Which is the best helicopter for training?
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Which is the best helicopter for training?
Gidday,
I am about to start my Rotary CPL training and have a choice to fly Robbies or the 300.Could you guys give me some advice which one sets you up better for conversions on to other types after training?
Thanks
I am about to start my Rotary CPL training and have a choice to fly Robbies or the 300.Could you guys give me some advice which one sets you up better for conversions on to other types after training?
Thanks
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I've only flown the R22, with a quick half hour in a 300 to see what it was like. My observations :
R22 pros - cheapest, most numerous training heli, agile, easy to fly, "if you can fly a Robbie you can fly anything", governed ERPM.
R22 cons - can bite the unwary / stupid if allowed but the same's true of all helicopters ( low G, low rotor inertia ), low MAUW restricting options, slow(ish), cyclic position/design for tall people like me can cause extra nause getting accurate flying.
H300 pros - not an R22, proper cyclic with working ( after a fashion ) trim, rigid head, more useful load ( I think ), bigger inside.
H300 cons - slower than an R22, more expensive, manual throttle control ( this depends on your point of view ), P1 sits on left which means swapping hands on cyclic to change radios, altimeter settings and the like.
Really it's a suck it and see job. Speak to local instructors on both types, if possible fly a few hours in both looking to see which you feel more comfortable in, and go from there - check first that the hours you do in one will count to your licence should you decide to fly the other type full time.
Is that a tad more helpful ?
R22 pros - cheapest, most numerous training heli, agile, easy to fly, "if you can fly a Robbie you can fly anything", governed ERPM.
R22 cons - can bite the unwary / stupid if allowed but the same's true of all helicopters ( low G, low rotor inertia ), low MAUW restricting options, slow(ish), cyclic position/design for tall people like me can cause extra nause getting accurate flying.
H300 pros - not an R22, proper cyclic with working ( after a fashion ) trim, rigid head, more useful load ( I think ), bigger inside.
H300 cons - slower than an R22, more expensive, manual throttle control ( this depends on your point of view ), P1 sits on left which means swapping hands on cyclic to change radios, altimeter settings and the like.
Really it's a suck it and see job. Speak to local instructors on both types, if possible fly a few hours in both looking to see which you feel more comfortable in, and go from there - check first that the hours you do in one will count to your licence should you decide to fly the other type full time.
Is that a tad more helpful ?
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No competition here the 300. Nr Fairy is right in a lot of his obsevations. However it is not that much slower than an R 22. 2 pax 49g of fuel 23.5 inchs a good one will cruise comfortably at 80 knts. Can get 85 without much difficulty.
Try and get your hands on a 269B slower than a C but cheaper to hire than even a Robbie , probably find a CB is cheaper too.
Other advantages of a 300 are : They are used all over the world for other purposes other than training. Eg load lifting ( empty weight 1100 lbs maw 2050lbs - so quite useful ) spraying, mustering, aerial photography, law enforcement, survey work etc etc.
An employer would be more interested in hours on type. Having said that you really want to get turbine time to be attractive.
Best of luck.
Try and get your hands on a 269B slower than a C but cheaper to hire than even a Robbie , probably find a CB is cheaper too.
Other advantages of a 300 are : They are used all over the world for other purposes other than training. Eg load lifting ( empty weight 1100 lbs maw 2050lbs - so quite useful ) spraying, mustering, aerial photography, law enforcement, survey work etc etc.
An employer would be more interested in hours on type. Having said that you really want to get turbine time to be attractive.
Best of luck.
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The 300CB is a very good training aircraft.The fact that it doesn't have a governor is a good thing as the new training pilot will pick up the correlation between rotor pitch and rotor rpm.Hover autos and full touch down autos are far more forgiving and theres more room in the cockpit than an R22.
I'm not knocking the R22 its a great aircraft to fly fantastic tr authourity and positively sporty in comparison but better to fly it after you've got around 50 hrs helicopter time under your belt.As for cost the 300 CB is competitive with the R22,(at least it was when I was teaching/training)as it doesn't have the 2000hr overhaul cost.
Hope this is of some help.
I'm not knocking the R22 its a great aircraft to fly fantastic tr authourity and positively sporty in comparison but better to fly it after you've got around 50 hrs helicopter time under your belt.As for cost the 300 CB is competitive with the R22,(at least it was when I was teaching/training)as it doesn't have the 2000hr overhaul cost.
Hope this is of some help.
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The key is probably getting time on the a/c you are likely to fly commercially - in NZ maybe more likely to be 300.
Secondly cost - if the type is not important then fly the cheapest.
to Newschopper - I am sure Kiwi is flexible enough to get his head around the T-bar. If not maybe he should fly the actual type he will be using for work.
"how many turbine-powered helicopters use a t-bar for cyclic control?"
(how many piston engines have turbine engines?)
Secondly cost - if the type is not important then fly the cheapest.
to Newschopper - I am sure Kiwi is flexible enough to get his head around the T-bar. If not maybe he should fly the actual type he will be using for work.
"how many turbine-powered helicopters use a t-bar for cyclic control?"
(how many piston engines have turbine engines?)
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I taught students on both types and I always found people progressed faster on the 300CB.
Even if the R22 is a little cheaper you'll find you will hover and solo sooner on the 300CB. If you plan to train in the US then you'll also not have to fly 20 hours before going solo in the R22 due to SFAR 73.
As you said you're aiming for a CPL then Arm The Floats has some good advice, get the PPL on the 300CB and then transfer onto the R22 with a bit of experience.
Which school were you looking at?
Even if the R22 is a little cheaper you'll find you will hover and solo sooner on the 300CB. If you plan to train in the US then you'll also not have to fly 20 hours before going solo in the R22 due to SFAR 73.
As you said you're aiming for a CPL then Arm The Floats has some good advice, get the PPL on the 300CB and then transfer onto the R22 with a bit of experience.
Which school were you looking at?
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Hi KS,
R22's remind me a little, of the Great Muhamed Ali ( or Cassius Clay if your old enough) when he said, " Float like a butterfly, and Sting like a BEE", well that sums up the R22 for moi! although it will not help you to choose, I learnt on the R22 and apart from a few hairy moments, I would agree with the poster who said " If you can fly a 22 you can fly anything" the transition from "T" bar, to floor mounted cyclic took about 10 mins to get used to, good luck to you, whatever you choose. However remember " The Butterfly".
R22's remind me a little, of the Great Muhamed Ali ( or Cassius Clay if your old enough) when he said, " Float like a butterfly, and Sting like a BEE", well that sums up the R22 for moi! although it will not help you to choose, I learnt on the R22 and apart from a few hairy moments, I would agree with the poster who said " If you can fly a 22 you can fly anything" the transition from "T" bar, to floor mounted cyclic took about 10 mins to get used to, good luck to you, whatever you choose. However remember " The Butterfly".
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I trained on the robbie but have a little time in the 300,and as mentioned it is a very manouverable aircraft and I found that the 300 was really quite slow given a hot day, and the "throttle work" was limited because we were on full throttle the whole time and regulating the RRPM with collective/air speed so the "no govenor" issue didn't really make much difference. I was told (and 1 agree)that transition to the 206 was easier if you were used to the R22 and as that was where I was heading, it made sense. As for the T bar. I once asked this pro with WAY more hours than me what he thought of the T bar after his first robbie flight. he said "didn't really notice till you said"
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Try them both!
I started on the 300C (it was all that was available in the area). I got to the point of soloing (~9 hrs) and after getting half an hour solo time in the 300, I had to go back to school where Robbies were the only option. I've been flying R-22s since and enjoy them much more than 300s. Cruise in a 300 is slow in my opinion, and feels strange because you're staring at the ground with your neck craned up to look forward. The stick forces on the Robbie are lighter, partially negating the need for any trim anyway. The Robbie is tight for a big person, but can be more comfortable to some (like me).
The time to solo a 300 will be less than that to be ready to solo an R-22, and if that time is less than 20 hrs, maybe doing it in the 300 or at least starting in one is better. If you're going to do your training where both are available, why not try each? You'll likely feel more in control with the 300 at first, but maybe later you'll have more fun with the Robbie.
As you can see from the posts above, everyone has their favorite. You'll have to try it out to know yours. Good luck!
I started on the 300C (it was all that was available in the area). I got to the point of soloing (~9 hrs) and after getting half an hour solo time in the 300, I had to go back to school where Robbies were the only option. I've been flying R-22s since and enjoy them much more than 300s. Cruise in a 300 is slow in my opinion, and feels strange because you're staring at the ground with your neck craned up to look forward. The stick forces on the Robbie are lighter, partially negating the need for any trim anyway. The Robbie is tight for a big person, but can be more comfortable to some (like me).
The time to solo a 300 will be less than that to be ready to solo an R-22, and if that time is less than 20 hrs, maybe doing it in the 300 or at least starting in one is better. If you're going to do your training where both are available, why not try each? You'll likely feel more in control with the 300 at first, but maybe later you'll have more fun with the Robbie.
As you can see from the posts above, everyone has their favorite. You'll have to try it out to know yours. Good luck!
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Arm the Floats is correct about the 300 in auto hovers and auto landings. If you want to practice autorotative landings and you feel this is important to your overall flight skills development, then the 300 is the only way to go, as the Robbie is very unforgiving in this area. The 300 gives you the opportunity to perfect this skill, while the R22 does not.
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Safe flying to you...
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Safe flying to you...
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Training Helicopters
OK Rotorheads, What helicopter did you learn to fly in? What did you like or dislike about that ship?
For Me I leaned in a Bell 47-G2A1. I feel it's a streight forward, forgiving helicopter but can require a bit maintainance.
For Me I leaned in a Bell 47-G2A1. I feel it's a streight forward, forgiving helicopter but can require a bit maintainance.
