Westland Scout
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Westland Scout
I've just spotted an advert in Flyer for flying a Westland Scout at £100/hr with The Historic Military Helicopter Club . I think I've seen the ad and an article before, about a Scout flown on a Permit to Fly and I've e-mailed for more details.
In the meantime, does anybody know about this club, or, even better, anyone fly the machine(s) in question?
Thanks folks,
DBChopper
In the meantime, does anybody know about this club, or, even better, anyone fly the machine(s) in question?
Thanks folks,
DBChopper
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I think this club is Thruxton based. Thay have a selection of ex mil types, and sell a few scouts/wasps. All ground staff are also ex mil.
Very friendly bunch (If it's the same lot). Worth a trip down if only to have a look in the hangar !
Very friendly bunch (If it's the same lot). Worth a trip down if only to have a look in the hangar !
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Happy Landing!
Thanks - I thought I remembered the Thruxton link from an article I read. I'll pop along to have a look.
PPRUNE FAN#1 & KENNYR
Come on then - tell us more about this hydraulic failure...
DBChopper
Thanks - I thought I remembered the Thruxton link from an article I read. I'll pop along to have a look.
PPRUNE FAN#1 & KENNYR
Come on then - tell us more about this hydraulic failure...
DBChopper
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I think the fan is refering to the Scouts wicked desire to flip inverted if manual reversion is attempted above 90 kts. It takes the forearms of Garth and a huge capacity for real ale to get the Queen of the sky under control again.
If you choose to take a ride enjoy the experience, I hope for your sake its well maintained!
If you choose to take a ride enjoy the experience, I hope for your sake its well maintained!
£100 an hour is purely maintenance hourly costs. An extra 60 imperial gallons of fuel an hour needs to be catered for - approx £60 per hour.
So, Scout flying for £160 an hour - beats JetRanger rates in excess of £350 an hour - but no real reduction from R22 hire rates, especially if you can claim back VAT.
However the machines are on a Permit to Fly so no AOC work.
So, Scout flying for £160 an hour - beats JetRanger rates in excess of £350 an hour - but no real reduction from R22 hire rates, especially if you can claim back VAT.
However the machines are on a Permit to Fly so no AOC work.
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FlyGunz.......You remembered! That had to be the scariest thing I have ever had to experience in my flying career. Luckily it never happened to me for real, but it sure was nice to see the student squirm and sweat before he tried to kill me in the engine off area!
Several AAIB bulletins to read carefully :
1. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/dec00/gbzbd.htm
This one in particular has similarities to the hydraulic problems referred to above.
2. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/jul02/gbxsl.htm
3. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/dec00/gbynz.htm
4. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/nov00/gbxrl.htm
1. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/dec00/gbzbd.htm
This one in particular has similarities to the hydraulic problems referred to above.
2. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/jul02/gbxsl.htm
3. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/dec00/gbynz.htm
4. http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/nov00/gbxrl.htm
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I stopped reading after the first two reports as I was beginning to feel a rant coming on. I have a big problem with anyone thinking they can fly a Scout safely with only a few hours on type and I would be concerned for anyone going for a pleasure ride with a low time wannabe at the controls.
When the Military trained Pilots to fly the Scout they had already flown Gazelle and even then they were given 40 hours of training. Now before anyone jumps down my throat about tactical training, there was very little on the Scout conversion, most of the time was pure handling, IF and EOLs. EOLs, there was only one real technique for this autorotative brick with short stubby wings, and that was 50 kts to ground rush then... flarechecklevelkeepitstraight..........
Hope that comes across ok?
The reason for all this GH?.... The Scout would bite yer ass if she wasn't handled properly and many an ass has been bitten over the years including mine!
So DBchops, think first, check out the operation, see who does the maint, ask how experienced the Pilot is on the machine and his recency. Above all, if he asks you if you want to see what the baby can do.... decline.
Rant over....sorry!!
When the Military trained Pilots to fly the Scout they had already flown Gazelle and even then they were given 40 hours of training. Now before anyone jumps down my throat about tactical training, there was very little on the Scout conversion, most of the time was pure handling, IF and EOLs. EOLs, there was only one real technique for this autorotative brick with short stubby wings, and that was 50 kts to ground rush then... flarechecklevelkeepitstraight..........
Hope that comes across ok?The reason for all this GH?.... The Scout would bite yer ass if she wasn't handled properly and many an ass has been bitten over the years including mine!
So DBchops, think first, check out the operation, see who does the maint, ask how experienced the Pilot is on the machine and his recency. Above all, if he asks you if you want to see what the baby can do.... decline.
Rant over....sorry!!
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FlyGunz, I agree 150% with you, but I managed to read them all. The Scout, in the hands of a low time civilian PPL(H) holder should be classed as a deadly weapon. I found the beast to be difficult to fly at times, especially when we were in Monterrey, California (Heavy, Hot and High).
Why the powers to be allowed this Military workhorse to become a civilian is beyond my comprehension. You remember the problems they had with the Cabin Heat Control and the Fuel Cock being confused with each other so that fuel was getting turned off when it got cold?!?!?
Who are the pilots at Thruxton, does anyone know. I am sure that at least one or two, if they are ex-Corps, will have some Scout experience.
With regards to the EOL, you forgot the most important thing
.............FlarechecklevelkeepitstraightOhshiiiiiiiiiii@ii iiiiiiit!!!!................
Why the powers to be allowed this Military workhorse to become a civilian is beyond my comprehension. You remember the problems they had with the Cabin Heat Control and the Fuel Cock being confused with each other so that fuel was getting turned off when it got cold?!?!?
Who are the pilots at Thruxton, does anyone know. I am sure that at least one or two, if they are ex-Corps, will have some Scout experience.
With regards to the EOL, you forgot the most important thing
.............FlarechecklevelkeepitstraightOhshiiiiiiiiiii@ii iiiiiiit!!!!................
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Westland Scout
Best helicopter I've flown probably because it was my first. Hydraulic failure is not a big problem - just a bit heavy on the controls until you have slowed down. One can still hover without hydraulics although it is easier to slowly run-on to land.
Engine-offs are a bit quick until you get used to them. On the other hand it is much easier to pick you landing point because there is not much choice - it has a fairly steep glide angle once the engine has stopped. I think I would be safe in saying that fewer pilots have been hurt following an engine failure than in most other types. At one time the engine was very unreliable. I would rather land a Scout onto rough ground or a ploughed field than a Jetranger - I have plenty of experience on both. Nonsense to say you have to run-on. You can do a zero speed as easily as any other helicopter but you must remain in practice with the scout because there is not a large margin of inertia in the rotor - but being so strong it can drop harder without damage compared to the more delicate helicopters.
Engine-offs are a bit quick until you get used to them. On the other hand it is much easier to pick you landing point because there is not much choice - it has a fairly steep glide angle once the engine has stopped. I think I would be safe in saying that fewer pilots have been hurt following an engine failure than in most other types. At one time the engine was very unreliable. I would rather land a Scout onto rough ground or a ploughed field than a Jetranger - I have plenty of experience on both. Nonsense to say you have to run-on. You can do a zero speed as easily as any other helicopter but you must remain in practice with the scout because there is not a large margin of inertia in the rotor - but being so strong it can drop harder without damage compared to the more delicate helicopters.
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BDChopper,
Re. the possible choice of Scout, my question would be 'Why?'
With due respect to the ex-mil guys who are operating these on the civilian register, I don't think it's a sensible choice for PPL flying.
For equal 'ex-mil' appeal, the Bell 47 Sioux will give you as much fun, cheaper per hour and much, much safer to EOL.
If not a piston, then how about an Allouette? But, there's no such thing as a cheap turbine, especially if its ex-military. This would be my choice above the Scout or Gazelle.
Re. the possible choice of Scout, my question would be 'Why?'
With due respect to the ex-mil guys who are operating these on the civilian register, I don't think it's a sensible choice for PPL flying.
For equal 'ex-mil' appeal, the Bell 47 Sioux will give you as much fun, cheaper per hour and much, much safer to EOL.
If not a piston, then how about an Allouette? But, there's no such thing as a cheap turbine, especially if its ex-military. This would be my choice above the Scout or Gazelle.
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Always did love the 47G4 and the Sioux. They are definately a better choice for an economical trainer/private helicopter. They certainly are superb in the event of a donkey stop. Given the choice I would have the Soloi converted Bell47.
Tabdy.......You are being very blase about the Scout. How many thousands of hours do you have on the machine? Just out of interest are you ex-AAC.
Tabdy.......You are being very blase about the Scout. How many thousands of hours do you have on the machine? Just out of interest are you ex-AAC.
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Tadby, you've competely missed the point ( or have you?). A low time ppl flying a Scout is an accident waiting to happen. The advice to DB was to check who plans to be at the controls for his flight.
The bottom line here is that the trainers who initially carried out the conversions ceased to do so due to the poor experience and quality level of potential convertees, any comment on that?
Read the accident reports. The defence rests m'lud.
Ken......
The bottom line here is that the trainers who initially carried out the conversions ceased to do so due to the poor experience and quality level of potential convertees, any comment on that?
Read the accident reports. The defence rests m'lud.
Ken......
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I did 4.9 hrs on scouts as a AAC crewman...loved it!
I liked the way they hop across the pan when winding up, especially when the last pilot had pulled on the rotor brake a bit hard and all the blades went out of sync.
Does anyone remember a certain Captain who was picking up a General for a trip and left his dpm jacket on the engine deck and it got sucked into the engine on start up? Did we laugh????
I liked the way they hop across the pan when winding up, especially when the last pilot had pulled on the rotor brake a bit hard and all the blades went out of sync.
Does anyone remember a certain Captain who was picking up a General for a trip and left his dpm jacket on the engine deck and it got sucked into the engine on start up? Did we laugh????
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As a low time civilian amateur PPL (H) on Scouts (170 hrs plus 1200hrs on other, non rotary things) I suppose I just have to accept that I am, in the opinion of those ex-army pprune heroes, just another deadly accident waiting to happen.
I can’t see any point in defending my favourite flying dump truck against such a wealth of experience but I can admit that I do enjoy flying the brute hugely.
I love the sheer crudity of the thing. I’ve tried a Gazelle and it makes the Scout feel like a jeep compared to a Ferrari. The Ferrari is lovely but for everyday use I really want a jeep.
It’s not that fast and a headwind can make you mutter but the power is something else. I did my ab initio training in high and hot California and so was never really sure that I had enough power to come into a high hover when two up in a Schweizer. No such problem in the Scout.
It’s amazingly heavy if you chop the hydraulics but it is definitely flyable by anything slightly stronger than a wimp. A couple of years ago I was at Thruxton when the CAA did a series of test runs during which they chopped the hydraulics at speeds up to 110 knots. The pilot (an attractive figure….he does my annual checks) isn’t built like Tarzan and he seemed unfazed by the experience.
I accept that the Scout E.O.L’s are a spectator sport most of the way down with all the input over the last few seconds. To compensate I always dial in the wind direction on the compass and fly just teeny bit higher to give me a few more yards of gliding.
I also accept that four of the Scouts have crashed in civilian hands but it’s a testament to something (luck?) that everybody managed to walk or crawl away. Literally in the case of the guys who autoed into a flooded quarry, the only ones who seem to have had some sort of inexplicable power failure.
One pilot lost tail rotor authority in a slow right hand descending spiral close to the ground in marginal viz….not a clever position for anybody with a left turning rotor system to put themselves into and another destroyed his aircraft just 15 short minutes after finishing his conversion….it is very, very twitchy in pitch. The last one had water in the fuel…hardly a fault of the aircraft.
I did ask an ex-military man to show me what a Scout could do. I have never been so frightened in my life but I did realise that we civilians actually fly it at only about 40% of it’s capability……….it’s going to be a sad day when I have to give it up…I think a recession is about to hit us.
The Scout
I can’t see any point in defending my favourite flying dump truck against such a wealth of experience but I can admit that I do enjoy flying the brute hugely.
I love the sheer crudity of the thing. I’ve tried a Gazelle and it makes the Scout feel like a jeep compared to a Ferrari. The Ferrari is lovely but for everyday use I really want a jeep.
It’s not that fast and a headwind can make you mutter but the power is something else. I did my ab initio training in high and hot California and so was never really sure that I had enough power to come into a high hover when two up in a Schweizer. No such problem in the Scout.
It’s amazingly heavy if you chop the hydraulics but it is definitely flyable by anything slightly stronger than a wimp. A couple of years ago I was at Thruxton when the CAA did a series of test runs during which they chopped the hydraulics at speeds up to 110 knots. The pilot (an attractive figure….he does my annual checks) isn’t built like Tarzan and he seemed unfazed by the experience.
I accept that the Scout E.O.L’s are a spectator sport most of the way down with all the input over the last few seconds. To compensate I always dial in the wind direction on the compass and fly just teeny bit higher to give me a few more yards of gliding.
I also accept that four of the Scouts have crashed in civilian hands but it’s a testament to something (luck?) that everybody managed to walk or crawl away. Literally in the case of the guys who autoed into a flooded quarry, the only ones who seem to have had some sort of inexplicable power failure.
One pilot lost tail rotor authority in a slow right hand descending spiral close to the ground in marginal viz….not a clever position for anybody with a left turning rotor system to put themselves into and another destroyed his aircraft just 15 short minutes after finishing his conversion….it is very, very twitchy in pitch. The last one had water in the fuel…hardly a fault of the aircraft.
I did ask an ex-military man to show me what a Scout could do. I have never been so frightened in my life but I did realise that we civilians actually fly it at only about 40% of it’s capability……….it’s going to be a sad day when I have to give it up…I think a recession is about to hit us.
The Scout
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The Scout.......we are not ex-mil heroes as you so eloquently put it. We are just very experienced rotory pilots who converted onto the Scout after having flown fixed wing and other helicopters. This was a mandatory qualification before even applying for the conversion. This requirement wasnt because the military wanted high time pilots....it was because they recognized the "bite-back-ability" of the Scout.
So please dont think that FlyGunz and Myself are heroes, we're just trying to inform low time ppl(h) holders that the Scout needs to be flown with the utmost respect.
I was trying to advise DBCHOPPER not to be too blase when flying or even talking about the Scout. It bites
So please dont think that FlyGunz and Myself are heroes, we're just trying to inform low time ppl(h) holders that the Scout needs to be flown with the utmost respect.
I was trying to advise DBCHOPPER not to be too blase when flying or even talking about the Scout. It bites