NPAS News 2024
Joined: Dec 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 880
Likes: 38
From: Once a Squirrel Heaven (or hell!), Shropshire UK
On the SAR Flight at Coltishall it was not uncommon to have a police observer (with a police radio) in the back of the Wessex when we did some of the overland searches for missing people. I think there was talk of a mod to put a dedicated fitting in for the radio or aerial but don't know the outcome of that. There was certainly no training of observers at the time, although two or three of them were ex-aircrew.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
I’m afraid you think wrong - I can assure you that they did. I was one of the QFI instructors involved and somewhere I still have my RAF logbook entries and the course photos. It was carried out under the “Aid to the Civil Power” training scheme. I also flew an RAF aircraft with a police observer who carried a police radio and was in air/ground contact with local traffic police, part of an experiment controlling a rolling road block for a major event.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 33
Likes: 1
From: UK
Training
I’m afraid you think wrong - I can assure you that they did. I was one of the QFI instructors involved and somewhere I still have my RAF logbook entries and the course photos. It was carried out under the “Aid to the Civil Power” training scheme. I also flew an RAF aircraft with a police observer who carried a police radio and was in air/ground contact with local traffic police, part of an experiment controlling a rolling road block for a major event.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Joined: Nov 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,752
Likes: 64
From: Alles über die platz
Doncaster
Is another fixed wing move (back) likely?
Doncaster Sheffield Airport is one step closer to reopening, with local council support and promising attention from investors.
(13 Aug ‘24)
https://www.regionalgateway.net/donc...rds-reopening/
Probably a bit out of range for a P68 but….
(3 Aug ‘24)
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/...n-29693202.amp
Doncaster Sheffield Airport is one step closer to reopening, with local council support and promising attention from investors.
(13 Aug ‘24)
https://www.regionalgateway.net/donc...rds-reopening/
Probably a bit out of range for a P68 but….
(3 Aug ‘24)
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/...n-29693202.amp
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
I don't dispute the Cold War training the RAF did with the police before Police Air Ops units were common, but I took from your original post that RAF trained Police Observers for Police Units. I know it was looked at mid 90s-ish when, the Home Office Advisor at the time, arranged for a couple of Merseyside Police Observers to complete the ground elements of the QHI course with a view to Shawbury using excess aircraft/staff to train Police Observers but it didn't progress beyond that point. So yes, the RAF did train Bobbies to assist in mapping post strike info until the wall came down but I still think that they didn't train them for Police Air Ops units per se.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
War Duties Police Observers
Further to the statement that the military "didn't train them for Police Air Ops units per se."
Correct. The War Duties Police Observers were a Cold War project. Both the army and the RAF were involved and although there was a degree of crossover this was a military project with nothing much to do with police observer training. Training was mostly in Chipmunks and Bulldogs (RAF) and Austers, Beavers Alouette II Scout and Skeeters (Army)
The War Duties flying survived into the early 1990s and and the crossover meant that many early police observers effectively served on both. There were numerous police trials from the 1960s and they utilized the War Duties Observers as pre-trained personnel (for obvious reasons) and it was some amongst them that went on to create what became police ASUs from 1980 (The Met).
Correct. The War Duties Police Observers were a Cold War project. Both the army and the RAF were involved and although there was a degree of crossover this was a military project with nothing much to do with police observer training. Training was mostly in Chipmunks and Bulldogs (RAF) and Austers, Beavers Alouette II Scout and Skeeters (Army)
The War Duties flying survived into the early 1990s and and the crossover meant that many early police observers effectively served on both. There were numerous police trials from the 1960s and they utilized the War Duties Observers as pre-trained personnel (for obvious reasons) and it was some amongst them that went on to create what became police ASUs from 1980 (The Met).
Joined: Jul 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 3,052
Likes: 56
From: UK
“New trials set to help unlock drone deliveries and inspections in the UK”
https://www.caa.co.uk/newsroom/news/...ons-in-the-uk/
“NPAS
https://www.caa.co.uk/newsroom/news/...ons-in-the-uk/
“NPAS
- In 2021, the National Police Air Service established its Futures & Innovation Team. The team's objectives were to investigate Beyond Visual Line of Sight capabilities and its potential adoption as part of a blended fleet.
NPAS’s ambition is to fly an uncrewed aircraft, beyond visual line of sight, over a six month period, in an environment that is representative of where NPAS crewed aircraft would be tasked. It will look to test, and verify, not only the payload capabilities, which are identical to the performance of our crewed aircraft, but also validate the onboard DAA capabilities. This will allow NPAS to understand better what future air support capabilities it could adopt.”
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Further to the statement that the military "didn't train them for Police Air Ops units per se."
Correct. The War Duties Police Observers were a Cold War project. Both the army and the RAF were involved and although there was a degree of crossover this was a military project with nothing much to do with police observer training. Training was mostly in Chipmunks and Bulldogs (RAF) and Austers, Beavers Alouette II Scout and Skeeters (Army)
The War Duties flying survived into the early 1990s and and the crossover meant that many early police observers effectively served on both. There were numerous police trials from the 1960s and they utilized the War Duties Observers as pre-trained personnel (for obvious reasons) and it was some amongst them that went on to create what became police ASUs from 1980 (The Met).
Correct. The War Duties Police Observers were a Cold War project. Both the army and the RAF were involved and although there was a degree of crossover this was a military project with nothing much to do with police observer training. Training was mostly in Chipmunks and Bulldogs (RAF) and Austers, Beavers Alouette II Scout and Skeeters (Army)
The War Duties flying survived into the early 1990s and and the crossover meant that many early police observers effectively served on both. There were numerous police trials from the 1960s and they utilized the War Duties Observers as pre-trained personnel (for obvious reasons) and it was some amongst them that went on to create what became police ASUs from 1980 (The Met).
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Joined: Nov 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,752
Likes: 64
From: Alles über die platz
https://www.caa.co.uk/newsroom/news/...ons-in-the-uk/
NPAS’s ambition is to fly an uncrewed aircraft, beyond visual line of sight, over a six month period, in an environment that is representative of where NPAS crewed aircraft would be tasked. It will look to test, and verify, not only the payload capabilities, which are identical to the performance of our crewed aircraft, but also validate the onboard DAA capabilities. This will allow NPAS to understand better what future air support capabilities it could adopt.”
NPAS’s ambition is to fly an uncrewed aircraft, beyond visual line of sight, over a six month period, in an environment that is representative of where NPAS crewed aircraft would be tasked. It will look to test, and verify, not only the payload capabilities, which are identical to the performance of our crewed aircraft, but also validate the onboard DAA capabilities. This will allow NPAS to understand better what future air support capabilities it could adopt.”
* The Mojave drone will probably cost a little over $32 million each (the cost of a MQ-9A Reaper) and $5,000 an hour to fly, for a total of $52 million over 4,000 hours.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/a45574095/worlds-first-aircraft-carrier-drone-force/#
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 15th August 2024 at 23:45.
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
And the other minor problem with this '6 month' trial being undertaken under the oversight of NPAS is that history tells us that the world is not exactly ready for BVLOS operations in an urban environment - let alone the cost.
NPAS struggles on with a handful of aircraft to cover 43 police forces and the project suggests that each city [or town] of note may be served by 2-3 Drones as First Responders to save the time of the police and emergency services. And do not forget that PSNI and Scotland may want the same equipment....
I am not so sure that the economics is going to hold out here....
The nice and flexible manned aircraft serving 43 seem to under threat from DFR set up in centres of population. Well a quick Google tells me that there are 76 cities in the UK, there are also plenty of large towns, Multiply that by three each and the infrastructure starts to get as complex as setting up the ESN (and we know how well that has been going!), so lets not place too much faith in DFR as a helicopter replacement concept! Might just be another £2BN black hole in the public finances.
The last NPAS project to bolster air support was fixed wing (replacing the MD902 Explorers) and that has not exactly set the world on fire has it. They just cannot do the hours - although much of that may be staff related. I wonder whether there are enough engineers out there to support in excess of 500 little flying machines dotted around on poles and rooftops? I wonder how well equipped the NPAS Wakefield control room is to filter out an added fleet of 500!
NPAS struggles on with a handful of aircraft to cover 43 police forces and the project suggests that each city [or town] of note may be served by 2-3 Drones as First Responders to save the time of the police and emergency services. And do not forget that PSNI and Scotland may want the same equipment....
I am not so sure that the economics is going to hold out here....
The nice and flexible manned aircraft serving 43 seem to under threat from DFR set up in centres of population. Well a quick Google tells me that there are 76 cities in the UK, there are also plenty of large towns, Multiply that by three each and the infrastructure starts to get as complex as setting up the ESN (and we know how well that has been going!), so lets not place too much faith in DFR as a helicopter replacement concept! Might just be another £2BN black hole in the public finances.
The last NPAS project to bolster air support was fixed wing (replacing the MD902 Explorers) and that has not exactly set the world on fire has it. They just cannot do the hours - although much of that may be staff related. I wonder whether there are enough engineers out there to support in excess of 500 little flying machines dotted around on poles and rooftops? I wonder how well equipped the NPAS Wakefield control room is to filter out an added fleet of 500!
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
BVLOS using real pilots!
Last week NPAS posted another drone related press release on its site. https://www.npas.police.uk/news/npas-trial-uncrewed-aircraft It is their version of an earlier one issued by the CAA on overall drone trials utilizing a Sandbox scheme.
There are some odd statements ..... but it is clear that it is a different beast to the Norwich trials of First Responder drones.
According to the NPAS statement they are after drones staying airborne for more than six hours and fitted with mission equipment comparable to those on the existing NPAS fleet.
The UAS will be flown by qualified NPAS pilots, supported by highly experienced tactical flight officers - the recent Strategic Board minutes have stated that they are short of both for day to day work so it may be they are bringing in drone pilots... but that is not what it says..Indeed it goes on to state “Nothing replaces the value that the skills and experience of NPAS pilots and tactical flight officers bring to policing,”
The trials, which are expected to begin in Spring 2025, will be run from an existing NPAS base in the South West region, (name me a few) selected for its unique position to operate over water for aircraft shakedown testing...... I guess that is not Exeter Airport but something down in Cornwall that D&C set up some years back..
NPAS is currently working with BlueLight Commercial to procure a supplier for the UAS which is to be trialled.
There are some odd statements ..... but it is clear that it is a different beast to the Norwich trials of First Responder drones.
According to the NPAS statement they are after drones staying airborne for more than six hours and fitted with mission equipment comparable to those on the existing NPAS fleet.
The UAS will be flown by qualified NPAS pilots, supported by highly experienced tactical flight officers - the recent Strategic Board minutes have stated that they are short of both for day to day work so it may be they are bringing in drone pilots... but that is not what it says..Indeed it goes on to state “Nothing replaces the value that the skills and experience of NPAS pilots and tactical flight officers bring to policing,”
The trials, which are expected to begin in Spring 2025, will be run from an existing NPAS base in the South West region, (name me a few) selected for its unique position to operate over water for aircraft shakedown testing...... I guess that is not Exeter Airport but something down in Cornwall that D&C set up some years back..
NPAS is currently working with BlueLight Commercial to procure a supplier for the UAS which is to be trialled.
Last edited by PANews; 19th August 2024 at 09:19. Reason: typo
Joined: Sep 2023
Posts: 41
Likes: 6
From: United Kingdom
I wonder where they're at with the fleet replacement plan. The annual report appeared to show a nice amount of cash in the pot. I still think the 5 EC135s the RAF chose not to take up would've been a great addition to the fleet, considering the serviceability issues seen with these old, knackered airframes. IIRC those 'spare' RAF frames ended up in Australia in the end.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 28
Likes: 7
From: Yorkshire and The Humber
I would honestly like to know too AeroAmigo , From my knowledge I know that not many faces came to putting a bid towards the tender. As far as I am aware, only Heli-Ops nominated the Bell 429 as the of airframe they would provide NPAS with, but heard nothing, nor any trials with this type of aircraft or even if there were any outcomes. I also think Airbus Helicopters also put a bid towards the tender, but no big information was disclosed regarding the types, which lets be honest would only be of the H135 T/P3s or H145 D3s. Would be interesting to see if any of the other regulars have put in bids towards the fleet replacement tender like; like Babcock, Gama, Sloane, Heliservices, Bristow, CHC or Castle Air. It is becoming quite tedious now, as NPAS first started looking for a fleet replacement back in 2017 to my knowledge.
We may have to start rattling the cage on What Do They Know FOI page. To see if we can get HQ to budge with some answers!
Yeah, I completely agree! NPAS should've snapped those H135s up. They would all probably be role-equipped and in service now to help optimise the fleet, which is in dire need of some newer airframes!
In other news, the fleet update is looking bleak. Only 8 aircraft operational as of 00:30, 25/11/2024.
We may have to start rattling the cage on What Do They Know FOI page. To see if we can get HQ to budge with some answers!
Yeah, I completely agree! NPAS should've snapped those H135s up. They would all probably be role-equipped and in service now to help optimise the fleet, which is in dire need of some newer airframes!
In other news, the fleet update is looking bleak. Only 8 aircraft operational as of 00:30, 25/11/2024.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 28
Likes: 7
From: Yorkshire and The Humber
MightyGem - Just some simple maths in accordance with the update I posted on the 21/11/2024.
If there are 24 aircraft in the NPAS Fleet, to work one aircraft out as a percentage would be 100 ÷ 24 = 4.16666666667
So, if there were 9 of NPAS Aircraft Offline, 4.16666666667 x 9 = 37.5%
That's how I calculated my figures.
If there are 24 aircraft in the NPAS Fleet, to work one aircraft out as a percentage would be 100 ÷ 24 = 4.16666666667
So, if there were 9 of NPAS Aircraft Offline, 4.16666666667 x 9 = 37.5%
That's how I calculated my figures.
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 142
From: Warrington, UK
MightyGem - Just some simple maths in accordance with the update I posted on the 21/11/2024.
If there are 24 aircraft in the NPAS Fleet, to work one aircraft out as a percentage would be 100 ÷ 24 = 4.16666666667
So, if there were 9 of NPAS Aircraft Offline, 4.16666666667 x 9 = 37.5%
That's how I calculated my figures.
If there are 24 aircraft in the NPAS Fleet, to work one aircraft out as a percentage would be 100 ÷ 24 = 4.16666666667
So, if there were 9 of NPAS Aircraft Offline, 4.16666666667 x 9 = 37.5%
That's how I calculated my figures.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 28
Likes: 7
From: Yorkshire and The Humber
MightyGem - I use Historical Aircraft Data from various platforms, such as ADSB Exhange, 360Radar, AirAssist. I also check various photo gallery and social media e.g. Flickr, X and so on. I just also use common sense too. No fancy human sources for me... 
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 3,931
Likes: 142
From: Warrington, UK
NPAS Annual Report for 2023/24 is available here: https://www.npas.police.uk/news/publ...-report-202324
Links to read online or download are in the line above the picture.
Links to read online or download are in the line above the picture.
Joined: Nov 2024
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Chigwell
The Police Aviation Scene it the UK has been dead recently... not even a dickie bird regarding the next leaders of NPAS!
Which I may add is due for deciding soon, (like June 2024 soon!)
If a new Lead Force cannot be established and West Yorks backs out from June onwards, who is responsible? Would NPAS be able to become a specialist separate force: e.g. like Civil Nuclear Constabulary?
I have also noticed that their maintenance contract with Airbus Helicopters is also due to expire towards the end of this year, with no set fleet replacement plan in place ready for when the ultimate deadline with AH ends, (whenever that will be!!)
There have been no meeting minutes from the last half of last year uploaded to the NPAS website.
Not to mention that there is currently a very capable POLU ready for active service again, just sitting and looking pretty. Meanwhile, two bases are offline because EMID and TVHB are being utilised elsewhere. I thought the whole purpose of getting POLU back online was to support the very tired fleet of aircraft!
I won't even get started with the machines that have wings also collecting dust at EMA!
What is going off?!
Which I may add is due for deciding soon, (like June 2024 soon!)
If a new Lead Force cannot be established and West Yorks backs out from June onwards, who is responsible? Would NPAS be able to become a specialist separate force: e.g. like Civil Nuclear Constabulary?
I have also noticed that their maintenance contract with Airbus Helicopters is also due to expire towards the end of this year, with no set fleet replacement plan in place ready for when the ultimate deadline with AH ends, (whenever that will be!!)
There have been no meeting minutes from the last half of last year uploaded to the NPAS website.
Not to mention that there is currently a very capable POLU ready for active service again, just sitting and looking pretty. Meanwhile, two bases are offline because EMID and TVHB are being utilised elsewhere. I thought the whole purpose of getting POLU back online was to support the very tired fleet of aircraft!
I won't even get started with the machines that have wings also collecting dust at EMA!
What is going off?!
I am very lucky, I experience daily interactions with many of npas's assets, especially the 145's they seem to hone in on the lights in the garden, I fear if we turn them off they'll get lost. It's almost as if the pilots do as they please in-between attendance of a call. Why do they all land in a field now ? It's as if they not only denied flight data in and out of stapleford they went as far as to redact it from historical flight going way back, conveniently missing all those hours spent over us, speak of the devil I can hear an ec145 incoming. I'd love to know what it is they want with me but at the same time it's actually very alarming to think of the possibilities. So please don't take it personally when you fly at me 70 meters white flashes over and over again. I'm taking pictures of you because I can only assume either someone is leading you up and round the circuit path big time or you seriously abusing your position and public funds. Someone must be authorising it. I'm talking on average 3 to 4 low passes directly over me dailey sometimes more and its very very well documented in video photograph and actual flight data including the past now removed data. Im sick of it, the pilots cannot fly a straight line, literally change course to and from so as to come over us and it's ******* irritating. There must be some other way to navigate. If you got something on your mind 56 st marys way as you well know is where I am. Feel free to get it of your chest before I got completely insane. Thanks in advance