This happened yesterday in Guatemala
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Didnīt get to that spot in my career yet, but I am curious:
If you get an airshow/aerobatic waiver, I donīt believe that you are allowed to "perform" with passengers (non-essential personal, - a wingwalker-show will need the walker, but a helo stunt show doesnīt need a bunch of skydivers.....) on board, are you?
Although it may not be fair, I believe in most parts of the world you will be guilty if you run someone over on the street, even if he runs in front of you in the last split sec.
Most traffic codes will tell you, that you have to drive in a manner to be able to stop in any case - like a child running out in front of you.
Even if the photographer was told not to go out in that spot, the pilot should have been flying higher (or better said, should have never started to "stunt" that low with pax on board or over uncontrolled terrain). If he holds a waiver and low extrem maneuvers is the order of the show, then it should be conducted over a surface that is fully visible with no chance for someone crouching and jumping in front of the machine.
On the other hand imagine a Formula 1 car race, and some idiot makes it onto the track gets hit and the car spinns of, maybe hits a track guard and/or the driver gets hurt in the process.
Who is to blame?
No one complains about these guys driving in relative close proximity to people at insane speeds and definitly not able to always stop in sight distance - as required in most traffic codes!
On the other hand again, they race on a mostly sealed off area and most important without passengers! (Imagine a full schoolbus with a souped up engine!!!)
They also hold a waiver (race driver licence...)
No question the ****man can fly and must have some incredible control of the machine - still this was avoidable on the part of the pilot!
Who was looking for the thrill - just the passengers or the driver too!!
3top
If you get an airshow/aerobatic waiver, I donīt believe that you are allowed to "perform" with passengers (non-essential personal, - a wingwalker-show will need the walker, but a helo stunt show doesnīt need a bunch of skydivers.....) on board, are you?
Although it may not be fair, I believe in most parts of the world you will be guilty if you run someone over on the street, even if he runs in front of you in the last split sec.
Most traffic codes will tell you, that you have to drive in a manner to be able to stop in any case - like a child running out in front of you.
Even if the photographer was told not to go out in that spot, the pilot should have been flying higher (or better said, should have never started to "stunt" that low with pax on board or over uncontrolled terrain). If he holds a waiver and low extrem maneuvers is the order of the show, then it should be conducted over a surface that is fully visible with no chance for someone crouching and jumping in front of the machine.
On the other hand imagine a Formula 1 car race, and some idiot makes it onto the track gets hit and the car spinns of, maybe hits a track guard and/or the driver gets hurt in the process.
Who is to blame?
No one complains about these guys driving in relative close proximity to people at insane speeds and definitly not able to always stop in sight distance - as required in most traffic codes!
On the other hand again, they race on a mostly sealed off area and most important without passengers! (Imagine a full schoolbus with a souped up engine!!!)
They also hold a waiver (race driver licence...)
No question the ****man can fly and must have some incredible control of the machine - still this was avoidable on the part of the pilot!
Who was looking for the thrill - just the passengers or the driver too!!
3top
English is becoming a second language around here.
The OPINIONS in my last post are not my own. The post states at the top: "Fuel for the fire taken from the skydivers forum" they are numbered as such. If you take the time to research this thread you will find them all there.
You can all say sorry now....
I have attended a couple of train wrecks and there comes a time to turn ones head. My time is now......Salut.
Steve76
The OPINIONS in my last post are not my own. The post states at the top: "Fuel for the fire taken from the skydivers forum" they are numbered as such. If you take the time to research this thread you will find them all there.
You can all say sorry now....
I have attended a couple of train wrecks and there comes a time to turn ones head. My time is now......Salut.
Steve76
I have heard of folks walking into tail rotors, main rotors, of aircraft sitting on moving decks cleaving folks in pieces when the rotors dipped while the SAS was left on, people walking into the upslope rotor from both directions, have even heard of people getting whacked when the aircraft made a sudden turn whilst setting on the deck.....but folks....this is the very first time I have ever heard of chopper living up to its name in forward flight. 35 years in this business and two tours in Vietnam where the rulebook did not exist.....and this is a first to me.
You guys can fight with one another about whether he was a good pilot, bad pilot, whether the guy that got killed should have been there and so forth until the cows come home.
The inescapable fact is a human being got mown down by that Bell 412's main rotor blade while the aircraft was in forward controlled flight.
Speaking for myself....and one who in the past has been guilty of enjoying low flight as much as anyone...for this to have happened...is inexcusable to me.
There is a joke that comes to mind.....What is the most famous last words of a Redneck? "HEY YA'LL ! WATCH THIS !"
This is not a joke....a man died...it was avoidable...there is no excuse...there is only one man responsible....the pilot in command. Whether it is criminal, holds civil liability, or enforcement action is taken by the FAA......the pilot in command will have to live with that for the rest of his life. He killed an innocent person by his style of airmanship.
As I said in my first post to this thread....when all the dust settles...we will see what the courts and the FAA finally decides....and I dare say in this day and time....that nameless pilot will wish he had done anything else but what he did. It is one thing to show your butt....it is another to do it in public.
You guys can fight with one another about whether he was a good pilot, bad pilot, whether the guy that got killed should have been there and so forth until the cows come home.
The inescapable fact is a human being got mown down by that Bell 412's main rotor blade while the aircraft was in forward controlled flight.
Speaking for myself....and one who in the past has been guilty of enjoying low flight as much as anyone...for this to have happened...is inexcusable to me.
There is a joke that comes to mind.....What is the most famous last words of a Redneck? "HEY YA'LL ! WATCH THIS !"
This is not a joke....a man died...it was avoidable...there is no excuse...there is only one man responsible....the pilot in command. Whether it is criminal, holds civil liability, or enforcement action is taken by the FAA......the pilot in command will have to live with that for the rest of his life. He killed an innocent person by his style of airmanship.
As I said in my first post to this thread....when all the dust settles...we will see what the courts and the FAA finally decides....and I dare say in this day and time....that nameless pilot will wish he had done anything else but what he did. It is one thing to show your butt....it is another to do it in public.
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SASless,
About 10 to 15 yrs. ago I remember an incident that was mentioned a lot on TV during which a helicopter decapitaded 2 or 3 people (I think they were kids) during the filming of "the twilight zone" I remember the helicopter was flying down the river and hit the people during a turn as they were standing on the river bank, I don't know much else but I remember it was on TV for a while.
So for me its not the first time I hear of something like this.
So for me its not the first time I hear of something like this.
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Blender pilot keeps coming up with these weird accidents!
...Almost twenty years ago. 1983 to be exact. The infamous case with "Twilight Zone - The Movie." During filming, actor Vic Morrow and two child actors were killed when a UH-1 that was hoving above fell on them in a simulated battle scene. The helicopter was brought down when a special-effects technician set off an explosion which took out the tail rotor.
Read about it at: http://www.safe-skies.com/legal_aspects.htm
The article brings up some very good points about pilots and criminal charges following accidents involving fatalities. Actually, these points are rather relevant to this thread.
Please take notice of the term "reckless, willful or wanton" with respect to misconduct. Proving a pilot's actions are such (and thereore criminal) is difficult, which is why a certain Bell 412 pilot has not yet been charged in connection with the death of a person on the ground. However, that may change next month when the Illinois version of a grand jury convenes and reviews all cases of "unnatural death."
About 10 to 15 yrs. ago I remember an incident that was mentioned a lot on TV during which a helicopter decapitaded 2 or 3 people (I think they were kids) during the filming of "the twilight zone" I remember the helicopter was flying down the river and hit the people during a turn as they were standing on the river bank, I don't know much else but I remember it was on TV for a while.
Read about it at: http://www.safe-skies.com/legal_aspects.htm
The article brings up some very good points about pilots and criminal charges following accidents involving fatalities. Actually, these points are rather relevant to this thread.
Please take notice of the term "reckless, willful or wanton" with respect to misconduct. Proving a pilot's actions are such (and thereore criminal) is difficult, which is why a certain Bell 412 pilot has not yet been charged in connection with the death of a person on the ground. However, that may change next month when the Illinois version of a grand jury convenes and reviews all cases of "unnatural death."
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On the other hand imagine a Formula 1 car race, and some idiot makes it onto the track gets hit and the car spinns of, maybe hits a track guard and/or the driver gets hurt in the process.
Who is to blame?
No one complains about these guys driving in relative close proximity to people at insane speeds and definitly not able to always stop in sight distance - as required in most traffic codes!
Who is to blame?
No one complains about these guys driving in relative close proximity to people at insane speeds and definitly not able to always stop in sight distance - as required in most traffic codes!
I was trying to think up a logical metaphor last night to try and liken what *** did to somthing that everyone can relate to, but guess what... I couldn't think of one! There is not a single other circumstance out there that I know of which entails putting passngers at risk while doing somthing completley illigal and reckless, where a bystander can recieve fatal injuries by trying to take a photograph. I challenge everyone else to try and think of one.
Innocent until proven guilty only stands in my mind until there is a reasonable amount of incriminating evidence to prove otherwise. I don't wait for a judge and jury to make my mind up for me.
On a side note, I saw a movie last night called "Fandango", with Kevin Costner and Judd Nelson (1985), which had a part where the group of guys went skydiving. The pilot (a marajuana smoking "hippie") used his plane (Cessna 182 with an outrageous paint scheme) to ferry Judd to altitude. After he dropped his passenger, the pilot did an emmelman, 90 deg vertical dive, and low (<2 feet clearance) pass during and after Judd's decent. Afterwards, the group tasked the pilot to pick up a girl in the city, which had even more amazing flying - the pilot did rolls and loops, and even flew under overpasses (mere inches in clearance top and bottom), even while being chased by police in a FH1100, culminating with him landing and taxing on a congested freeway, off an offramp, down the street, and finally to the persons house.
When I saw that, I immidiatley thought "*** ******".
Mike
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SASless sums it up............
No matter what courts ,FAA, whatever decide. It was avoidable, the style of flying employed not necessary to give the pax a thrill.
Someone died, the lone responsibility lies with the pilot. Because of his action someone died. I trust he did not intend to kill the guy, it "just" happened. He will have to live the rest of his life with that. Plus lots of professional pilots will have their own mind and opinion about him.........
THman:
I take it you do not frequent Central America a lot.
Take a trip to Panama in your next vacation, you will see plenty metaphors for the accident, though they are still not logical, rather ignorant and stupid to the max.
Actually you will see them to the DOZEN EVERY day!!
Here they call them "Red Devels" - Ex-US-Schoolbuses, painted very colorful, mainly red (see the name?). These are the regular transportation in Panama. Lots of them are just dumb idiots, racing each other on every chance, with a lot of times faulty equipment. I am here now since about 10 years. I saw at least 15 cases of "missing rear axle". The whole thing just brakes loose, if you are lucky the bus stays upright and comes to a rest some 50 yards ahead!
Police knows it, but just ignores it - [Panamanian]police!! something else over what to let of steam - maybe in a different forum....
3top
PS: Of course NOT ALL buses are chunk and drivers are idiots!!
Taxi drivers take another big chunk of the idiot population down here!!
No matter what courts ,FAA, whatever decide. It was avoidable, the style of flying employed not necessary to give the pax a thrill.
Someone died, the lone responsibility lies with the pilot. Because of his action someone died. I trust he did not intend to kill the guy, it "just" happened. He will have to live the rest of his life with that. Plus lots of professional pilots will have their own mind and opinion about him.........
THman:
I take it you do not frequent Central America a lot.
Take a trip to Panama in your next vacation, you will see plenty metaphors for the accident, though they are still not logical, rather ignorant and stupid to the max.
Actually you will see them to the DOZEN EVERY day!!
Here they call them "Red Devels" - Ex-US-Schoolbuses, painted very colorful, mainly red (see the name?). These are the regular transportation in Panama. Lots of them are just dumb idiots, racing each other on every chance, with a lot of times faulty equipment. I am here now since about 10 years. I saw at least 15 cases of "missing rear axle". The whole thing just brakes loose, if you are lucky the bus stays upright and comes to a rest some 50 yards ahead!
Police knows it, but just ignores it - [Panamanian]police!! something else over what to let of steam - maybe in a different forum....
3topPS: Of course NOT ALL buses are chunk and drivers are idiots!!
Taxi drivers take another big chunk of the idiot population down here!!
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Red Wine,
I've been lazy with uploading the pics. Actually, been busy.. I promise to do it tonite.
*Yay, now I've got 90 minutes of forum-code filled replies ahead of me tonite! Better start the coffee pot now!*
Give me time por favor.
Mike
I've been lazy with uploading the pics. Actually, been busy.. I promise to do it tonite.
*Yay, now I've got 90 minutes of forum-code filled replies ahead of me tonite! Better start the coffee pot now!*
Give me time por favor.
Mike
3TOP.....ever get up the courage to ride the legendary "Rabbit" buses in the Philippines? The Kamikaze pilots during WWII would have had heart attacks if they rode the Rabbit! A night trip down the mountains was an experience that provoked me to buy a car there....and to kill off a few million brain cells with some medicinal whiskey.....it terrified me me and I am a hero! Joey Chitwood's Hell Drivers never put on such a show as the Rabbits do. Joey made was famous for driving on just two sets of tires....heck he did it on level ground with a car....the Rabbit drivers do it with a bus in the dark going down the mountain while looking over their shoulder and carrying on a conversation with the passengers....at warp speed nine!
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SAS:
Thanks, I pass on this one and let someone else be the hero, like all the poor folks that canīt afford a car to leave the rabbits in FRONT (something I learned in Panama, these guys are better to have in front than behind you, considering their driving habits and possible - aah, most like brake conditions...) of them!!
But sometime I will have to roam that corner of the world!
I see, Panama doesnīt hold the monopoly on crazy public transportation providers!!
3top
Thanks, I pass on this one and let someone else be the hero, like all the poor folks that canīt afford a car to leave the rabbits in FRONT (something I learned in Panama, these guys are better to have in front than behind you, considering their driving habits and possible - aah, most like brake conditions...) of them!!
But sometime I will have to roam that corner of the world!
I see, Panama doesnīt hold the monopoly on crazy public transportation providers!!
3top
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3top
I envy you, Panamanian Girls are hot!
Panama is cool, during 1999 I routinely went to Panama and stayed for days at Cesars Park or Intercontinental, I remember going to all those restaurants in the business district and really enjoyed meeting all those "scantly clad" Panamainian Seņoritas! The Tocumen Duty Free is also the cheapest place on earth! Have you ever used that heliport on the Intercontinental Pier? Unfortunately at the time I was flying a Beechjet (I also fly "stiff wing") into Tocumen and have only flown once thru Panama in a helicopter, but it would be great to do it again, actually I might get to since my boss just sold a 206 L4 to a company in La Paz, Bolivia and they are trying to decide if they "ship it" or "fly it" I was talking to some FAP pilots that tell me the hard part is going across the Andes, have you ever gone down there? Also La Paz is at 13,120 FT AMSL and I'm not sure how this L4 with standard TR is gonna do over there.
Panama is cool
Panama is cool, during 1999 I routinely went to Panama and stayed for days at Cesars Park or Intercontinental, I remember going to all those restaurants in the business district and really enjoyed meeting all those "scantly clad" Panamainian Seņoritas! The Tocumen Duty Free is also the cheapest place on earth! Have you ever used that heliport on the Intercontinental Pier? Unfortunately at the time I was flying a Beechjet (I also fly "stiff wing") into Tocumen and have only flown once thru Panama in a helicopter, but it would be great to do it again, actually I might get to since my boss just sold a 206 L4 to a company in La Paz, Bolivia and they are trying to decide if they "ship it" or "fly it" I was talking to some FAP pilots that tell me the hard part is going across the Andes, have you ever gone down there? Also La Paz is at 13,120 FT AMSL and I'm not sure how this L4 with standard TR is gonna do over there.
Panama is cool
Last edited by BlenderPilot; 15th Sep 2002 at 05:34.
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Hi Blender:
Actually Panama is not cool, rather hot - !!
You must mean the heliport on the marina-pier of the Miramar-Intercontinental. I operate there a lot. Luckily the owners of the hotel donīt charge landing fees (yet...), so it is the defacto city heliport for everybody! They also own the Holiday Inn which has a heliport, right beside the Panama Hotel, which has one too, but that one is tricky, as it seems there are always turbulence and fast changing ones, so you never get to settle in. Mostly it ends with a less than perfect touch down. The Holiday Inn is a piece of cake compared. The owners of the Miramar maintain their own R-44 in our hangar. The head of the clan is just preparing for his private checkride! So is his daughter, his son is flying the R since about a year and a half!
With a L4 you shouldnīt have any trouble to go over the Andes as long as you are not to heavy. I havenīt been there myself though. All our new ships were flown down from California - around 30-35 hrs to Panama. A light L4 (2 people and full fuel + some jerrycans in case...land on any beach fill up hot and go and donīt tell anyone!!.) should get you easy the distance. If you have any say in that matter, go for the trip it is worth it! Make a stop in Panama overnight and check everything for the trip through Columbia, so you can do that in one daylight move. I guess you would go to Guayaquil Ecuador - Peru - Bolivia.
However I donīt know what they want to do with a L4 down there. As it getīs really at the edge with usefull performance.
TR on any JetRanger or son of JR - sucks!! They should talk toUncle Frank (Mr.Robinson) - he could make them a REAL TR!!! But then, when he gets his hand on a Bell, there will not a whole lot be left untouched!!
If you stay over in Panama, go to the old Albrook-airport ("Marcos A. Gelabert"-airport, today) it is also international and you safe big bucks going into the city!
Give me an e-mail when you are on the trip, I give you a lift to the Miramar!
3top,
Actually Panama is not cool, rather hot -
!!You must mean the heliport on the marina-pier of the Miramar-Intercontinental. I operate there a lot. Luckily the owners of the hotel donīt charge landing fees (yet...), so it is the defacto city heliport for everybody! They also own the Holiday Inn which has a heliport, right beside the Panama Hotel, which has one too, but that one is tricky, as it seems there are always turbulence and fast changing ones, so you never get to settle in. Mostly it ends with a less than perfect touch down. The Holiday Inn is a piece of cake compared. The owners of the Miramar maintain their own R-44 in our hangar. The head of the clan is just preparing for his private checkride! So is his daughter, his son is flying the R since about a year and a half!
With a L4 you shouldnīt have any trouble to go over the Andes as long as you are not to heavy. I havenīt been there myself though. All our new ships were flown down from California - around 30-35 hrs to Panama. A light L4 (2 people and full fuel + some jerrycans in case...land on any beach fill up hot and go and donīt tell anyone!!.) should get you easy the distance. If you have any say in that matter, go for the trip it is worth it! Make a stop in Panama overnight and check everything for the trip through Columbia, so you can do that in one daylight move. I guess you would go to Guayaquil Ecuador - Peru - Bolivia.
However I donīt know what they want to do with a L4 down there. As it getīs really at the edge with usefull performance.
TR on any JetRanger or son of JR - sucks!! They should talk toUncle Frank (Mr.Robinson) - he could make them a REAL TR!!! But then, when he gets his hand on a Bell, there will not a whole lot be left untouched!!
If you stay over in Panama, go to the old Albrook-airport ("Marcos A. Gelabert"-airport, today) it is also international and you safe big bucks going into the city!
Give me an e-mail when you are on the trip, I give you a lift to the Miramar!
3top,
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Flare says
This is not true.
Please take notice of the term "reckless, willful or wanton" with respect to misconduct. Proving a pilot's actions are such (and thereore criminal) is difficult
This is not true.
Calling Huey drivers, out there:
For the MRB to make contact with the victim (assuming the victim was standing bolt upright at the time), would mean that the tip path plane would be at around 6 feet.
With it's teetering head, assuming the body of the helo was fully dragged back when it hit the victim, what height would the skids be off the ground??
What is the height of the tip of a blade on a huey when it is stationary (parked up) and the blades are horizontal?
I reckon we're talking inches, maybe a foot off the deck????
For the MRB to make contact with the victim (assuming the victim was standing bolt upright at the time), would mean that the tip path plane would be at around 6 feet.
With it's teetering head, assuming the body of the helo was fully dragged back when it hit the victim, what height would the skids be off the ground??
What is the height of the tip of a blade on a huey when it is stationary (parked up) and the blades are horizontal?
I reckon we're talking inches, maybe a foot off the deck????
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Thomas Coupling asked:
Well, the actual type of ship does not matter. And of course, it depends on the bank angle, no? I mean, you could get the blades down that low with as little as a thirty degree bank, I suppose, and the skids would be very low to the ground. But if you increase the bank angle to, say, 60 degrees or more, then the skids will be that much higher.
In this particular case (Bell 412 at Rantoul, Illinois), the issue is not that the skids were very low to the ground, but that the main rotor obviously was.
For the MRB to make contact with the victim (assuming the victim was standing bolt upright at the time), would mean that the tip path plane would be at around 6 feet.
With it's teetering head, assuming the body of the helo was fully dragged back when it hit the victim, what height would the skids be off the ground??
With it's teetering head, assuming the body of the helo was fully dragged back when it hit the victim, what height would the skids be off the ground??
In this particular case (Bell 412 at Rantoul, Illinois), the issue is not that the skids were very low to the ground, but that the main rotor obviously was.