Did they define duty time ? Having read through the papers I presume the need for more pilots will increase drasticaly after April 13 !?

Quick note on the European WTD.

Leave: the minimum leave to be taken is 28 days, not 20.

The fines of £1000 for each offence are applicable to both the individual and the company.

The WTD came into effect on 13th April 2004, not this year.

There are to be no opt outs, as far as I know.

There is some discussion at the moment between the lawyers in the DfT, CAA and various employers as to some of the definitions laid out in the Statutory Instrument (SI). This may lead to a revised version being issued in due course. It is possible that some current CAA variations may be permitted, ie: counting standby time between 2200 and 0800 at half rate (a 24 hr duty, without night callout, being logged as 19 hrs).

The draft SI was actually published in 2003, so all the European companies, including those in Eire, have had more than ample notice of the changes. Few, if any, seem to have addressed the situation until now, thus creating a panic, as usual.

bondu :rolleyes:

Hi Bondu

I have spent a fair bit of time trying to find a definition of the ' 4 working weeks.' The only one I have found so far is on the DTI website Here
In it it explains the version I gave above, however if you have any better source I would be grateful for the info.

Regards

TeeS

Hummingfrog -

The bouncing around was to a large extent my choice as I enjoyed the variety. I was really just trying to make the point that I had experience of loads of rosters that could never compare with equal time on/off. I was out there around 1991 to 1993 if memory serves.

Cheers

Tees

4 working weeks = 20 days plus the 8 statutory holidays (bank holidays) = 28?

Don't care what anyone says, flying is better than driving a desk and you get more time off too.

SARGOD
Yep you were right I was not one of the "few" but i am certainley not bitter and twisted about it. The good thing about jigsaw is that with the amount of new positions its creating it is leaving a vacuum of jobs to be filled by the people who are not "the few"!!
The comment of a little bit of knowledge being dangerous well the whole jigsaw discussion seemed to be getting quite a bit stale and as you can see by the subsequent discussion on the subject ..................well aim achieved i think !!

PS: G8 handle mate!



Jigsaw is not the "bloody holy grail" of this business but Bond OS are a breath of fresh air and thats got to be good. The subject of duty hours and the EWD i feel will run and run, as will the amount of new employees when they experience life on a rig...even if it is only 2 weeks!!

Hummingfrog

I can confirm that TeeS is "very, very old"

Just keeping an eye on you little bro'.

That's it - back off to Jetblast !!!

TimS

TimS

Does your Mum know you are surfing the Internet!!

TeeS;-)

boomerangben

Sadly, if you look a little deeper, you will find that the supposed 8 bank holiday days can be included in the 20 Statutory days.

Tees

Just heard a crewman from CHC Ireland got offered a Jigsaw position, salary of 31K + 8K offshore allowance = 39K. (UK Pounds) Is that good, bad or average money for SAR crewies in the UK?

Question for the offshore drivers...Also how expensive is housing in Aberdeen? Obviously there's good and bad areas in Aberdeen, I was just wondering average prices...many thanks:ok:

Apparently Bond are recruiting pilots for Jigsaw again.

After having got their happy few together it seems that some are less than happy and have gone elsewhere. It seems that the reserve team are now being offered places in the first squad with P2’s being offered their first command on Jigsaw. Is that really a good idea? :-(

The original 9 Bond co-pilots recruited (with compulsory posting to Jigsaw after one year) at the end of last year are down to 6 and new candidates being interviewed.

It probably doesn’t help that Bristow are recruiting and that Scotia despite losing the Talisman contract are showing no signs of staff reductions.

There’s a rumour that some of their engineers are none to happy either.

Should be an interesting year – new project, potentially high staff turnover and new operating procedures. Makes you wonder when and how they’re going to train all these guys in time for the great opening. BP must be slightly nervous about all this after all the hype. Still, time will tell.

Jigsaw
 

You obviously work for Bristows and only have an interest in putting down Bond. Is it because they are coming back in strength. Be a real man and use your name.

jbrereton

Is anyting I've commented on untrue?

Are Bond recruiting for Jigsaw pilots again?

Have some of the co-pilots they've recruited gone elsewhere?

Are current P2's being offered command on jigsaw?

Jigsaw
 

Why do you not ask there chief pilot instead of trying to dirty there name with rumour.

Because I'm posting on a Professional Pilots RUMOUR network not in the National Archives!

Jigsaw
 

You really are a bundle of joy are,nt you. Are you saying that someof the pilots Bond uses for Jigsaw will not be up to the job, nasty implication. Best you remain anonymous.

Bond are recruiting more pilots
Good for them it will keep the likes of you in a job. Be happy.

There’s a rumour that some of their engineers are none to happy either. When have you known an engineer to be happy? You do not know many engineers do you?

Rumour is fine but mischief making is not.

Once again do you work for Bristows?

winchop
 

the pay for uk crewies is very competative, it is quite a bit more than u have heard, there are also lots of other benefits on offer which the competitors do not consider a requirment. therefore quite a lot of people are interested in this company, pilots and crewmen alike. it is hiring from a wide range of proffesions for winchmen giving lots of expertise in different fields, the winchops are all ex military. it is a new venture with lots of pessimistic onlookers hoping that it will fall flat on it's face, however with such a dynamic and youthfull yet experienced workforce this company will do very well. a few cases of sour grapes me thinks :{

Hi JB how is life in retirement?? Missing the old Puma;)

I think you are remembering the "old Bond" the new one seems a little different.

Jigsaw is good for all commercial pilots because it brings new positions to the market place. I would not however be surprised if they have a high turnover of pilots after the initial selection.

This is because while on paper the offshore life looks great. Stable roster, 13 days off each month reality is different once you start doing it. There is great difficulty in getting pilots to volunteer to work offshore once they have experienced it. The extra money is poor - one days overtime onshore brings in the same amount per month. The disruption to one's social/family life is high. Living conditions are poor on the rig etc.

While Jigsaw is "simple" SAR with only the requirement to be capable at day/night wets and decks it will not be easy. If all the kit is working correctly your average line pilot with about 20hrs training should be able to do it. Unfortunately SAR usually happens when everything is against you. Weather, sea conditions and sods law says the doppler unlocks. That is when things can go wrong very quickly if you don't have a sackful of experience to fall back on. So I would be surprised if low time commanders were offered Jigsaw positions. ( if I was rearcrew I would be alarmed::))

I work offshore and have over 9 yrs of RAF SAR exp and due to age:{ have not been head hunted as per the original advert!! I would also not accept the rumoured package offered of only 2 weeks leave. I spend 75% more time away from home than a Puma line pilot why would I accept less leave than him:(

I will follow Jigsaw with interest and I do hope it works as it will be good for everybody. It can't, however, be done on the cheap and I am sure Lord Melchet will do his best:ok:

HF

Guessed who I am (think Puma Course;) )

angelonawire

Check your pm's please...


jbrereton

here here...

winchop
 

you have a PM



hummingfrog


i do agree in part about your comments on SAR, however do remember that a vast majority of the actual skill and danger aspect is taken on by the back seat, and any winchop worth his salt could keep a monkey hovering over a moving deck.....

please don't take that as an insult to pilots only some pilots do tend to forget that SAR is a TEAM effort and that you always remain nice and cosy sat in your seat doing a bit of high speed poling, don't take it the wrong way, I take my hat off to a good SAR pilot, the definition of which is usually somebody who has the ability to trust the abilities of his crewmates and not to think he is the only one in the crew that matters

most of the guys hired are ex navy, two weeks on a rig...chicken feed!! we have spent more time than that on the crest of a wave...ahoy me old shippers!

did u guess that i am a backseater???

i love pilots really x x x

Pilots are wonderful, but I couldn't eat a whole one....;)

winchop
 

hello down there

It was 35 Deg C down here today, do you think I'll feel the cold up your way?!?:}

angel, check your pm.....

winchop
 

windchill was -17 celcius last night and snowing !!

you'll be fine with a few single malts to warm your cockels!, summer time usually up to high twenties, can reach thirties nice dry climate, lots of sheep in shetland to keep ewe warm!!!

Hey, I'm an Aussie, not a Kiwi!!

Humming Frog:

quote:

While Jigsaw is "simple" SAR with only the requirement to be capable at day/night wets and decks it will not be easy. If all the kit is working correctly your average line pilot with about 20hrs training should be able to do it.

I would love to know where 20 hours of training could possibly be enough for even "simple SAR" In my experience of SAR which goes back to 1984, I would never describe any SAR as simple. I personally find it quite difficult and during the night season it has never got any easier in 21 years. However, I do agree with you that experience can extricate you out of the mire when things start to go wrong. Personally, I wish the crews on the Bond contract all the best, but I will always remain wary of a chief pilot that quotes SAR as not Rocket Science. Indeed it is not but it is the most difficult flying on the North Sea. In my case the most difficult flying I have ever done and that includes pointed things with their arse on fire.

Back to your quote, what happens when a fishing vessel is sinking close by the offshore machine on a s....ty winters' night. Is your "simple" SAR crew going to turn it down? I hope not but if they have only 20 hours training, they better had.

Happiness is hovering over a small deck in a force 12!

Tuckunder.

P.S. I forgot to add: the doppler will help get you to the scene but once you commence winching over a deck you might as well turn it off. Manual only I'm afraid.

Tuckunder

I couldn't agree more. Anybody who says SAR isn't difficult has never done SAR.

Perhaps that 20 hours was a typo and should read 20 hours per month - but that is after they are trained of course!

RI

tuckunder
 

howdy, i hope you are not stirring things, how is the pole dancing going?

p.s am i doing a good job of stirring it?

angelonawire

I agree with
But
Which part of Aberdeen, Shetland or the North Sea would that be then?

Tuckunder

I grabbed the figure of 20 hrs out of the air but is it unrealistic? I am talking about experienced pilots not abos. My Seaking conversion and SAR course at Culdrose was 90hrs and this included type conversion, cliff and situation winching, mountain flying, deck landing practice all day and night, along with wets/drums and decks. I estimate less than 20hrs of my 90hrs was on wets and decks.

I had flown SAR in the Wessex but this was really only day VFR.

The term "simple" didn't refer to the act of wet/deck winching but more to the fact they wouldn't be required to do the full range of SAR tasks.

As for the quote by Lord Melchet enough said:(

SAR is a challenging and demanding role which I thoroughly enjoyed but too many people try and attach mystique to it. Running In's comment sums that up. :yuk: Even the RAF didn't give us 20 hrs a month to train with.

As I said in an earlier post I wish them success but it will be a steep learning curve for them and if the wrong people are recruited or selected then it has the recipe for disaster and BP will expect management heads to roll.

HF

(latest offshore rumour is that they will have to be in immersion suits while on shift and take meals in their office;) )

If the wrong people have been recruited then they could completely damage the reputation of existing UK SAR crews.

And would someone please tell me that they haven't recruited a painter and decorator and 2 rampy's as winchmen who will get 1 months training before the project starts? :(

I hope that that is another wind up like the "any winchop worth his salt could keep a monkey hovering over a moving deck.." comment. I take it that was just stirring because I can't believe anyone would be that stupid.

HF,

I appreciate that 20 hours has been plucked out of the air. However, if you think that is enough for a "line pilot" to convert to SAR then you are in cloud cuckoo land. I too did the Culdrose Course and then spent 10 months at a Scottish base (?) before my command. This was as a FJ cross over specifically posted to SAR for a quick command. Your comment about only spending 20 hours on wets and decks during the course is correct however, were you then a capable SAR pilot? I certainly wasn't. The only way that you can become a safe SAR commander is by experiencing very iffy conditions with someone holding your hand. Then when you are let lose you frighten yourself a few times with the rest of the crew still holding your hand until eventually you feel capable of having a look at any situation. This cannot be done in 20 hours.

I agree SAR is challenging and rewarding but I certainly do not imply that it has mystique attached. However, it does require bucketloads of experience to operate safely no matter what your background.

Happy hovering

Tuckunder

chopperman
 

a reply to you scoffing at my optomistic climatology, my comments were definately not about shetland nor the north sea but inland aberdeenshire is surprisingly warmer than the coast, most summers do reach mid twenties, but yes i do agree thirties is a long shot, and being on the east coast of the uk it does benefit from a drier and warmer climate than the west, (fohn effect), after living in cornwall for six years and expecting lovely weather, while infact it pissed down for most of the time, aberdeenshire's climate is rather pleasant.

anyway if queeny and three past royal generations have relished spending their summers here then who am I to argue?

I eagerly await your amusing retort!

x x x

NIGHT WATCHMAN

I suppose " a monkey" was a bit of an audacious description, I should like to withdraw that and replace with "reasonably competant helicopter pilot"....and what would be so bad about training a painter and decorator to be a winchman, I think the training will be a little more than a month and since most SAR captains are able to fly unassisted into force 12 gales whilst simultaneously winching twenty needy survivors from a pitching vessel into the aircraft and performing open heart surgery....who needs any backseaters

besides we are all just ballast easily replaced by 200lbs of fuel

I hope your over inflated reputation doesn't burst.....x x x

Tuckunder

You are not comparing like with like. I understand you were a FJ pilot with no helicopter exp before Culdrose. I would not expect you to be ready for a SAR command straight away. The RAF had the same routine. My 1st SAR tour was on the Wessex and I had already done 2 SH tours so could fly the a/c I just had to have some brush up work on hovering over the sea and high cliff winching. Then it was on shift and away.

It is the decision making process which is the hardest to teach. When is it safe to go on a job and when it is unsafe. The first turn back being the hardest.

I hope that the pilot's chosen to go on Jigsaw with no past SAR experience will be experienced N Sea Commanders who will have been used to working in the wx that the N Sea can throw at you.

Angel on a wire.

I thought rearcrew were worth 250lbs of fuel:ok:

HF

jbrereton

First you tell me I shouldn't spread rumours and phone the chief pilot and then you say rumours are fine! Make up your mind!

You also suggest that my only interest is putting Bond down. It's not. It's about maintaining a level of professionalism and experience in a difficult job.

The only one who is putting Bond down is angelonawire. The sad thing is he doesn't know it. He is doing more damage to the Bond jigsaw team than anybody else on this thread!

True Tuckunder may have been on his first tour as a helo pilot and he didn't get his SAR Command straight away (about a year I think), but he did have a lot of airmanship to fall back on, even if it had been flying horrible pointy things with their backsides on fire.

I was also a first tour Sea King pilot (and first tour anything). It was 15 months before I had my SAR command with a total logbook time of 850 hours. The point I am making is that you do not need all those tours or hours under your belt, but you do need a good grounding in your specialist task prior to being a commander. How many of the BOH guys will get decent experience in the job before being a SAR commander? I expect there may be some as I believe that there is at least one ex-RAF SAR commander being employed. How many civil guys have decent Sea King or S61 SAR experience? It will be hard for anyone having only done Day VFR SAR in their past life.

As for training a winchman in 20 hours to do the job? Well, it's been done. The guys have the skills to get someone out of the water, but only at a basic level. What they don't have, which is what military and civil MCA crewmen have, is an awareness of what is going on around them in the aircraft, the ability to know when to talk and when not to, when to help out, etc. That all comes from time in the air and experience. Military crewmen get that before they go anywhere near SAR training.

It will be difficult for them to pick up that experience quickly especially with the limited amount of flying they will do offshore.


Oh and HF, the RAF did give us more than 20 hours to use to train each month, it's just you always sat in your office, so the rest of us used them for you ;)

return to sender
 

I don't know how you've worked that one out....pot/kettle!
I'm not dissing bond, I'm simply toning down a few pilots ego's

Jigsaw
 

Folks, havin been an avid reader of this thread for some time now i felt now was the time for my first post on this subject. I feel that i speak with a level of knowledge clearly lackng in some of the regular contributers. Why? Because i was interviewed for a crewmans position and i am a current SAR operator!! I was offered a job but regretfully had to turn t down due to family reasons. Would you like to know the interview progress? Well here goes.
1. A stringent fitness test.
2. A written exam
3. Two Interviews
4. A swim test involving cas rescue etc

A long and rewarding day built by an operator who was something of an unknown to me untill i turned up. I was able to return to my unit and quash all the daft rumours circulated by gossips.

What would i have had to do for a coastguard interview????
Answers on a postcard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

doorstopper
 

turn up! the job's yours!

BHPS

If I recall correctly we had about 15hrs training per pilot/month made up of:-

1hrs day each for of- wets, drums, cliffs, sits, decks, IF and GH = 7hrs

1hrs night each for each of - wets, drums, cliffs, sits, decks night ccts = 6

Then a quarterly requirement of 2 hrs for Mtn Flying and Nav.

The rearcrew had the same less GH and IF

If you were doing more than this you were very very naughty:ok:

The only reason I was in my office was to make sure you all went night training when Coronation St was on:E

I wonder what monthly training Bond will give the guys to keep current??

HF

angelonawire:
".....it is hiring from a wide range of professions for winchmen....."

As with most things there is usually more than one way to skin a cat and perhaps Bond's approach to crewing Jigsaw will prove adequate for the task.

However, I can't help questioning the wisdom of employing ab-initio winchmen who come from various non-aviation backgrounds to crew a high profile North Sea SAR contract.

If the winchmen employed are already qualified helicopter crewmen then please tell me to shut up. But can anyone in the know (perhaps angelonawire himself) tell us the backgrounds of the Jigsaw winchmen?

Correct me if I'm wrong (and no doubt someone will), but, wasn't the aim of Jigsaw to use Helicopters to supplement/replace some of the standby vessels that BP use around their platforms? These helicopters to be available should some poor soul fall overboard from a platform or an emergency abandonment be required. I don't recall (again maybe I missed something) that they were ever intended to replace/supplement the military or coastguard rescue crews in any way.
If this is the case, then, while the crews will obviously require some very comprehensive SAR training, it will not need to be quite so extensive as that given to coastguard or military SAR crews.

Chopperman.