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R44 crash w/video - Forresters Beach NSW - 19/11/2022

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R44 crash w/video - Forresters Beach NSW - 19/11/2022

Old 21st Nov 2022, 23:27
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As said before, Frank Robinson was a tail rotor expert and it is difficult to get into a situation like the one depicted without some significant mishandling.
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Old 21st Nov 2022, 23:47
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie View Post
Evil, how many times do I have to tell you:


It's LACK OF TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE. But a lack of talent would certainly be a factor. We saw enough of that, didn't we.....

We certainly did, I'm frantically shaving off the greys hairs that prove it!!
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 05:34
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Originally Posted by Robbiee View Post
Hard to imagine that happening at sea level in a 44. Those things have really great tail rotor authority. I've never heard of anyone reaching the pedal stop on a 44, but I guess anything's possible?
Though difficult, the best technique is:

Approach downwind, with a “good” ROD.
Jerk the collective up as the ground rushes up and you lose ETL on Main and Tail rotors. If you are heavy (or high DA), and you really try, you might manage to bleed a few RRPM, which is obviously ideal.
Let a right yaw develop, preferably wind assisted. Kick in a heap of left pedal - enough to stop the yaw instantly, and start a rapid yaw to the left. Jerking a little extra collective at this stage helps.
Really, it’s only likely to work well, if you can keep the RRPM from recovering (Tricky with so much installed power), otherwise the the excellent TR will just “work”.
Practice makes perfect.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 07:21
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Originally Posted by Hughes500 View Post
Think overpitching here. Notice the ac actually yaws to the left as he slows down, that application of pedal will slow the MR down, I guess he pulls more power with collective, which reduces translational lift as the nose goes up a bit and the Tr says I have had enough and gives up !
as beginner pilot I was always surprised how easy it is to overpitch as you try to get the aircraft moving foward.
as the thrust vector points forward a lot of lift is lost from an already overtaxed hovering ship.
one can easily pull too much collective at the sight of the nose starting to sniff the runway upon moving forward.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 10:13
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It is worth remembering that prior to the mandatory installation of fuel cells in R44s, this kind of impact tended to result in a fire.


Mjb
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 15:11
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Originally Posted by mickjoebill View Post
It is worth remembering that prior to the mandatory installation of fuel cells in R44s, this kind of impact tended to result in a fire.


Mjb
Umm,...sure, I guess. If that makes you happy.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 16:19
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Originally Posted by Agile View Post
as beginner pilot I was always surprised how easy it is to overpitch as you try to get the aircraft moving foward.
as the thrust vector points forward a lot of lift is lost from an already overtaxed hovering ship.
one can easily pull too much collective at the sight of the nose starting to sniff the runway upon moving forward.

Is that how it works. ? Must have been getting it wrong all those years ago. Never managed to “sniff” a runway or the oggin for that matter.

Last edited by Chock Puller; 26th Nov 2022 at 01:21. Reason: Profanity is a No No!
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 18:47
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Originally Posted by Robbiee View Post
Umm,...sure, I guess. If that makes you happy.
Well it is a good point Robbie. It was the first thing that I thought about when I looked at the wreck. The pax lived, they'd otherwise be dead: Avgas loves to ignite...
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 02:03
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Originally Posted by Torquetalk View Post
Well it is a good point Robbie. It was the first thing that I thought about when I looked at the wreck. The pax lived, they'd otherwise be dead: Avgas loves to ignite...
They've been putting bladder tanks in Robby's for several years now. May as well just say, "No one died this time thanks to the mandated seat belts".
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 04:33
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Seat belts have been required forever, but the bladders only came after a lot of crispy critters.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 10:12
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Originally Posted by Evil Twin View Post
Now Charlie I'm going to have to argue with you on this one.

LTE - Lack of Talent and Experience!

There see.... ;-)
My version of LTE is “ Lack of training & experience”….same result!!👍
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 10:52
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Originally Posted by Ascend Charlie View Post
Oh, dear...it was a guess, but an uninformed one.

There ain't no such animal as LTE, as explained by multiple test pilots such as Nick Lappos and John Dixson over the years. Search for "Helicopter urban myths" on this site.

Demanding more from the tail rotor than it can produce is a more likely cause. Frank Robinson was a tail rotor expert and it is difficult to get into a situation like the one depicted without some significant mishandling.

Well, sorry but there is a thing called Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness. It is pretty real when the flex coupling fails in the R 44 TR Drive shaft. LTE is the effect, not the cause and that is accepted by everyone. Instead of arguing, how about we constructively try to fill the experience bag before the luck one runs out! More seasoned ones here can figure what happened, because we have all been there or close to it, too. Glad they are largely OK.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 12:36
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Originally Posted by anypilot View Post
Well, sorry but there is a thing called Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness. It is pretty real when the flex coupling fails in the R 44 TR Drive shaft. LTE is the effect, not the cause and that is accepted by everyone. Instead of arguing, how about we constructively try to fill the experience bag before the luck one runs out! More seasoned ones here can figure what happened, because we have all been there or close to it, too. Glad they are largely OK.
That is a mechanical failure - most would call it a tail rotor drive failure.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 13:01
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
That is a mechanical failure - most would call it a tail rotor drive failure.
Here's an opportunity for a new acronym: CLTE - complete loss of tail-rotor effectiveness
Doesn't that just sound so much better.

Though in this case, it sounds more like a complete loss of helicopter effectiveness.
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 14:38
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Originally Posted by anypilot View Post
Well, sorry but there is a thing called Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness. It is pretty real when the flex coupling fails in the R 44 TR Drive shaft. LTE is the effect, not the cause and that is accepted by everyone. Instead of arguing, how about we constructively try to fill the experience bag before the luck one runs out! More seasoned ones here can figure what happened, because we have all been there or close to it, too. Glad they are largely OK.
Pretty sure that's what the POH refers to as "Loss of Tail Rotor Thrust".
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 05:37
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anypilot - Well, sorry but there is a thing called Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness
Nick Lappos Sikorsky test piot - There really is no such thing as Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness, BTW - for a given density altitude, the tail rotor always produces a given maximum amount of thrust and a given maximum effectiveness, it is just that it can be swamped by main rotor torque rises, and by crosswind effects. Generally, only marginal tail rotors experience LTE, and the vast majority of LTE events are experienced by only two types of helicopter. LTE is not a pervasive helicopter problem
anypiot, the history of the term LTE is an invention of Bell to explain to the US Army accidents they were having with the OH -58 and UH-1, they are the two aircraft referred to by Nick Lappos above. The reason for their accident rate was that the tail rotors were not big enough. Terminology is important, LTE is not loss of tail rotor thrust as pointed out by Robbie. With a few thousand hours in both and 20k total only once in a 206 with a sling load into a mountain
we have all been there or close to it, too
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 06:20
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Yeah…

Global warming leads to LTE..
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Old 24th Nov 2022, 09:58
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Government cutbacks, too, they reduced the lift available and donated it to the poor developing countries.
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Old 25th Nov 2022, 09:31
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Failure of the meat servo?

Heavy-slow-flat approach, low time pilot with death grip on the controls?
Left pedal droops the RPM, death grip prevents governor from rolling on throttle.
RPM droops then collective under armpit causes right uncontrolled yaw.

Heavy landing for the 4 passengers onboard.
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Old 25th Nov 2022, 15:28
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Originally Posted by Aluminium Mallard View Post
Failure of the meat servo?

Heavy-slow-flat approach, low time pilot with death grip on the controls?
Left pedal droops the RPM, death grip prevents governor from rolling on throttle.
RPM droops then collective under armpit causes right uncontrolled yaw.

Heavy landing for the 4 passengers onboard.
Wow,...if you're doing that, you need a better instructor, lol.
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