Which is the best helicopter for training?

[Flingwing207]

Care to elaborate, Cran?

[rotornut]

Further to...
The 300 looks like a real helicopter. When I first looked inside a Robbie, the controls reminded me of M-I-C-K... you know the rest

[Ojuka]

R22 / Enstrom / Hughes 269

Hi. Being a helicopter virgin can anyone tell me the honest differences in operating costs if I were to buy an R22, Enstrom F28 or Hughes 269?

I have heard a Robinson will cost a private owner on a private Cat C of A £20k a year upkeep all in, if he does 70hrs pa. What is the lifespan in calendar years and hours of an R22?

Would an Enstrom be the most complex and therefore the most expensive to run?

Some have said the Hughes is a happy medium albeit with a speed penalty.

Your experiences and do's / dont's would be much appreciated.

[Grainger]

2200 hours / 12 years on the R22, so it doesn't make sense unless you're going to do at least 200 hours a year. In fact, whenever I've done the calculation taking into account fixed costs and everything, it works out closer to 300 to 400 a year to make it worth your while. For 70 hours you may as well SFH.

[Ojuka]

That is exactly my problem -

The nearest self fly hire available (since I moved) is an hour and a half away by car.

Personal ownership is something I want to consider.

[Gaseous]

I have an old Enstrom F28 which has been a brilliant helicopter. Bought cheap and then spent a significant sum (half the purchase cost) to make it nice. In total it cost about the same as a cheap R22. It has been very reliable for 3 years. Insurance is cheap as based on hull value.
If you get an Enstrom, keep it dry, get a good engineer (mechanic). Don't economise on parts, Learn how to run it very, very lean and enjoy a good, safe, economical helicopter. Ideal for private flying. My situation was the same as yours and I have not regretted getting it one bit.

I wouldn't swap it for a Robinson 22. I wouldn't own a R22.
I have more time on Robinsons than Enstrom.
I would only consider swapping it for a 44 if the extra seat was required, and then I think I would get an Enstrom 480 despite the cost.

[muffin]

And my situation as well. My ads a few months back for share partners produced just one reply from a guy who had not got his PPL yet. I have never flown an Enstrom - are there any operators in the Midlands where I could go and try one?

[helicopter-redeye]

I have heard a Robinson will cost a private owner on a private Cat C of A £20k a year upkeep all in, if he does 70hrs pa. What is the lifespan in calendar years and hours of an R22?

I think it is more complex than that.

If you search previous threads this debate has been worked out on Rotorheads in the past 6 to 8 months.

Basically you have to account for:-

Aircraft mortgage: This varies depending on lender, deal and interest rate. The below are out of date examples at a higher than now interest rate (thanks Gordon)

R22 Beta II

* 1) 72 x £ 1000.83 followed by final payment of £ 21355
* 2) 60 x £ 847.92 followed by final payment of £ 42710

Insurance

In the order of £4K to £7k depanding on what you want to do (self fly or hire for SFH etc)

Hangerage/based charges

£100 to £300/ per month.

Maintenance

Say £3500 to £5500/ year based on hours flown (50/ 100hr checks) plus reserve for problems.

The account for your own flying costs, fuel, landing charges etc

Take the totals for the year then work out the hours you will fly and how much you may cross hire to somebody else, then calculate the cost per hour that applies to you.

If you set up a special purpose company then you can reclaim VAT and purchase & maintenance and pay VAT on your flying.



Its also worth looking at the R44 as if you are training you could learn on this and if you are building hours, then its nicer to fly, faster and carries more. There are older R44s around for the price of an R22 today so checkout Helidate etc for second hand machines.

Always checkout the machine with an engineer. get quotes for mortage etc from Air & General, Lombard, Hitachi, etc get quotes for insurance from Haywards, HSBC etc


For Entrsoms, go to Manchester Barton. Thats were the Northern stock is.


IMHO, R44 best bet all round, especially if you look to cross hire.

h-r

[MD900 Explorer]

R22 SFH

Ojuka

The nearest self fly hire available (since I moved) is an hour and a half away by car.

If you live in Haywards Heath, then you have FAST Helicopters in Shoreham and Biggin Hill Helicopters in Biggin Hill, and i guess some operators round Redhill too. It does not take 1.5 hours to get to either of these places, unless you drive via Southhampton.

Maybe you should find a person who is willing to go in on a part share with you?

BTW Eastern Atlantic at Shoreham (Next Door to FAST Helicopters) sell New and used Enstroms

MD

[rotornut]

Having owned a 269B I can tell you it was cheap to buy but expensive to maintain. This was due in part to the previous owner who let a lot of things go. But I can say I loved the little beast which could barely manage 80 mph and carry 2 pax.
In comparison, the R22 seems a lot simpler to maintain as the Hughes has all sorts of odd component times. If you want more info, PM me and I can fill you in on the specifics (and the horror stories about the cost of some repairs!)

[muffin]

Redeye

Yes, the R22 or 44 will open up more cross hire opportunities as there are more potential customers with the type ratings. I noticed what appeared to be a very cheap 44 in the latest Helidata, presumably due to users trading up to the Raven. I have been lucky during the last 4 months in having an R22 permanently available but it went home last weekend and I will miss it sorely!

If I do your calculation based on just my own annual hours then the economics of ownership just do not stack up. Hence there would have to be either a group or some cross hire to make it sensible.

I will go and try an Enstrom at Barton.

[helicopter-redeye]

If you live in Haywards Heath, then you have FAST Helicopters in Shoreham and Biggin Hill Helicopters in Biggin Hill, and i guess some operators round Redhill too. It does not take 1.5 hours to get to either of these places, unless you drive via Southhampton

Clearly Sir, you are fortunate not to be familiar with English Traffic!

One and a half hours was a good day ....

If I do your calculation based on just my own annual hours then the economics of ownership just do not stack up. Hence there would have to be either a group or some cross hire to make it sensible

That is if you aim to own on the basis of profit rather than flexibility.

In the end, I bought because hiring from flying schools was fraught with problems including availability being taken away at the last minute ("somebody else wants it"); check flight every flight (even if you flew the day before) to earn more revenue for the FIs; general cost; and etc.

One of my neighbours calculated (he\'s a pilot btw) that owning a R22 only works if you get big numbers from hire to schools else it is cheaper to hire.

[rotorboater]

IMHO if you are doing less than 100 hrs a year it is cheaper to hire but as with everything in life it is better to own and then have the flexibility - its a choice you have to make yourself and I decided I wanted to buy and I know it dosn't make financial sence but then again flying helicopters for fun dosn't make financial sence full stop!

I went for the Enstrom because it is bigger, safer and I think probably cheaper in the long run when you take into account the callander lifed parts (only the lamiflex bearings on an enstrom) liability of the R22.

The cost price dosn't come into it that much as you will get back about what you pay for it if you don't put too many hours on it.

Maintenance costs seem similar to the R22 and there are a few very good engineers around who specialise in the Enstrom.

[muffin]

The cost price dosn't come into it that much as you will get back about what you pay for it if you don't put too many hours on it.

Rotorboater

That is an interesting point. With the 2200 hour rebuild on the R22, the value depreciates in almost a straight line until you hit the base cost prior to rebuild. Presumably the Enstrom is lifed on condition so this does not apply? That must be a definite plus point in its favour.

[Grainger]

check flight every flight (even if you flew the day before)

Crikey HR - that sounds like a rip-off if ever I heard one ! 28 days fair enough, but every flight - that's definitely unusual !

[Hughes500]

Go for a 300c, I have run them for 14 years and have only ever had one big bill on unschduled maintence ( £ 6500 for a transmission problem ) The rest of the bills have all been component changes.

My last annual on an ac that had flown 400 hrs in a year was £ 3500, the previous 300 hour inspection £ 650, last 200 hour £ 450 and 100 hour was £ 250.

Insurance on one should be £ 4000 to £ 6000 depending on value and type of insurance. Fuel consumption is 50 litres an hour
You can also get 3 people in and 49 gals of fuel in it - yes it will lack performance and is cramped but she does it.

You can buy a good 300C with half life items for around £ 65 to£ 75K. Bear in mind there is no calender items on the machine.
However DO NOT STORE OUTSIDE, if you do your bills will double.
PM if you want my phone number for a chat.

[helicopter-redeye]

Ultimately, your choice of type will be driven by what you want to do and what you can afford.

Low cost local flying will give you a different profile to lots of longer cross country/ touring trips, which really needs a faster machine.

Similiarly if you are flying alone or want to have more than a smaller companion on board.

Tabulate the various costs & pros/ cons and see what works for you.

h-r

[rotornut]

However DO NOT STORE OUTSIDE, if you do your bills will double

That's true!

[oldbeefer]

I've only 9000 hours, but have to admit that I feel more comfortable in Enstroms and Hughes 300s. They are (IMOH) much more survivable if something goes wrong - EOL performance is streets ahead of the R22. I do recommend Barton. I've flown with most of the staff there and they run (or ran, I'm 3 years out of date) a very professional outfit.

[Up & Away]

s300 and Enstrom

My last student in a S300 has just finished his PPL (H) course at 46hrs.
I used to teach at CSE oxford where each student rarely went over the minimums to complete both in S300 and way back in Enstrom F28As.
I recently did a PPL skills Test for someone in a R22 who had over 70 hours.
Need we say more....
On the question of engine offs I am getting more R22 pilots who will come and do a training day of eols on the S300.
Lets not knock to R22 it has some very good points