsperger, P&WC Manager, Customer Service Center (CSC)-Ludwigsfelde, Germany. It was followed by a flying display of the new helicopter. The PW206B2-powered EC135 helicopter was granted LBA certification on July 10; full Category "A" certification is expected in October. The Swedish National Police are scheduled to receive another six EC135 helicopters powered by the PW206B2 engine over the next two years. The PW206B2 engine is built from the PW207 engine series power section, coupled with an angled reduction gearbox of the existing PW206B engine. It introduces a new 30-seconds One Engine Inoperative thermodynamic power rating at 608kW (816shp), an increase of 11 per cent over the PW206B engine. As a result, the EC135 will be able to operate at higher Category "A" take-off weights. The PW200 family of engines also powers the Agusta A109E Power, the Bell M427, the MDHI MD Explorer, as well as the Kazan Ansat. As of the second quarter 2001, 230 PW200-powered helicopters operated in 34 countries around the world, with over 345,000 hours of operating time. Key segments include the Emergency Medical Services (EMS), law enforcement and corporate markets. In 2000, PW200 engines powered over 70 per cent of new light-twin helicopters deliveries, making P&WC’s PW200 engine the market leader in this segment. P&WC provides operators with a Total Customer Support program. This plan was developed over the years in support of P&WC’s fleet of gas turbine engines worldwide. It comprises a network of field support representatives, factory-based technical support, a 24-hour help line for spares and logistics support, dedicated customer training centres, and a worldwide service network. P&WC, based in Longueuil, Quebec, is a world leader in aviation engines powering business and regional aircraft and helicopters. The company also offers advanced engines for industrial applications. P&WC’s operations and service network span the globe. In 2000, sales were in excess of $2.4 billion Cdn. P&WC is a subsidiary of United Technologies Corporation, a high-technology company based in Hartford, Connecticut. |
EC 135
Any ideas why the rotor goes the wrong way (for a French helicopter that is)?. .Just curious.. .http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/aircraft/3flypigs.gif
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This has been the subject if many threads is the past . The most logical if i recall correctly is to do with the direction of rotation of the Engine. One of the most interesting was the story that after the war the allies took bits of the twin rotor German helicopter and the French got the blades that went the opposite way to the ones the US got.
Sorry if the question was directly related to the EC135 , it is German helicopter with a French tail , started out as the Bo108 and gained a fenestron after the merger. [ 21 January 2002: Message edited by: widgeon ]</p> |
Thanks for that. The German connection would seem to fit the bill, as the BK 117 and Bo 105 go the same way.
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Widgeon's version is the one cited in texts. The FW lateral twin rotor helicopter was available, and the French got half of one with the clockwise rotor (trivia, but I think that was the left hand rotor?) The EC-135 is a fenestron-ed BO-108, so the German forward half met the French rearward half. I wonder if the fan is an upside down (reverse thrust) one from another product??
[ 24 January 2002: Message edited by: Nick Lappos ]</p> |
Because France is in the northern hemisphere - dimbo :)
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