Wizzard,

"Scoop 'em up and drop 'em off might be the order of the day"

Have you ever tried to do manual wet winching at night, or even a basic deck?

Thought not!




running in

seems to me like some people thought they would be able to walk into these jobs and are now miffed that they are being rejected.

miitary training, good as it is, is not the only way.

serf

I think many of the concerns are real and not based on being "miffed".

Either the Jigsaw crews are competent SAR crews or they are not. It is like being pregnant, either you are, or you are not. You can't be half pregnant!

For a winchman dangling on a wire over a pitching deck, either the commander is competent or he/she is not. Half competent will result in an accident or an unsuccessful rescue.

ri

Running in, you ask a question.
Then you answer it yourself!


What a presumptuous fellow you are ;)

Wiz

I had the luck to be on board a SAR helicopter called to rescue a fifty year old man from a rig in the north sea roughly an hours transit from base.

The casualty had suffered suspected multiple heart attacks and was at the end of a .5km long platform.

we arrived at the overhead to be told that we were not to winch the casualty from the walkway connecting the rig complez.

we were told that the casualty was to be evacuated via a Dauphin that was on the far side of the complex.

the cas had to endure a transit up and down stairs............over a long distance...........and then pulled up the vertical steps to the helideck.

whilst this was going on i watched as the Dauphin crew re-rolled the seats of the aircraft to take the cas to shore.

said cas then boarded the a/c without a defib or paramedic and was flown to shore......

Assistance was offered to the rig but was refused over and over again......all this after we had made a 45 min transit to pick the guy up?????

our only thoughts were that the company was trying to either reduce costs or incident signals?????

Ralph

Could that have been a cost related decision that backfired ? After all, the aircraft had already mobilised. Surely an incident report would have had to be raised, even if it was internal whether or not the guy was recovered by a SAR crew or the Dauphin ?

Mountainman - he asked how they planned to keep the aircraft deiced during the winter so that they could achieve their 10 minute readiness state - the reply was that it was an engineering issue but gave no indication as to how it would be addressed.
He also asked how the aircraft would be kept pointing into wind in an area that could go from 40 kts in one direction to 50 kts in another in a very short period - the answer was the same but hinted that an engineer would be sent out with an electric handler/dolly in the 50 kt wind to move it. I don't know how many engineers will be on the rig to support the helicopter but I will be surprised if it is more than 2.
As for the HSE requirements, 21 wet survivors from a dark and stormy sea in 30 minutes? Not without a very well trained, practised and fit winchman and even then he'd be f**ked at the end of it and certainly in no shape to give medical assistance. Even doing them as double lifts from the comparative safety of a large dinghy would take 30 minutes.

I have heard similar rumours to 2STROPS about the standard of pilots. Evidently some of the Bolkow Captains from the Lighthouse and Scatsta operations are going to be SAR Commanders as they have "underslung load winching experience and also able to winch pilots (the sea types) on vessels".

Hmmm, from what I can remember commercial winching is very regulated and restricted compared to what is allowable for SAR. If my memory serves me correctly, commercial winching has to take place at a height no higher than 10ft and there must be no obstructions laterally for 15-20ft. It's been a while so I could be wrong.

Hope some chap from the CAA with SAR experience is going to keep a close eye on this project. The more rumours I hear, the more I think it is a big fudge by BP to their workforce, and nothing like was envisaged from BP blurb I saw. There are now too many rumours for some of them not to be true.

RK

You have to feel sorry for the guys offshore, it's kinda like being sold the latest and best double glazing and then a guy turns up and fits a piece of perspex!

Thanks for the reply Crab.

I know the trial team came up with solutions to a lot of the "issues" that arise when you base an aircraft offshore without protection, but I don't suppose they will be too forthcoming with any of them now.

I have to agree with Night Watchman, the offshore workforce must be wondering what they have agreed to.

The Jigsaw trial guys were used to literally "sell" the concept to the people offshore. A lot of the trial flights were done next to BP platforms, often with that platform's safety rep on board to observe how things were done, and I understand that the crews were then expected to shut down on the deck and give a presentation on what they had just achieved.

As for the 30 minute standard, I do know that all the backseat crew on the trial were qualified and experienced winch operators. I beleave the idea was that they could swap roles halfway through the evolution if the acting winchman became tired, but I'll stop now in case I am accused of nurse bashing again.

:ouch:

With the last quarter profits BP announced today you would think that they could afford a credible rescue and recovery system!

ri

I heard a very interesting rumour a few days ago regarding the the chief pilot of the Jigsaw trial.

Apparently he's been approached by Bond and asked if he would "jump ship" and set up their SAR operation for them.

As I know him personally ( He's currently the CP of the SAR operation that Bristows set up in the Netherlands with the original Jigsaw trial aircraft) I phoned him and asked him if this was true.
He didn't confirm or deny this, but his reply was brief and typically diplomatic, and I'll quote him (with his permission I might add)
"I have no plans to leave Holland or Bristows"

What does that say about BP's plans, and Bond's need to get the right people?
Surely Bond would have pulled out all the stops to get him, if for no other reason than to give credibility to the implementation phase?
To my knowledge, NOBODY from the original trial team is leaving Bristows to join Bond

Perhaps he has developed a taste for windmills, cheese and ham, chocolate sprinkles and a complete lack of scenery, but I definately got the impression that he was not the least bit keen on Bond's slant on SAR.

Interesting........
:hmm:

Why would the CP go for less money ??:D

Mountainman

Do you know if any of the Jigsaw trials team (now Den Helder) crewmen have been approached by Bond? From what you say, it would seem that if they have been approached then they aren't planning to leave Bristow either!

I ask because Bond stated that those who were selected for interview would be notified by the end of October and as yet I don't know of anyone who has.

Any info................??

Hi Juan Smore,

I've just checked with my crewmen sources, and as far as they are aware, one of the ex trial crewmen now in Den Helder was approached and wasn't interested, one has applied and hasn't heard anything and one has just left the unit to go to Portland (still Bristows).

Since my last post I've also heard that the CP was offered big bucks to swap cap badges which is contrary to what Nig' Ex'pt Outlaw says.......who knows?

Would anyone like to confirm that Bond are now talking about slashing the offshore allowances?
If they are, then I wouldn't be surprised as they have a track record of doing this.

When they took over the Irish SAR units from Irish Helicopters ( Bristows in all but name) they promised the staff the world if they joined them and promptly denied everything (Baldric) when they did !

Maybe not so "new" Bond after all.

Montainman, I stand (or sit) corrected, wasn't aware he'd been offered big dosh to jump ship, thought he'd be getting the standard rate with a small CP allowance which is fairly standard practice in the oilpatch (the amount is never enough to compensate for the resulting brain damage !!).

Until the full policy/conditions of service etc are known and in writing it doesn't seem like a particularly prudent move yet....................:ok:

Mountainman

Many thanks for posting the info so quickly; you must be at work! If the Den Helder CP & crewman weren't interested (apart from personal reasons) then maybe it speaks volumes about what is or isn't going on up there.

And the offshore rates should be a large part of the attraction of the job, not a deterrent!

We wait and see with interest.

Hmm....... Maybe cheap, but perhaps not so cheerful:sad:

Reading between the lines, Bond is not going out of its way to attract experienced SAR people. Also from what crab said they don't like being asked difficult questions!

Do they know what they are doing?

Will the CAA & HSE roll over and let Bond do their version of "SAR"?

Prehaps there lords and masters at bond and BP should read the citation for the recent SAR award bestowed on an RN crew in cornwall.
A real SAR outfit who knows what they are doing!!!

NLTTGITWOAGS,

I agree, and they should also read the citation for the Bristow/MCA crew who won the Bill Deacon Award the year before for a difficult rescue in foul conditions at maximum range.

ri

And many other citations/awards gained by civvie SAR crews through the years. True professionals.

....and very nearly ran out of fuel.....

Ahh , you misunderstand SAR, the skill comes in not running out of fuel, and getting an award. Run out of fuel and you in the S...!!!!

Considering a job move, I have heard about this offshore mallarchy but not taken much notice until recently. So just what does it offer a Puma qualified ex RAF SAR pilot? Is it worth a job move? It seems the latest comments suggest it may be more trouble than its worth.

delta,

i suspect that your RAF Puma may be somewhat different to the bond version - you might need a conversion course

Well it seems that Bond have ignored the applications from experienced SAR crewmen from the Coastguard because none of them seem to have been asked to an interview. Does make you wonder where they are getting there staff from.

Also heard that in Shetland they are bidding for the air ambulance work with the jigsaw aircraft up there. So where's the cover if their L2 is airlifting a patient to Aberdeen?? :confused:

Glad they're taking this SAR thing seriously. :sad:

Night Watchman

Don't blame Bond, they are only doing what the contract demands. I think it is BP who need to be questioned, but hopefully their workforce and the HSE will do that.

ri

No chance , if like all the other major oil companies , anybody who dares action, ie speak up , about there HSE policy will be " moved on"
As usual in these circumstances , things will carry on, trusting to chance that " hopefully nothing will happen whilst i am in charge " attitude.
As long as 'YES 'men are employed by these companies as chief pilots etc, we will always have these incredible hypocrisies in the aviation world.
Professionalism is a word like common sense that no longer exsists in the offshore aviation industry, it costs too much!!

NLLTGITWOAGS,

Steady on....the company I work for has many professionals and it does still exist - its just that the oil companies don't want to pay for it.

"It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you brought was incapable of doing the thing you brought it to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying too little and getting a lot - it cannot be done! So if you deal with the lowest bidder, it is wise to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better." John Ruskin. 1819 -1900,

runningin,

Me too. I work with people who manage to teach me something while learning themselves almost every day. But we are all hamstrung by cost cutting measures as a result of contractual constraints.
All the oil companies want is a bus service (or in this case a SAR service) that runs cheaply and requires little or no commercial maintenance/tweaking. IMHO most of the contracts are stitched up in such a way that they get exactly that, but with a cop out clause that almost always apportions blame on the operator (and the crew in particular) if things go wrong.
With the new QA/SMS policies in place nowadays I wonder how many past accidents/incidents, where they to be objectively reinvestigated, would have commercial pressure as an initial contributory factor ?
Sounds suspiciously like BP want to fund this project in the same way as the bus service, i.e. have their cake and eat it ??
But in this case they can't compromise, or can they ? If they do, who will get the blame if anything bad happens ?
Just a thought:ok:

NEO.

So, anyone got a job yet?;)

Wiz

Evidently the crewman and engineer interviews have been put back a month or so for some reason. I have also heard that some more pilots may also be interviewed.

RK

Interesting I have yet to meet anyone - SAR experienced pilot or rearcrew who has admitted being offered a job.

:confused:

Personally I will steer clear of a chief pilot who thinks coupled SAR OPS isn't Rocket Science. He is probably right it isn't but relevant, current experience is what keeps you out of the water on a black stormy night. 2 Weeks offshore, 2weeks Scatsta, 2 weeks line flying in ABZ. No thank you.

Any truth in the rumour that there are a number of CHC Ireland pilots who will be crossing the water.....?

I don’t know what all you guys are winging about, I think bond and bp are going to pull out all the stops on this bad boy, bp holds a big furry bag full of big green beer tokens and I’m sure if the guys don’t start flocking their way or the s**t hits the fan, I’m sure with a few extra quid any outfit could pull it off. As for experience well lets take a look at the roger nigel, there is probably more experience in stumpy hennel’s starboard flipflop than some of the guys serving there at present, loads of the original dedicated sar guys have retired. Or due to the fact that all of the shiny arsed admirals still think the ruskies are going to be carrying out beach landings at loe bar, therefore invested billions in the all singing and dancing merlin, which has either forced most of the guys into chasing imaginary subs or told the pusser to stick it where the sun don’t shine, overall leaving the coveted sar seaking squadrons with not a lot of experience. Also with the prospect of ‘sabre sar’ on the horizon it is quite easy to foresee the navy relinquishing sar altogether to save a few quid, as for the boys in light blue, they had their first taste of tony liar’s(woops missed the’b’) budget cuts and they probably will not be the last, how long will your sar squadrons last??? Personally I don’t think that 2 on and 2 off sounds that bad, I’ve done longer than that on the crest of a wave, as for the crews they hire, as long as they hire maybe 50% experienced crews, they can train up the others no big deal, if I can do it, any one can........ More jobs for the boys at the end of the day

Lord Melchet, please stop flogging it !!

To: joedirt
 

An excellent and very funny movie.

:E :E