Hovering

[megan]

I hope those old Huey throttle's were more like Schweizers than Robbys

Have no idea about Robby or Schweizer throttles Robbiee, you'd have absolutely no trouble with the Huey, could adjust the level of friction.

The other strange one to me was doing all of my Comm exams based on a King Air 200

You'd hate it Oz then, for a Helo ATPL you had to study pressurisation and Boeing 767 EFIS.

[john_tullamarine]

you had to study pressurisation and Boeing 767 EFIS.

But that was relevant (sometimes). When Abeles and Murdoch were actively involved in doing RM some mischief, they sold his helo (VH-AND) out from underneath him so he couldn't commute to the city any longer. Cal found himself without a steed and ended up on the same B727 course as me whenever back in the day. (Or was it the B737 (?) too long ago to be sure .. one or the other).

[Bell_ringer]

Originally Posted by Hangarless

The other strange one to me was doing all of my Comm exams based on a King Air 200.

That changed a few years later to be a Longranger.
For the most part, they removed fixed wing specific content from the rotary exams, though a few still snuck through.

[JohnDixson]

At the US Army Primary Flight School at Ft Wolters 1962, my OH-23D instructor used a technique I haven’t seen cited in this thread-he used a stick. Issued a verbal instruction and then, if you didn’t do it exactly perfect it would be tap-tap-tap-tap on your helmet. Honest.

[CayleysCoachman]

There are a few possibilities: first, you are just taking a very long time and it will come eventually if you keep doing what you’re doing and don’t lose patience; second, you are making one or more fundamental error(s) (probably regarding where and how you are looking during the exercise) and when corrected you’ll be able to do it; third, you’re just not wired to fly a helicopter and golf or fly-fishing will be better pursuits.

The first possibility will require patience. The third will require resignation (and a book about golf, or fly-fishing). The middle one is the important one, because the key is in finding a different instructor, ideally someone very well trained and able, not necessarily enormously experienced. In my instructing career I repeatedly came across people like you who simply had undiagnosed bad habits. With those corrected, they progressed. It’s good to read that your present instructor has some helpful qualities, but you need a second opinion. If the south of England is convenient to you I could make a personal recommendation, PM me if you’d like the info (it’s an ex-ETPS instructor with whom I’ve flown a fair bit; very sharp indeed).

[That lights normal!]

As above - where/what looking.
The earlier you can see a tiny pitch/roll change, the smaller the control input required, to stop/correct that pitch/roll change and prevent it becoming aircraft movement.
So you have to be looking at something that equates to cabin attitude and horizon. Eg the compass and the tree tops.
Once the AC is moving, it requires a bigger control/attitude input to stop, then a second input to re-select the hovering attitude.

[Hangarless]

To me it was really all about developing a feel and connection with the machine and then to react without thinking ahead of time what I had to do. Unfortunately it takes time.

The exercise that I found helped me the most was doing repeated quick stops as it taught me how to make the movements, often quite large ones, all in tune with each other in order to perform a smooth stop.

[megan]

Issued a verbal instruction and then, if you didn’t do it exactly perfect it would be tap-tap-tap-tap on your helmet. Honest.

Training in a tandem seat aircraft on a particular squadron it was said that a foul up would have some instructors undoing their straps, leaning forward out of their seat and belting the student on the head with a knee board. No personal experience, I made my share of foul ups, must have had gracious instructors. Rumours abounded of instructor antics, one that had currency at the time (1967) I never believed, until I came across the following on the Tube a couple of years ago.

You Tube

You Tube

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by JohnDixson

At the US Army Primary Flight School at Ft Wolters 1962, my OH-23D instructor used a technique I haven’t seen cited in this thread-he used a stick. Issued a verbal instruction and then, if you didn’t do it exactly perfect it would be tap-tap-tap-tap on your helmet. Honest.

Flying Selection Squadron (FSS) RAF Swinderby 1982 - we sat in the front seat of the Chipmunk with the instructor behind and we wore those old cloth helmets with a pigtail down the back for the intercom. My instructor used to highlight any inadequacies of my lookout by grabbing the pigtail and yanking my head from side to side shouting I - SAID - LOOK - OUT!

Ah the good old days...........

[Democritus]

At least at RAF Linton-on-Ouse in 1964 on Chipmunks we wore the two part headgear, cloth inner and separate hard shell. That made the belts on the head from the instructor more acceptable when associated with the words "Do --- it --- properly --- this --- time!"

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by JohnDixson

At the US Army Primary Flight School at Ft Wolters 1962, my OH-23D instructor used a technique I haven’t seen cited in this thread-he used a stick. Issued a verbal instruction and then, if you didn’t do it exactly perfect it would be tap-tap-tap-tap on your helmet. Honest.

You turned out pretty well, John.
Maybe we should investigate old school training and see if we can learn anything from it.

[JohnDixson]

Not so sure about that LW: It got to the point where the folks who had trouble flying/decided it wasn’t for them etc had departed and I was the only one who had not soloed. I was worried. This IP was a bit off-the best climb speed for the Hiller was 40kt. If I let the needled move off 40 to 41 or 42-there’d be the drumbeating on my helmet etc. Anyhow the next day after the daily briefing and we were getting ready to go out, the flight commander came over to our table and said, “ Dixson, you’ll be flying with me today “ Double uh-oh-everyone else he flew with had disappeared. So, I started up the ship. The Flt CO didn’t say a word except to get me out onto the flight field. Told me to stay in the pattern, had me do three loops around the circuit , unbuckled, got out, and told me to do three circuits and then come see him..
Did all that and went into his office and he told me I’d be getting a different IP. Couple of weeks later my former IP disappeared. The IP I was then assigned to was excellent, as was the IP I got at Rucker in the S-55. Well, except for the blade stall demo and the settling with power routine ( before anyone used the VRS terminology. Those two subjects I had to teach myself ( very carefully ) while doing solo flights at the Test Board. (Test Board had two H-19s which I could fly anytime I wanted to ).

[PlasticCabDriver]

Originally Posted by megan

.You'd hate it Oz then, for a Helo ATPL you had to study pressurisation and Boeing 767 EFIS.

Same back when the UK had the mil to civilian accreditation scheme. There was no RW bridging package, so we did the FW one. I have found knowing about oxygen generators, fire axes and the North Atlantic Track System to be a great help in my rotary career.

[Bug]

Originally Posted by JohnDixson

At the US Army Primary Flight School at Ft Wolters 1962, my OH-23D instructor used a technique I haven’t seen cited in this thread-he used a stick. Issued a verbal instruction and then, if you didn’t do it exactly perfect it would be tap-tap-tap-tap on your helmet. Honest.

Russian version -

You Tube

[OldDog4NewTricks]

Thanks again for all the tips, I apologise I am unable to "Like" your posts maybe because I am a newbie I dont have that function.
When I finally crack it Ill be sure to let you know!
Back at it today and next week have 6 hours of lessons booked in over next 7 days so fingers crossed Ill get it!
I font fancy Golf or FlyFishing as my retirement hobby!

[OldDog4NewTricks]

Well, I can finally hover, it aint pretty sometimes but its a hover!
Thanks again for all who took time to offer advice in the end what seemed to help most was my hand position on the cyclic and not overthinking also working out the difference between what can be sorted with the pedals rather than trying to sort out everything with cyclic!
Anyway for anyone else in the future who is having same issues You will get there, if I can you can!
Now Im enjoying transitions and circuits woop woop!

[cavuman1]

Well done, OldDog4NewTricks! The instructor who taught me to hover, no matter how clumsily, said: "Think about a monkey f***ing a football." That about covers it.

- Ed

[filicopter]

Originally Posted by OldDog4NewTricks

Well, I can finally hover, it aint pretty sometimes but its a hover!
Thanks again for all who took time to offer advice in the end what seemed to help most was my hand position on the cyclic and not overthinking also working out the difference between what can be sorted with the pedals rather than trying to sort out everything with cyclic!
Anyway for anyone else in the future who is having same issues You will get there, if I can you can!
Now Im enjoying transitions and circuits woop woop!

It will get prettier all the time. It probably is starting to feel so simple you are wondering why you ever had a problem (or at least it will soon).

Now you can fly without having to go anywhere. It is an amazing thing! You just don't get the same smiling feeling from golf or fly fishing.

[Pilot DAR]

Good job OldDog! My instructor taught me to look far away, not close to the helicopter, and he was right, much better field of view and sense of motion. During type training in the MD500, I had occasion to need to pick up into the hover just outside the hangar. The door was closed, and I was looking at its entirely featureless brown surface. I realized as I began to pick up that I had no sense of position whatever. I set back down, and suggested that maybe my mentor would do this one, which he did with grace. I probably would have been fine, but we were a long way from home, it was not the time/place to make an error. Let your view of as much world as possible help you orient yourself!

[Agile]

Originally Posted by OldDog4NewTricks

also working out the difference between what can be sorted with the pedals rather than trying to sort out everything with cyclic!

That is a very good point that nobody mentioned, back 40+ year ago, I was flying RC helicopters, it was a pioneer product at the time, hovering them was utmostly difficult, spent days after days, week after week practicing.
All the senior in my group were saying, buy a gyroscope, buy a gyroscope...
I finally saved enough money to buy a Gyroscope made in Germany ($1000 in the 80s), a metal spinning wheel with sensing electronic to negative feedback the servo that controls the tail.
it made a world of difference, once the tail was sorted out, everything was better!

it’s true with full size helicopter too, you want to see who is a good pilot, look at the tail.

one last note: for most Heli the tail rotor axis is below the rotor plane, that means that any rough input on the tail will affect your roll axis stability, only small inputs please
especially toward touch down, the AS350 for example is very sensitive to that induced wobble for novice, because the pedal are naturally reactive and the pedal lateral stability cross coupling is strong.