NPAS News 2024
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 3
From: Escrick York england
I am amazed at the total waste of money from a government organisation in relation to hangars surely the npas had some agreements with peel and other airfield owners was there ever some compensation made . There was the also the new buildings at Sheffield that was peel also
I have not commented on the fixed wing on purpose
I have not commented on the fixed wing on purpose
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 135
Likes: 0
From: Devon
NPAS
Any news on who will be running NPAS after West Yorks pulls the plug? BTP with a central control room maybe?
Not heard much since the "request for information" re drones contract last year.
https://www.unmannedairspace.info/ci...-future-usage/
Not heard much since the "request for information" re drones contract last year.
https://www.unmannedairspace.info/ci...-future-usage/
Joined: Dec 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 880
Likes: 38
From: Once a Squirrel Heaven (or hell!), Shropshire UK
Well wonders never cease. An actual NPAS aircraft making lazy circles over Shrewsbury - well an awful lot of quite tight orbits. Don't often see the fixed wing brigade over here but whatever they are looking for you can't help but think a helicopter would have been an awful lot better for a search in the relatively small area it is searching. Just hope the wind doesn't catch him out when turning downwind, and the crew don't get too dizzy!
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
No news on any front at the moment. A few of the potentially intelligent and knowledgable have moved on to retirement and other fields of endeavour.
we might be forgiven for thinking that there is no movement forward simply because NPAS have said and done absolutely nothing in the last year [including the easy bit of issuing minutes and reports on their progress]. not only is BVLOS moribund but so is the seeking of new airframes for The Met and the main fleet.
we might be forgiven for thinking that there is no movement forward simply because NPAS have said and done absolutely nothing in the last year [including the easy bit of issuing minutes and reports on their progress]. not only is BVLOS moribund but so is the seeking of new airframes for The Met and the main fleet.
Joined: Sep 2023
Posts: 41
Likes: 6
From: United Kingdom
It almost seems like part of the NPAS vision is to eliminate the rotary fleet outside of London or at least drastically reduce its size. Are they planning to primarily use drones, supplementing them with fixed-wing aircraft for searching large areas or extended endurance? I seriously cannot imagine why else procuring new aircraft seems to be making no progress after literal years.
It's astonishing how often some bases are completely offline due to a lack of available airframes that are not undergoing deep maintenance, even after reintroducing POLU into the NPAS role and colours. BHX has been offline for an extended period while POLJ is in maintenance at Oxford, and Hawarden has had no aircraft consistently for months, with fleet spares occasionally filling in. I'm almost certain Bristol was without HEOI for a considerable period as well. In its current form, NPAS seems unsustainable. It would be interesting to see their response to a Freedom of Information request about how many NPAS requests were declined due to no available aircraft. However, I imagine they might withhold that information for various reasons.
I believe helicopters are a significant deterrent and are extremely effective in their role when deployed. I certainly feel safer seeing them out and about. It's a shame they are being managed so horrendously.
It's astonishing how often some bases are completely offline due to a lack of available airframes that are not undergoing deep maintenance, even after reintroducing POLU into the NPAS role and colours. BHX has been offline for an extended period while POLJ is in maintenance at Oxford, and Hawarden has had no aircraft consistently for months, with fleet spares occasionally filling in. I'm almost certain Bristol was without HEOI for a considerable period as well. In its current form, NPAS seems unsustainable. It would be interesting to see their response to a Freedom of Information request about how many NPAS requests were declined due to no available aircraft. However, I imagine they might withhold that information for various reasons.
I believe helicopters are a significant deterrent and are extremely effective in their role when deployed. I certainly feel safer seeing them out and about. It's a shame they are being managed so horrendously.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
I understand that a recent meeting of the NPAS Strategic Board arrived at a decision to cancel Lot 2 of the replacement aircraft programme - the Met Police element of the tender process.
I am awaiting a statement from NPAS as there is nothing 'out there' that I have found to confirm that yet.
If you recall NPAS tried to delete this part of the tender before but ended up wasting money on barristers not planes before losing the case.
I assume that this meeting was the one held in June. There is no longer an indication of when the meetings are held or are expected to be held on the NPAS website. Despite assurances in the past to government bodies and the National Audit Office the NPAS website still does not provide access to its meetings despite a proven need and duty. So everything is about second guessing them.
I am awaiting a statement from NPAS as there is nothing 'out there' that I have found to confirm that yet.
If you recall NPAS tried to delete this part of the tender before but ended up wasting money on barristers not planes before losing the case.
I assume that this meeting was the one held in June. There is no longer an indication of when the meetings are held or are expected to be held on the NPAS website. Despite assurances in the past to government bodies and the National Audit Office the NPAS website still does not provide access to its meetings despite a proven need and duty. So everything is about second guessing them.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
I suspect that it might be a reversion to Lot 3 in effect. Additional aircraft added to cover the shortfall.
I have asked NPAS but there is no instant answer as [this morning] they say they have to consult with Bluelight before replying. That suggests the original information is correct but now we await the slant of the reply.
I have asked NPAS but there is no instant answer as [this morning] they say they have to consult with Bluelight before replying. That suggests the original information is correct but now we await the slant of the reply.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,130
Likes: 56
From: Anglia
“the 135 is new but the 145 is old school, its still certified as a BK117 and requires BK maintenance [BCARS]. Where a (good new) 135 can still be expected to sail through a maintenance in 5 days (if you have PBH intact) the 145 (and several of its competitors) is going to take 2 weeks or more even when new. That messes with the sums when there are few spare airframes around.”
Speaking as an engineer - saying that the 145 is old school is like saying the B737MAX is old because it still has 737 attached to it. The newish EC145/H145 was a different beast to the original BK117A and is certainly much better developed than the 135’s latest revision. Another guffaw is the reference to BCARs? ALL maintenance is done iaw the current OEM manuals and current regulations and even when the 355’s were in service the only maintenance reference to BCARS was ah approved reference number - everything else was OEM & EASA/CAA Part 145 which (still) exceeds the BCAR requirements.
Secondly, the thought that a couple of engineers can be magic’d in a few months is a final guffaw. There is a greater shortage of engineers than flight crew -and they all now know their worth. In the last four years in a well known helicopter maintenance base I have seen just two new CAA licences issued for helicopter engineers…at B1 level - not B2….
I too am giving up the helicopter world for a late retirement.
Speaking as an engineer - saying that the 145 is old school is like saying the B737MAX is old because it still has 737 attached to it. The newish EC145/H145 was a different beast to the original BK117A and is certainly much better developed than the 135’s latest revision. Another guffaw is the reference to BCARs? ALL maintenance is done iaw the current OEM manuals and current regulations and even when the 355’s were in service the only maintenance reference to BCARS was ah approved reference number - everything else was OEM & EASA/CAA Part 145 which (still) exceeds the BCAR requirements.
Secondly, the thought that a couple of engineers can be magic’d in a few months is a final guffaw. There is a greater shortage of engineers than flight crew -and they all now know their worth. In the last four years in a well known helicopter maintenance base I have seen just two new CAA licences issued for helicopter engineers…at B1 level - not B2….
I too am giving up the helicopter world for a late retirement.
Last edited by Rigga; 12th July 2024 at 17:35.
Joined: Dec 2001
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 1,286
Likes: 20
From: I have no idea but the view's great.
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 142
From: Warrington, UK
Here are the stats for the year 2023/24 for those still interested. Flying hours are down, but only slightly, apart from the Fixed Wing which are down by a third from last year. All but two Forces are paying more than last year.
The way that NPAS charges Forces is still a mystery. Although they don't charge on a per Actioned Call basis, it's a handy way of comparing, so Norfolk paid the equivalent of £15,387 for their 18 Actioned Calls, whereas Gwent paid £1486 for their 449. I shall try asking NPAS again.
The way that NPAS charges Forces is still a mystery. Although they don't charge on a per Actioned Call basis, it's a handy way of comparing, so Norfolk paid the equivalent of £15,387 for their 18 Actioned Calls, whereas Gwent paid £1486 for their 449. I shall try asking NPAS again.
Joined: Aug 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 206
From: SW England
Thanks for that, MG. Sad to see that the days of the W Mids unit being given an increase from 1200 to 1400 hours/year - to allow proactive patrolling in addition to other tasking (with any bobby authorised to call for heli support) are long gone. It was invaluable "keeping an eye out for you", as well as support for neighbouring forces (as far away as Devon/Cornwall) who didn't have 24-hour cover.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: central England
“the 135 is new but the 145 is old school, its still certified as a BK117 and requires BK maintenance [BCARS]. Where a (good new) 135 can still be expected to sail through a maintenance in 5 days (if you have PBH intact) the 145 (and several of its competitors) is going to take 2 weeks or more even when new. That messes with the sums when there are few spare airframes around.”
Speaking as an engineer - saying that the 145 is old school is like saying the B737MAX is old because it still has 737 attached to it. The newish EC145/H145 was a different beast to the original BK117A and is certainly much better developed than the 135’s latest revision. Another guffaw is the reference to BCARs? ALL maintenance is done iaw the current OEM manuals and current regulations and even when the 355’s were in service the only maintenance reference to BCARS was ah approved reference number - everything else was OEM & EASA/CAA Part 145 which (still) exceeds the BCAR requirements.
Secondly, the thought that a couple of engineers can be magic’d in a few months is a final guffaw. There is a greater shortage of engineers than flight crew -and they all now know their worth. In the last four years in a well known helicopter maintenance base I have seen just two new CAA licences issued for helicopter engineers…at B1 level - not B2….
I too am giving up the helicopter world for a late retirement.
Speaking as an engineer - saying that the 145 is old school is like saying the B737MAX is old because it still has 737 attached to it. The newish EC145/H145 was a different beast to the original BK117A and is certainly much better developed than the 135’s latest revision. Another guffaw is the reference to BCARs? ALL maintenance is done iaw the current OEM manuals and current regulations and even when the 355’s were in service the only maintenance reference to BCARS was ah approved reference number - everything else was OEM & EASA/CAA Part 145 which (still) exceeds the BCAR requirements.
Secondly, the thought that a couple of engineers can be magic’d in a few months is a final guffaw. There is a greater shortage of engineers than flight crew -and they all now know their worth. In the last four years in a well known helicopter maintenance base I have seen just two new CAA licences issued for helicopter engineers…at B1 level - not B2….
I too am giving up the helicopter world for a late retirement.
........
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,371
Likes: 926
From: Den Haag
Rigga, I love your posts and usually agree with them 100%........but as someone who works on the 135/145 everyday I much prefer the 135 from an engineering point of view. The 105 part numbers on the BK117s still make me chuckle.....at least the old left over Bolkow bits aren't being thrown away ........
........Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,937
Likes: 28
From: UK/OZ
For reference, this sub 250gram drone was launched over the Southport riot by an experienced aerial YouTuber. Whilst any live stream is 4k the replay on YouTube displays the high level of resolution.
The drone was flown in presence of a Polair unit.
Whilst the unmistakable audible presence of a helicopter is a deterrent, it's non presence is also clearly signaled!
In this regard frequent use of hard to see drones would be, to some degree a constant deterrent?
This gives rise to the double edged sword of permitting non police or rescue drones to share the airspace with media...
A news helicopter tracking the 90 minute nighttime pursuit in LA a few days ago reported that a consumer drone was tracking the suspect.(the vehicle was at times traveling very slowly) so probably a local launching for a laugh...
According to reports and a video, at least one Russian military helicopter was targeted and taken down by a drone, video indicating the tail rotor was the target.
Looking ng ahead, in civil applications, can tail rotors or fenistron be physically protected from a 250gram consumer FPV drone? Rumor has it that following previous failed attempts by Ukraine that Russian helicopters are developing airborn anti drone jamming system.
Mjb
The drone was flown in presence of a Polair unit.
Whilst the unmistakable audible presence of a helicopter is a deterrent, it's non presence is also clearly signaled!
In this regard frequent use of hard to see drones would be, to some degree a constant deterrent?
This gives rise to the double edged sword of permitting non police or rescue drones to share the airspace with media...
A news helicopter tracking the 90 minute nighttime pursuit in LA a few days ago reported that a consumer drone was tracking the suspect.(the vehicle was at times traveling very slowly) so probably a local launching for a laugh...
According to reports and a video, at least one Russian military helicopter was targeted and taken down by a drone, video indicating the tail rotor was the target.
Looking ng ahead, in civil applications, can tail rotors or fenistron be physically protected from a 250gram consumer FPV drone? Rumor has it that following previous failed attempts by Ukraine that Russian helicopters are developing airborn anti drone jamming system.
Mjb
Joined: Apr 2024
Posts: 46
Likes: 12
From: Wantage
For reference, this sub 250gram drone was launched over the Southport riot by an experienced aerial YouTuber. Whilst any live stream is 4k the replay on YouTube displays the high level of resolution.
The drone was flown in presence of a Polair unit.
Whilst the unmistakable audible presence of a helicopter is a deterrent, it's non presence is also clearly signaled!
In this regard frequent use of hard to see drones would be, to some degree a constant deterrent?
This gives rise to the double edged sword of permitting non police or rescue drones to share the airspace with media...
A news helicopter tracking the 90 minute nighttime pursuit in LA a few days ago reported that a consumer drone was tracking the suspect.(the vehicle was at times traveling very slowly) so probably a local launching for a laugh...
According to reports and a video, at least one Russian military helicopter was targeted and taken down by a drone, video indicating the tail rotor was the target.
Looking ng ahead, in civil applications, can tail rotors or fenistron be physically protected from a 250gram consumer FPV drone? Rumor has it that following previous failed attempts by Ukraine that Russian helicopters are developing airborn anti drone jamming system.
https://youtu.be/GPxJLqf3edI?si=lXAlhgrIvhofT0UF
Mjb
The drone was flown in presence of a Polair unit.
Whilst the unmistakable audible presence of a helicopter is a deterrent, it's non presence is also clearly signaled!
In this regard frequent use of hard to see drones would be, to some degree a constant deterrent?
This gives rise to the double edged sword of permitting non police or rescue drones to share the airspace with media...
A news helicopter tracking the 90 minute nighttime pursuit in LA a few days ago reported that a consumer drone was tracking the suspect.(the vehicle was at times traveling very slowly) so probably a local launching for a laugh...
According to reports and a video, at least one Russian military helicopter was targeted and taken down by a drone, video indicating the tail rotor was the target.
Looking ng ahead, in civil applications, can tail rotors or fenistron be physically protected from a 250gram consumer FPV drone? Rumor has it that following previous failed attempts by Ukraine that Russian helicopters are developing airborn anti drone jamming system.
https://youtu.be/GPxJLqf3edI?si=lXAlhgrIvhofT0UF
Mjb
There should be no permitting of any drones from an outside source when the police are operating. I'd very much doubt this YouTuber has permission. You just have to look at the improvisation in the usage of drones in Ukraine to know that if they're willing to launch bricks and all sorts at police on the ground, they wouldn't bat an eyelid at flying a drone into the side of one of their choppers.
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,371
Likes: 926
From: Den Haag
According to reports and a video, at least one Russian military helicopter was targeted and taken down by a drone, video indicating the tail rotor was the target.
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 444
Likes: 83
From: Alles Über
https://news.liga.net/en/politics/vi...pv-drone-video
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 145
Likes: 19
From: Wensleydale.
Don’t know about that one but I was at Topcliffe with the AAC from 84 to 86 and did at least one trip to see if it was feasible to be used as a platform for the police, we had been asked to help out with cover overhead the A1 and A64 when Sgt John Speed had been shot in Leeds in 84 but bureaucracy wouldn’t allow us to help on that occasion. After that it was sanctioned to see if something could be done, but the challenge at the time was we couldn’t run the police radio through the aircraft and it was a nightmare. We had a police cameraman in the back when one of our Gazelles ploughed in at Catterick so I don’t think much came of it after that.
