Jetboxer

At no time did I infer that low cost meant that Bond are giving a second class service, in fact if they have any sense they will be bending over backwards to please the customer at the moment. Let's hope that BP wont be asking them to bend over forwards in the near future:O

I think it's common knowledge that most of the pilots that went across the runway were fairly low down on the seniority list as regards the 'big picture' within Scotia so whether they were at risk or not is a moot point. Having said that, Bond have acquired some high quality pilots from Scotia.

My main point has always been that pilots should not expect huge salaries to work offshore on the Jigsaw project. Perhaps they can attract ex-mil guys with a pension behind them although they in turn might not be keen to sit in prison - or as some people call it - offshore for half of their working life.


Keep smiling:ok:

Wiz


ps "More advanced Nav kit" does not methinks in this case mean "better Nav kit" - just a rumour but then again this is a rumour network!

A couple of points on Bond's recruitment.

Firstly, the ad is titled "We're Headhunting". To me that implies they know who they want - they might even have a list of names. I am certain that everyone (commanders and winchoperators) they employ will have substantial SAR experience. The wording in that advent will have been adjusted to satisfy the law.

Secondly BP will almost certainly want to see CVs of those in key positions. In other words it might well be the case that BP have the final say on who's who.

There is no doubt that Bond will have the right amount of experience in at least two of the four seats. What worries me is that the winchmen won't. I hope those going for that job are very aware of what being a winchman means and more importantly how much the Mil and Civvy winchmen are being paid. Don't sell yourselves short!

The following is copied from www.flightinternational.com for AllyPally


Following the award of one of the largest oil and gas industry crew change support contracts in the world, Bond Offshore Helicopters has been awarded a further significant long term contract for the provision of Search and Rescue services. This new 10 year contract requires two additional AS332L2 Super Puma helicopters which will be fully equipped to support 24 hour/7 day week Search and Rescue operations, aircraft being based offshore in the central North Sea. This contract requires highly motivated aviation professionals and therefore applications are invited from those who meet the following requirements:
A JAA/UK ATPL(H) with substantial experience in an offshore commercial, military or coastguard role. Experience at Search and Rescue or public transport hoisting operations is desirable. Training positions may be available for those pilots who have had significant SAR instructing experience. Flying experience must include not less than 1500 hours as pilot in command of helicopters including a minimum of 500 hours on multi-crew twin-turbine types.
A JAA Instrument Rating (Helicopters) is desirable but training may be provided for suitable applicants.
This SAR operation requires personnel to be both offshore and Shetland based for periods of up to 15 days at a time and the ability for all staff to co-operate closely with the client on site is considered an essential element of this operation.
In order to achieve a flexible and integrated workforce it is the Company's preference that employees reside within commuting distance of Aberdeen Airport, as from time to time, there may be a requirement for SAR staff to reassign to Aberdeen-based operations.
All applicants must have the right to work and live in the UK without restriction.
It is anticipated that employment for these positions will commence the 1st quarter of 2005.
In order to assist in personnel assessment and suitability, applications for any of these positions can only be accepted on a Company form that should be requested from the email address given.

Rotorbike - thanks very much - not much call for Flt Int up here.
Does anybody know the e-mail address for the form?

Ta

AP

Crashondeck,

You said

"Firstly, the ad is titled "We're Headhunting". To me that implies they know who they want - they might even have a list of names. I am certain that everyone (commanders and winchoperators) they employ will have substantial SAR experience. The wording in that advent will have been adjusted to satisfy the law".

They might know who they want, but why have they spent a few thousand £s on an Ad? Perhaps their headhunting has failed.

Is it illegal to say they want competent, experienced SAR commanders?

I agree about the winchmen. They are brave skilled men who deserve to be paid at least as much as the pilots, will exparamedics be any good at night in a force 10? Some might, but do they know what they are letting themselves in for?

With rumours circulating about military SAR being civilianised in the near future, eg Culdrose, will military pilots sell up and move north in the coming months or wait and see?

Latest I heard is that Mil SAR is at the moment safe..so don't count on having a surplus of Mil SAR bouys knocking on the door...unless they make us redundant in September...but the RAF is short of helo guys...perhaps we'll retread the soon to be jobless Jag mates????????????

Now it seems that the Bond Jigsaw aircraft will also be performing air ambulance in Shetland.

I wonder how that will fit in with the offshore safety case. If an aircraft ditches whilst they are on ambulance duties are they going to take the pregnant mother to the scene or drop her off first??

Full Story
http://www.shetland-news.co.uk/pages...e_contract.htm

Edited version

Gama have said they will operate two EC 135 Eurocopter helicopters out of Glasgow and Inverness, along with two pressurised fixed wing King Air 200c aircraft out of Glasgow and Aberdeen. These aircraft will be able to handle adverse weather conditions more effectively than the current Islander fixed wing aircraft which are not pressurised.

Further support would be made available from the Super Puma search and rescue helicopter operated by oil company BP out of Scatsta airport, in Shetland. Existing support from the Ministry of Defence and the coastguard will continue.

Anybody had any contact with Bond yet? Any news on pay, conditions, roster, leave etc.

2S

This jigsaw job sounds like a rather interesting job with all the right toys to do it properly. Will there be a great demand to work in the environment? are there going to be a lot of takers for the posts offered?
Any thoughts on these questions:cool:

North Sea Jigsaw
 

Does anyone know if Bond have completed recruiting for Jigsaw yet and what the plan is for the next few months?

I have heard that they have finished interviewing the potential SAR Commanders and will start on the crewmen shortly. Co-pilots will be interviewed in early 2005.

Apparently, despite several applications from current UK Coastguard SAR Commanders and Jigsaw Trial SAR Commanders (SAR current on the L2) none of them appear to have been interviewed. Is it because they all work for Bristow, the same company providing the SAR Mods for the Bond L2's? :hmm: Conspiracy theories on standby..

Where would pprune be without the conspiracy theorists!:rolleyes:

From a rear crew update, Bond are busy sorting out the large numbers of applicants as we speak and I was told they have got them down to a shortlist already and are hoping to have interviews and decisions made by Christmas.

As for talk I've read elsewhere about hiring firefighters etc., instead of qualified rearcrew, thats rubbish. Bond wouldn't do it just to save a quid and the oil companies will certainly not let it happen. For years oil companies and government agencies putting out tenders for contracts such as these, have had strict conditions on what pilots could work on these contracts, as in flying hours and experience in the role. This has extended to rearcrew now and so it should.

Still, would like to hear from anyone in the know on what kind of money they are paying the rearcrews. I've heard it's very good, but you'll be on a contract, so no super, sick leave etc. Anyone?

What's wrong with firefighters?

I'd heard that Bond are going to use paramedics as winchmen, and I can't see the differance.

Why not cut to the chase and go down to the local supermarket and employ all the checkout girls...........they'd be cheap!

PS This is not in any way intended to be insulting towards checkout girls (sorry......"persons" ) I shop at supermarkets frequently, and the staff are always very professional.............I just wouldn't want to be rescued from the water by them....... unless it's from a puddle in the car park.

Winchop

As for talk I've read elsewhere about hiring firefighters etc., instead of qualified rearcrew, thats rubbish. Bond wouldn't do it just to save a quid and the oil companies will certainly not let it happen.

You talk about Bond hiring qualified rearcrew and yet they haven't interviewed any of the current Coastguard or L2 SAR Commanders. Surely if they wanted qualified people they would at least have interviewed some of the above? Especially with their current North Sea and Atlantic operational experience.

And why are they talking about employing Air Ambulance paramedics who have probably never been winched in their life or pulled a man out of the water in a flat calm sea, never mind a high sea state.

All all sounds like Bond/BP spin to me.


For years oil companies and government agencies putting out tenders for contracts such as these, have had strict conditions on what pilots could work on these contracts, as in flying hours and experience in the role. This has extended to rearcrew now and so it should.

You make this sound like like it's a new thing. More spin? It's not, the strict conditions you talk about have been around for years for both pilots and aircrew. All the UK Coastguard contracts have had it since the start of them (15 odd years ago), as did, I believe, the original Jigsaw Trial contract! Apparently BP insisted on aircrew with a great depth of experience to help sell the concept to their workers. Interestingly enough none of them, to date, have had any reply from Bond with regard to their aplications. I'm sure the military have similar conditions on their aircrew personnel too.


Mountainman

Are you mad? Checkout girls? You haven't really thought that argument through.

Think of the discount vouchers you can get off your next weekly shop! :=

Intelligence suggests that those crewman applicants who have won an interview will be contacted by the end of October.

Hopefully commonsense will prevail for the crewmen and only those trained and experienced will get selected instead of non-aviators (the thought of sharing accommodation during those long winter nights with some check-out girls in possession of helmet bag-fulls of Stella discount vouchers does have it’s merits though). With regard to training, it is quicker and cheaper to put a crewman through an ATLS course if he needs it than to put an ambliance-person through a flying course.

Night Watchman: If your info is correct about current SAR commanders not being interviewed then please add me to the presumably long list of the ‘Totally Baffled’.

Mountainman and Night Watchman:

There's nothing wrong with firefighters at all. However if it IS true Bond want to train up new winchmen, then I'd rather it be an air ambulance paramedic with the medical skills already and some aviation knowledge than a firefighter with neither. Airmanship can't be learnt on a quick winchmen course, it takes time in the air and working in a multi crew environment to achieve, which they already have. But I would rather see fully qualified winchmen hired any day. (Better yet.. check out chicks!) :ok:

I can't speak for the pilots on who may or may not have got an interview but I pray that they grab with both hands the commanders with the SAR experience, because when I'm sitting in the back fat dumb and happy, I want a good SAR driver up front.

I know the experience criteria required is not a new thing, that's why I'm saying Bond will not get away with hiring those who haven't done the job before. Cheers all...

Winchop,

“Airmanship can't be learnt on a quick winchmen course, it takes time in the air and working in a multi crew environment to achieve, which they already have.”

Are you suggesting that an air ambulance paramedic has all the airmanship he requires for SAR because he’s flown in a helicopter? What experience has he got of getting people out of the water, of getting himself and a casualty off the back off a boat safely in rough conditions, of providing a FLIR letdown at night to the back of a vessel or to a rig in fog, of plotting a search pattern, of participating in a search and providing comms with the Coastguard, RCC and the like? The list could go on. Yes they can learn the basics on a quick winchman course but they can hardly be regarded as experienced.

What you and others need to understand is that the Jigsaw project is going ahead on the results of a group of very experienced SAR operators. The times and performance which justifies the whole existence of Jigsaw was achieved by long term SAR crews with years of experience. Any endorsement for Jigsaw by HSE and the workforce and others will be based on this. Will the Bond crews meet the same performance figures and prove that they can with their current recruitment policy? The answer is I don’t know but if they aren’t employing some current SAR Commanders and adopt the same policy with crewmen then I seriously doubt it. To many non SAR crew SAR is regarded as something anyone can do quite easily, I wonder whether those calling the shots at Bond believe the same?

“I'm saying Bond will not get away with hiring those who haven't done the job before.”

Really..??? Well we'll watch and see…..

Is it not the case that Bond (the contractor) will have to comply with what BP (the customer) requires with regard to the experience and qualifications of the aircrew? I would hate to think that BP have been remiss in laying down stringent requirements on this matter.

Quite agree with you, Night Watchman. The correct experience and qulifications have to be present from day one or else the whole thing will go Tango Uniform in very short order.

“Is it not the case that Bond (the contractor) will have to comply with what BP (the customer) requires with regard to the experience and qualifications of the aircrew?”

I think it is more of a case of - can they comply? Where are they going to get their experienced SAR crew from? They appear to have been quite picky to date so the pot is getting smaller.

SAR crew are few and far between at the moment and the pay offered by Bond is apparently on par with normal SAR pay in the UK, so not much incentive there. I don’t know how that would compare with the military crew but anyone coming over would loose a government pension and job security.

Remember it’s only a job for as long as BP keep the platforms – 40’s no more, Montrose no more, Arbroath no more…. BP’s outlook on life is big is better and I’m sure it won’t be long until they start to compare the profitability of smaller production platforms on the North Sea with their huge new discoveries in Russia.

If more platforms are sold off will the independent oil companies who will inevitability take them over want to pay for an expensive offshore SAR operation when a converted trawler sitting off a platform will meet the HSE requirements?

The job is going to be pretty boring too. Most crew who have spent a fortnight offshore doing morning and/or evening shuttles will tell you that a platform can be pretty boring and slightly depressing when you are hanging around doing nothing and there will be plenty of that!

So despite the current hype, the job itself isn’t going to be that exciting.

It’s also worth remembering that there are two other agencies that will have a big say in whether this still goes ahead. The CAA and the MCA and their approval will depend on the experience of the SAR crews amongst other considerations.

Has anyone out there actually been for an interview and been offered a job?

If so, what did you think of them?

I've heard recently that the co-pilots there are deeply pissed off because they have been told that some of them will have to go onto Jigsaw whether they like it or not.

So the crews are shaping up to be pretty punchy aren't they?

You'll have "pissed off, don't want to be here, haven't got a clue what's going on" in the left hand seat, and Nurse Gladys Emmanuel on the wire eagerly anticipating treating 21 hypothermic "patients" but not looking forward to "collecting" every one of them single handedly from the "cruel sea" before she can even start dispensing tea and toast.

Nice one!

Nightwatchman..

Why do you hate Bond so much? When did you work there, we might have worked together. You can't be so against them and not have worked for them surely??

And NO I'm not suggesting air paramedics have all the airmanship compared to experienced winchmen, stop twisting my words. I said I would rather winch down an air paramedic with SOME airmanship than a firefighter with absolutely none. When I worked for Bond the air paramedics did all our medical courses and were nothing but highly skilled and professional along with the paramedics I work with here currently in Oz who ARE the winchmen on our SAR helos. To carry on about them as 'Nurse Gladys making tea' is uninformed and insulting. What decade do you think we are in anyway?

I hope we can wait and see what happens with recruiting first before we all damn the company and knock them for people they've hired or didn't hire before they've actually done it!!

So, the chickens are coming home to roost!

The Jigsaw Trial used fully trained SAR crews and worked. Why do Air BP, sorry Bond, think that they can get away with inexperienced crews?

The real problem is that Bond probably don't have a clue about SAR, otherwise they would snap up all the experience they could get hold of.

Runnin In

Never been SAR crew, military, civilian or any other way. But I've seen them work and as an outsider I reckon they may qualify as SAR after training but it takes more than training to be good at it. The essential missing element is experience, and Bond or any other operator can't buy that wherever they recruit. Fact is, like it or not, Bristow have the monopoly on that in the civilian world.

So no reply to Mountainman's question!

But there again should be expect fireman and checkout girls to reply on pprune?

winchop,

You need winchmen who are advanced first aid trained, but they must be winchmen first and foremost.

running in

Running In - you are absolutely correct, I don't think many of the wanabee winchmen realise what a physical and dangerous job it is - the only way to minimise the danger is to be fit and well trained. If you have ever tried to place a strop on a person in the water whilst wearing a rubber suit and being battered by waves and downwash you will know what I mean.
It's the whole point of the 'Rescue' in Search and Rescue because you have to extract the casualty from peril before you can weave your paramedic magic on them.

Nightwatchman - the MCA will have zero input - the UK SAR cover is already in place and the Jigsaw stuff is just an add-on for the rig areas. As for the CAA, I suspect their knowledge of SARops is less than encylopaedic and other than checking that the helos are being operated within the rules, won't give a t*ss who is dangling on the wire.

Bond wouldn't give a job to a very experienced SAR QHI, partly because he asked awkward questions about de-icing the helo during the winter and keeping it pointed into wind on the heli-deck. Other questions regarding rear-crew equipment were equally ignored so if the Operators haven't actually thought through the detail of the job then who will?

Running in..

100% percent agree with you, no argument from me on that...

As for the question about interviews. I just got a reply from Bond saying interviews for rearcrew were starting by the end of October and they were hoping to have all they required and signed up by Christmas. Just telling you all what I was told...

Can anyone tell me what level of medical training a civilian winchman can get in the UK? When I worked for Bond previously, we did a medical course with the Scottish Ambulance Service, but it was really only advanced first aid with defibs etc. What level are the Bristows SAR boys at for example?

regards to all..winchop

Crab,

How wrong you are. The MCA – Maritime Coastguard Agency now have an enormous input towards the approval of a safety regime offshore. Aberdeen MRCC regularly hold meetings with the oil companies to agree and discuss safety and SAR procedures. They run courses on it for oil company staff. The image of the MCA being a grey haired bearded man, smoking a pipe staring out to sea through a telescope is long gone. The MCA has changed, it encompasses several government agencies now and are now responsible for things like pollution, safety offshore, seaworthiness of ships etc.. as well as maritime SAR. You are also forgetting that for this to work an appropriate Command and Control structure needs to be put in place to co-ordinate such SAR assets. In the Netherlands the Dutch Coastguard provide that structure for the L2 out there on behalf of the oil companies. Do you really think that if the UK Coastguard turned round and said ‘we think jigsaw is a bad idea’ that nobody would listen? Of course they’ll have an input!

With regard to the CAA. It is they who grant the dispensations which allow a civilian aircraft to perform SAR Ops. These dispensations have been approved after many years of working with one operator. They are not granted to just anyone and you can’t get them by applying through your local post office. The CAA regularly audit the SAR units to ensure that a proper safety and training regime is in place and that the aircrew are performing the task correctly and within the agreed operational procedures. At least one of their inspectors is an ex military SAR driver so their knowledge on SAR is probably more than you're giving them credit for. The CAA are ultimately answerable to the government if things go badly wrong with any operator that they have given dispensations too. Oh, I think they will give a t*ss! Especially in this blame culture we all live in now.

Winchop,

I don’t hate Bond. I am just slightly alarmed about what I hear about their recruiting. I find it strange that they appear to be ignoring applications from seasoned SAR Commanders from the Coastguard and, from what Crab is saying, the military. In fact, I have heard that the only Coastguard pilot to be interviewed by them was a co-pilot! Why didn’t they interview any of the Commanders that applied (and there were a few)? None of that seems to concur with your previous argument that they would only hire the most experienced crew available and it was you that said that “when I'm sitting in the back fat dumb and happy, I want a good SAR driver up front.” Does this not worry you? If anything I’m fighting your corner on this one!

Oh, and the Nurse Gladys remark wasn’t made by me so you’ll need to redirect your anger elsewhere on that one! No offense taken though… in case you were wondering! ;)

Night Watchman :ok:

Nightwatchman

If they aren't hiring the experienced drivers from the Coastguard and elsewhere that HAVE applied, then you're right, it is very alarming! I'm discovering more and more that maybe I'm being a bit too optimistic and naive to think they will hire the SAR commanders you talk of.

If I do get an interview as rearcrew, then at the top of my list of questions will be, 'who are the pilots you've hired to fly me around and what are their backgrounds?' (Along with, how much are you paying?) :ok:

To achieve my desire to be 'fat, dumb and happy' in the back of the cab, I need to know the guys (or girls) up the front are the right people thats for sure!:}

winchop:cool:

Nightwatchman - I still don't think either agency has any say on who is hired to be a winchman, that is up to Bond and BP, providing they make the right noises about training then who will prevent ex-firemen and ex-paramedics from acting as Jigsaw SAR winchmen.

Does anyone know if BALPA have been consulted over the new proposals for Jigsaw? After all it is their memebers who will be rescued when a ditching occurs, if the SAR crews are not experienced will they be successful?

Also are Bond recruiting inexperienced crews (both front and back) to save money and undercut the present pay rates, especially for crewmen?

running in

Just a slightly different angle on this thread regarding SAR commanders experience, as Bond proved in the Emerald isles, they did not know what SAR stood for, or what was involved, only some very experianced crews ( already running the show before Bond took over)managed to keep the show going.
Why should you hire experianced people who will keep reminding you,that you are not doing the job properly?, after all, if the commander returns from failing to do a rescue , quoting " the job was too difficult " who will question his decision? life will carry on, and they will keep the contract.
Its a pity to see they will do it all again, i just hope no one gets hurt.

NLTTGITWOAGS, that's an interesting point you've made.
If you look through the earlier postings on this thread, you'll see what I think of Bond's legacy in Ireland.

If an outsider were to read this thread, they would probably think that some of us are a bit anti Bond but personally I wish them well.

My real problem is with BP.

I have seen what the major Oil Companies have done to the oil and gas side of the North Sea helicopter industry and it scares me to think that the same thing might happen in SAR.
There comes a point when the cost cannot be driven down any lower. All that happens is corners are cut and things go wrong.
Do the offshore workers really want to be flown to work in an aircraft that was chosen because it was operated by the cheapest company?.........I don't think so.

I don't think that either the CAA or the MCA will ultimately stand in Bond's way, because Bond will (given time) be able to demonstrate that they have approved equipment and "qualified" crews. I think Bond's ultimate hurdle will be to prove to the offshore workforce and more importantly the HSE that they can meet the performance standard ie recover 21 survivors from the water in less than 30 minutes, and that is where the paramedics or any inexperienced crewmen will suffer.

The HSE will be watching things very closely and the BP Safety Rep's are a pretty pro-active bunch, and they do read Pprune, so if I was running the show it's them I'd be worried about.
Sadly for the Bond lads they don't even know what they don't know.

As for my "Gladys Emmanuel" comment earlier, I apologise if it offended anybody. I'm afraid the paramedics have become political footballs, and if that doesn't sum up this fiasco, what does?

Well, look at the aircraft that will be used for the Jigsaw contract. See who is the Chief Training Captain for Bond on that type. Ask what experience he has of training and SAR. Does it have any relevance? Is this 'new Bond's' overall level of experience and expertise? I don't live or work in UK so I have no idea, but maybe there are others out there who do.

The last time a lot of questions were asked on this forum about Jigsaw, Scotia Q strongly defended Bond and sounded as if he was involved in the project with Bond.

Scotia Q, do you have anything to say about the points raised this time around? Could you enlighten us, as we are in the dark and could be barking up the wrong tree.

running in

It might be that Scotia Q is now Bond Q!

Wiz :rolleyes:

Wizzard,

I expect you are correct.

The lack of comment from an informed Bond source leads me to think that our concerns are real......unless anyone knows differently?

ri

Crab,
I'm curious.
Could you elaborate on the questions that your QHI friend asked and what the response was?

Have they thought about a return to the mainland with a serious casualty when the weather is cr@p?

The other operators have Lo-Viz approaches for the airfields they operate from; this is regularly practiced.

Where will Air BP be able to do this, or are long transits to an airfield out of the 'Haar' going to be acceptable, bearing in mind ‘the longer the transit, the greater the risk to the casualty’?

I think what a lot of people are assuming is that Jigsaw will be the same SAR as provided by the RAF/RN/HMCG.

It won't. It will be a much reduced version from what I hear. The commanders will be line pilots given a few hrs winching practise, the co-pilots will be even less experienced.

The crews will only be qualified to winch over the water and onto simple decks, no cliff/mountain exp required.

They will be there to remove casualties from danger and land them on a suitable rig for treatment.

Low viz approaches to airfields will not be required.

The main danger will be boredom but to relieve that I hear pilots will be required to fly the line every 3rd offshore rotation to satisfy the accountants as their hours will be low.

I for one will not be applying. I don't want to be on the end of the wire in poor conditions at night with an inexperienced SAR pilot at the controls:*

Let's remind ourselves what Jigsaw is all about - as I see it that is!

As I write, each and every offshore installation - apart from FPSO's - have a Standby Vessel in the vicininty to rescue the crew if there should be a major accident (Piper Alpha) or a man overboard etc.

These are on station 24/7 and are a very expensive piece of kit. What BP want to do is to replace many of these vessels with 2-4 offshore/onshore based helicopters, thereby saving lots and lots of oily money.

The main task of these aircraft will be to pick up survivors in the water and take them to the nearest oil rig/platform where they can get medical treatment if required before being transfered to the beach in slow time. If an urgent medivac to the beach is required it might be that the powers that be decide not to release the Jigsaw aircraft and use the current SAR resource - Bristow/RAF.

Therefore there might not be a requirement for Jigsaw crews to be all singing, all dancing SAR qualified - especially in the early stages.

Scoop 'em up and drop 'em off might be the order of the day ;)