Hovering
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 239
Likes: 50
From: San Diego, CA
OP said he's training on an R44. That's much harder for a student to fly than a R22 because the controls are so extremely light and sensitive. Even after I had essentially 'mastered' basic flight in an R22, it took me quite a while to get the hang of the 44. Frankly, even after over 400 R44 hours, I still sometimes struggle to set it down as cleanly as I'd like.
What I found helped was being slow - if for example you're drifting left, do NOT try to add enough right cyclic to immediately stop the drift because you'll just drift right. Instead, add a tiny bit of right cyclic and see what happens. Probably you'll stop drifting after a second or two. Then you can add a touch more to drift right to get back to your spot, then a tad left to stop the drift. Overcontrolling is extremely common.
An alternative, albeit not optimal, technique is to basically deliberately shake the cyclic back and forth a bit, which reduces lift but it can be easier for your brain to average out the inputs if your hand is constantly moving, rather than trying to keep it rock-still. I still do that sometimes when setting it down, especially after a long cross-country flight since my landings get a bit sloppier at that point.
What I found helped was being slow - if for example you're drifting left, do NOT try to add enough right cyclic to immediately stop the drift because you'll just drift right. Instead, add a tiny bit of right cyclic and see what happens. Probably you'll stop drifting after a second or two. Then you can add a touch more to drift right to get back to your spot, then a tad left to stop the drift. Overcontrolling is extremely common.
An alternative, albeit not optimal, technique is to basically deliberately shake the cyclic back and forth a bit, which reduces lift but it can be easier for your brain to average out the inputs if your hand is constantly moving, rather than trying to keep it rock-still. I still do that sometimes when setting it down, especially after a long cross-country flight since my landings get a bit sloppier at that point.
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 446
Likes: 100
From: South East Asia
one of the good advice I received that helped me back then was: do not think the cyclic in terms of displacement, think the cyclic in terms of pressure, and let your brain feed back the pressure between your hand and the stick, not the actual displacement of the stick.
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
What I found helped was being slow - if for example you're drifting left, do NOT try to add enough right cyclic to immediately stop the drift because you'll just drift right. Instead, add a tiny bit of right cyclic and see what happens. Probably you'll stop drifting after a second or two. Then you can add a touch more to drift right to get back to your spot, then a tad left to stop the drift. Overcontrolling is extremely common.
Reacting to the movement over the ground is much less effective than reacting to a change in the hover attitude - hence people who can hover well make small, gentle cyclic movements in reaction to seeing the aircraft attitude change away from the hover one.
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,371
Likes: 926
From: Den Haag
Reacting to the movement over the ground is much less effective than reacting to a change in the hover attitude - hence people who can hover well make small, gentle cyclic movements in reaction to seeing the aircraft attitude change away from the hover one.
Joined: Sep 2023
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 219
Likes: 99
From: Montana
Don't feel alone as majority of students likely found themselves in exactly the same position.For me it was the same.
After a morning session of white knuckles, stick stirring, sweating and swearing my instructor suggested I come back later in the afternoon after having a little sip or two of the devils dew.It was fully legal back then to have some reading in your system.
Off we went later that day and at first re-attempt at all just came into place and I never looked back from there.I remember the day as if it were yesterday.
It was a little bit harder for me because I learnt to fly on an Enstrom 280 which had no governor or correlator to help me keep the disc within rev limits when making collective changes.To this day I believe that it made me a better pilot.
It felt very strange to me in the beginning, when flying a turbine, not to have to think about winding the throttle on or off and it took a while to get used to it. Doing turbine governor failure training was easy for me as I was entirely used to making subtle throttle changes when moving the collective up or down.
I flew many types over the years but always looked forward to hopping into the Enstrom 280 to go out and play on the training square.
I am living proof that almost anyone can be taught to fly.
After a morning session of white knuckles, stick stirring, sweating and swearing my instructor suggested I come back later in the afternoon after having a little sip or two of the devils dew.It was fully legal back then to have some reading in your system.
Off we went later that day and at first re-attempt at all just came into place and I never looked back from there.I remember the day as if it were yesterday.
It was a little bit harder for me because I learnt to fly on an Enstrom 280 which had no governor or correlator to help me keep the disc within rev limits when making collective changes.To this day I believe that it made me a better pilot.
It felt very strange to me in the beginning, when flying a turbine, not to have to think about winding the throttle on or off and it took a while to get used to it. Doing turbine governor failure training was easy for me as I was entirely used to making subtle throttle changes when moving the collective up or down.
I flew many types over the years but always looked forward to hopping into the Enstrom 280 to go out and play on the training square.
I am living proof that almost anyone can be taught to fly.
Guest
Joined: Jul 2017
Aviation Qualifications: Spotter
Posts: 840
Likes: 236
From: UK
An alternative, albeit not optimal, technique is to basically deliberately shake the cyclic back and forth a bit,
I see pilots all the time that seem to think you need to constantly move the cyclic when hovering a robinson. IT IS NOT NECESSARY
Joined: Sep 2023
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 219
Likes: 99
From: Montana
Old Habits Die Hard
This thread is bringing back many happy memories to me and it really shows that we wing flingers end up as brotherhood because of these experiences and challenges that many of us shared when learning to fly.
Throughout my time flying, I always returned to my ab initio instructor to do my annual check ride, in the Enstrom, despite the fact that our company had our own DE where I could have used a variety of machines that we owned to do the renewal. It just felt good to me to be back flying with him and I always looked forward to it.
He and I would go out and do advanced safety training with the Enstrom which many know is built like a sherman tank and it can absorb quite a bit of abuse because of the ruggedness of its skids. He had thousands of hours on the machine and he would teach me several ways of doing emergency procedures tin ways that were not described in the manual. Many of the maneuvers required the ability to wind the throttle on and off, sometimes quite abruptly, in order to put the machine down under control.
The Enstrom also ,mainly because of its sluggishness and stability ,was also a fantastic machine on which to learn how to learn vertical referencing and slinging. Even when flying turbines I preferred to add a bit of friction to the cyclic to try and emulate the stick feel of the Enstrom.
Throughout my time flying, I always returned to my ab initio instructor to do my annual check ride, in the Enstrom, despite the fact that our company had our own DE where I could have used a variety of machines that we owned to do the renewal. It just felt good to me to be back flying with him and I always looked forward to it.
He and I would go out and do advanced safety training with the Enstrom which many know is built like a sherman tank and it can absorb quite a bit of abuse because of the ruggedness of its skids. He had thousands of hours on the machine and he would teach me several ways of doing emergency procedures tin ways that were not described in the manual. Many of the maneuvers required the ability to wind the throttle on and off, sometimes quite abruptly, in order to put the machine down under control.
The Enstrom also ,mainly because of its sluggishness and stability ,was also a fantastic machine on which to learn how to learn vertical referencing and slinging. Even when flying turbines I preferred to add a bit of friction to the cyclic to try and emulate the stick feel of the Enstrom.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 189
From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
This is the verbiage taken directly from Bell Helicopter Operations Safety Notice relating to control abuse
13 SEPTE"MBER 1976
OSN GEN-76-4
ALL OPERATORS
HEAVY LIFT, AFT CENTER OF GRAVITY, PROLONGED HOVER, CYCLIC CONTROL ABUSE
IN-FLIGHT PILOT HANDLING TECH#NIQUES ARE BEING ADDRESSED HERE AS THEY DIRECTLY RELATE TO ABNORMAL DRIVE SHAFT DEFLECTION.
OBSERVATION OF 205A-l FIELD FLIGHT OPERATIONS BY BHT PERSONNEL, IN WHICH INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL LOADS WERE INVOLVED SHOWED A NEARLY CROSS-THE-BOARD ABUSE OF CYCLIC CONTROL DURING OGE HOVERING, TAKE-OFFS AND ON PRECISION APPROACHES. THE GREATEST CONTROL ABUSE WAS INVOLVED DURING VERTICAL REFERENCE WORK, WHERE PILOTS FOUND THAT EXTREMELY LARGE, FAST CYCLIC DISPLACEMENTS WOULD ALLOW THE SAME PRECISION IN OGE HOVERING WORK AS WOULD NORMAL, GENTLE CYCLIC DISPLACEMENTS. THOUGH IT MAY BE EASIER TO FLY IN THIS MANNER THE CONSTANT ABNORMAL PYLON MOTION INDUCED BY THE OVER-CONTROLLING MAY EXCEED DRIVE SHAFT DEFLECTION LIMITS AND CREATE A POTENTIAL HAZARD OF PREMATURE ENGINE TO TRANSMISSION DRIVE SHAFT FAILURE.
PILOTS MUST CONSCIENTIOUSLY ADHERE TO NORMAL CONTROL MOVEMENTS. DO NOT ALLOW STICK STIRRING OR CONSTANT ABRUPT INPUTS TO CREATE A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS SITUATION. IT NOT ONLY REFLECTS POOR PILOT CONTROL STICK TECHNIQUES BUT COULD RESULT IN UNNECESSARY INJURY TO BOTH PERSONNEL AND EQUIPMENT.
OSN GEN-76-4
ALL OPERATORS
HEAVY LIFT, AFT CENTER OF GRAVITY, PROLONGED HOVER, CYCLIC CONTROL ABUSE
IN-FLIGHT PILOT HANDLING TECH#NIQUES ARE BEING ADDRESSED HERE AS THEY DIRECTLY RELATE TO ABNORMAL DRIVE SHAFT DEFLECTION.
OBSERVATION OF 205A-l FIELD FLIGHT OPERATIONS BY BHT PERSONNEL, IN WHICH INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL LOADS WERE INVOLVED SHOWED A NEARLY CROSS-THE-BOARD ABUSE OF CYCLIC CONTROL DURING OGE HOVERING, TAKE-OFFS AND ON PRECISION APPROACHES. THE GREATEST CONTROL ABUSE WAS INVOLVED DURING VERTICAL REFERENCE WORK, WHERE PILOTS FOUND THAT EXTREMELY LARGE, FAST CYCLIC DISPLACEMENTS WOULD ALLOW THE SAME PRECISION IN OGE HOVERING WORK AS WOULD NORMAL, GENTLE CYCLIC DISPLACEMENTS. THOUGH IT MAY BE EASIER TO FLY IN THIS MANNER THE CONSTANT ABNORMAL PYLON MOTION INDUCED BY THE OVER-CONTROLLING MAY EXCEED DRIVE SHAFT DEFLECTION LIMITS AND CREATE A POTENTIAL HAZARD OF PREMATURE ENGINE TO TRANSMISSION DRIVE SHAFT FAILURE.
PILOTS MUST CONSCIENTIOUSLY ADHERE TO NORMAL CONTROL MOVEMENTS. DO NOT ALLOW STICK STIRRING OR CONSTANT ABRUPT INPUTS TO CREATE A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS SITUATION. IT NOT ONLY REFLECTS POOR PILOT CONTROL STICK TECHNIQUES BUT COULD RESULT IN UNNECESSARY INJURY TO BOTH PERSONNEL AND EQUIPMENT.
Joined: Sep 2018
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 888
Likes: 65
From: California
Those Robby throttle's are too damn tight for constant manual flight. Not like the Schweizer and Enstrom whose throttle's are nice and light, allowing for a soft touch.
If I had to roll the 22's throttle everytime, I'd bring in a can of WD40 and spray wholly Hell out of it.
Joined: Sep 2002
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,721
Likes: 636
From: Great South East, tired and retired
Gordy, I rode with some very skilled longline pilots in B212 doing things like positioning towers for the chairlift in Northern Queensland, and putting the "AMP" signs on top of Sydney Tower after the Olympic statues of athletic sports were taken down.
The thing that surprised me was how accurate they were in positioning things 200' below the skids (and with the hover reference 1000' below, in the case of Sydney Tower) but also how the cyclic was battering me around the knees to hold position. So, the comments from Bell are true in that respect.
I have also seen junior pilots in the Huey (<500 hrs) "sawing" the cyclic back and forth on approach to landing. And I have seen VERY experienced pilots throw the aircraft around - one of them became known as "Chuck", because most of his passengers did so.
Robbiee, in my school, use of the governor was restricted to nav trips, where the left hand was holding maps or making notes. Otherwise, it was relying on the correlator (surprisingly good) and small adjustments of the throttle to keep the RPM where they should be. Back in the Bad Old Days, we also had to be proficient in using manual throttle in the turbines of the Hueys before we went solo. Anticipation was the key - small throttle movement followed by small lever movement, up or down. Had to fly a circuit in manual fuel from hover to hover.
The thing that surprised me was how accurate they were in positioning things 200' below the skids (and with the hover reference 1000' below, in the case of Sydney Tower) but also how the cyclic was battering me around the knees to hold position. So, the comments from Bell are true in that respect.
I have also seen junior pilots in the Huey (<500 hrs) "sawing" the cyclic back and forth on approach to landing. And I have seen VERY experienced pilots throw the aircraft around - one of them became known as "Chuck", because most of his passengers did so.
Robbiee, in my school, use of the governor was restricted to nav trips, where the left hand was holding maps or making notes. Otherwise, it was relying on the correlator (surprisingly good) and small adjustments of the throttle to keep the RPM where they should be. Back in the Bad Old Days, we also had to be proficient in using manual throttle in the turbines of the Hueys before we went solo. Anticipation was the key - small throttle movement followed by small lever movement, up or down. Had to fly a circuit in manual fuel from hover to hover.
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
The only accurate part was how it is difficult it can be in the early stages to differentiate between a yaw and lateral drift.
Joined: Sep 2018
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 888
Likes: 65
From: California
Robbiee, in my school, use of the governor was restricted to nav trips, where the left hand was holding maps or making notes. Otherwise, it was relying on the correlator (surprisingly good) and small adjustments of the throttle to keep the RPM where they should be. Back in the Bad Old Days, we also had to be proficient in using manual throttle in the turbines of the Hueys before we went solo. Anticipation was the key - small throttle movement followed by small lever movement, up or down. Had to fly a circuit in manual fuel from hover to hover.
Rolling the throttle is the one thing (and I mean ONLY thing, lol) I actually liked better in the Schweizer.
I hope those old Huey throttle's were more like Schweizers than Robbys.
Joined: Sep 2023
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 219
Likes: 99
From: Montana
Hovering and winding the clock
You might ask why winding the clock ?
In the mid 2000s there was a spat between the FAA and the South African CAA that ended up with the CAA forcing all SA Comm holders to pass a FAA CRM course.
Our group of eight or so heli pilots were grouped together with about 30 newly qualified Air School fixed wingers.
The lecturer who was an age timed out and retired SAA Chief Pilot gave the lecture but he seemed much more focused in talking to the junior about his airline career especially what they did on night stops.
Eventually we got to the emergencies section of the lecture.The lecture began .......when there is an emergency, first the Captain should remain calm and wind the clock and the FO should get to the check list out and then they should go through the procedures specified.
Our guys were by now thoroughly bored and quiet as most of us were used to single pilot operation and totally uninterested in his flying career.The lecturer noticed this and when he got to the end of the section he looked at us noting we were quiet and not really participating and he asked if any of us had any had any questions.
It was a big mistake as one in our group, and old Angolan Border War pilot with about 12 000 hrs to his name calmly asked, Sir I don't mean to funny but how do I , if I am alone, wind the clock and then pull the manual out from under my seat to find the check list that tells me what to do when the donkey fails on my B3 while I am in a high hover with a bucket of concrete slung below me because at that point I will most definitely need one hand on the collective and the other on the cyclic to try and save myself.
Naturally there was silence for a while and then the lecturer garbled out a non sensical statement and said he had no solutions as he had never flown a helicopter.
Obviously he had been embarrassed in front of the juniors and he quickly got through the rest of the course without any further descriptions of his personal experiences.
It is just another of the things that to me show the humorous differences between heli and fixed wing piloting.
The other strange one to me was doing all of my Comm exams based on a King Air 200.
Really goes to show that in todays world it is all about ticking a box that makes a computer happy no matter how non sensical the situation is.
In the mid 2000s there was a spat between the FAA and the South African CAA that ended up with the CAA forcing all SA Comm holders to pass a FAA CRM course.
Our group of eight or so heli pilots were grouped together with about 30 newly qualified Air School fixed wingers.
The lecturer who was an age timed out and retired SAA Chief Pilot gave the lecture but he seemed much more focused in talking to the junior about his airline career especially what they did on night stops.
Eventually we got to the emergencies section of the lecture.The lecture began .......when there is an emergency, first the Captain should remain calm and wind the clock and the FO should get to the check list out and then they should go through the procedures specified.
Our guys were by now thoroughly bored and quiet as most of us were used to single pilot operation and totally uninterested in his flying career.The lecturer noticed this and when he got to the end of the section he looked at us noting we were quiet and not really participating and he asked if any of us had any had any questions.
It was a big mistake as one in our group, and old Angolan Border War pilot with about 12 000 hrs to his name calmly asked, Sir I don't mean to funny but how do I , if I am alone, wind the clock and then pull the manual out from under my seat to find the check list that tells me what to do when the donkey fails on my B3 while I am in a high hover with a bucket of concrete slung below me because at that point I will most definitely need one hand on the collective and the other on the cyclic to try and save myself.
Naturally there was silence for a while and then the lecturer garbled out a non sensical statement and said he had no solutions as he had never flown a helicopter.
Obviously he had been embarrassed in front of the juniors and he quickly got through the rest of the course without any further descriptions of his personal experiences.
It is just another of the things that to me show the humorous differences between heli and fixed wing piloting.
The other strange one to me was doing all of my Comm exams based on a King Air 200.
Really goes to show that in todays world it is all about ticking a box that makes a computer happy no matter how non sensical the situation is.