If you're scud-running, don't follow rising terrain.

[Rotorbee]

Uplinker: Yes, it is entirely possible, that he did not have the performance to hover under these circumstances, but we will not know this, until the report comes out, or better sometbody is interested enough to look it up.
I personally am not sure, if he hit something first and then the horn came on, indicating low RPM or he overpitched - asked too much power - and then went into the trees. But that does not matter.
A short explanation.
Hovering Out Of Ground Effect (OGE) requires the most power. He was definitely in this situation above the trees. As we have already established, he was high, hot, heavy and slow.
Hovering In Ground Effect (IGE) needs much less power. There can be a lot of difference between IGE and OGE. The difference can be several thousand feet. The difference in height over the ground between IGE and OGE is roughly one rotor diameter.
Flying straight and level or even climbing a bit, as in this case, does take a lot less power, than hovering. That wasn't the problem here. He had way enough power to do that.
To answer your question and taking in account, that we do not know the altitude he was flying, he could have hovered IGE on that ridge, but not be able to hover OGE. That is quite normal for helicopters. In that case, the pilot has to plan his approach to the desired landing spot in a way, that he looses translation lift (the help you get from air speed at about 16 to 20 knots, or even lower, depending on the ship) at the moment he enters ground effect. That sounds crazy but isn't a big deal, as long as your landing spot is big enough to do that, i.e. provide ground effect. It is frowned upon as professional pilots, but I think many of us even have landed in spots where we didn't even had IGE performance and on take off thrown ourselves over the cliff or platform to get airspeed into translation lift. Bad, bad, bad.
Clear the ridge and descending was probably his plan, but the clouds were in the way. Going into a cloud in a helicopter is deadly. Most helicopters are not IFR certified, especially not the AS 350 single engine versions. They have no autopilots. Helicopters are unstable in flight. If you let go of the controls, they will do whatever they want (also depending on the ship) and crash shortly thereafter. The pilot himself may have been IFR certified, but chances are high, he was not or not current. Therefore he did not want to go into the clouds for any reason. Even though most helicopters have some instruments to stay straight and level, should you inadvertently go IMC, the results are normally not good (90 seconds to live video explains it all). That is, why so many helicopters do the scud running and accidents like that happen.

[henra]

Originally Posted by Rotorbee

Clear the ridge and descending was probably his plan, but the clouds were in the way.

That was my impression as well. The turn initially could indeed very well have been intentional (the horn starts to sound only later quite a bit into the turn) upon realising that on the other side of the ridge the big grey fog of death was waiting. Had he continued straight ahead, ground reference would probably have been lost 1 or 2 seconds later. With surely even way worse consequences. In that regard I consider this guy (and his Pax) lucky.

[212man]

Originally Posted by henra

That was my impression as well. The turn initially could indeed very well have been intentional (the horn starts to sound only later quite a bit into the turn) upon realising that on the other side of the ridge the big grey fog of death was waiting. Had he continued straight ahead, ground reference would probably have been lost 1 or 2 seconds later. With surely even way worse consequences. In that regard I consider this guy (and his Pax) lucky.

I agree - barrelling in inverted at high speed, a few hundred feet above the canopy, would be a lot worse than what happened.

[Rotorbee]

I wasn't sure, so I watched the video again. I think you hear a "clonk" and then comes the horn. He hit something first while turning, therefore all speculation about having enough power are pointless. He had to descend, otherwise he would haven in the clouds.
I looked in what region he was flying and he could have been between 6'000 to 7'000 feet, but a BA with 6 people on board should be able to handle that.

[212man]

Originally Posted by Rotorbee

I wasn't sure, so I watched the video again. I think you hear a "clonk" and then comes the horn. He hit something first while turning, therefore all speculation about having enough power are pointless. He had to descend, otherwise he would haven in the clouds.
I looked in what region he was flying and he could have been between 6'000 to 7'000 feet, but a BA with 6 people on board should be able to handle that.

Yes, I think that's exactly what happened. I don't think the rotor is turning at all after the noise of a collision - there is no gearbox whine

[[email protected]]

there is no gearbox whine

I should think all the whining was coming from his pax

I'm still amazed they all survived it, perhaps the trees they crashed into stopped it rolling down the mountain.

[Robbiee]

Just thought of something. The Scudd-Runners,...that's a good name for a band.

[Rotorbee]

... can I play the drums?

[luckyrat]

Originally Posted by Robbiee

Just thought of something. The Scudd-Runners,...that's a good name for a band.

Or a good name for keep doing it and eventually you will be DAMMED ☠️

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by Robbiee

Just thought of something. The Scudd-Runners,...that's a good name for a band.

I always thought "Full Down Auto" would make a great band name...

[Winemaker]

Here's a light aircraft scud runner having multiple warnings and chanes to turn back, ignoring them and getting sucked in to deteriorating conditions. Scary how push-on works. As a solo mountaineering guy I can't count the number of times I've just turned back even with the summit in sight......

Mods, if this is not appropriate to this thread please delete.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-sa...s/vfr-into-imc

[SASless]

I prefer the Title of Rud Scunner!

[SLFMS]

Originally Posted by Rotorbee

I wasn't sure, so I watched the video again. I think you hear a "clonk" and then comes the horn. He hit something first while turning, therefore all speculation about having enough power are pointless. He had to descend, otherwise he would haven in the clouds.
I looked in what region he was flying and he could have been between 6'000 to 7'000 feet, but a BA with 6 people on board should be able to handle that.

Rotorbee I rewatched too, you were right he hit the tree before the horn came on. It was the turn that came well before the impact not the horn. I’m still not convinced the turn was intentional though, at least the end of it anyway. He looks like he is sinking at the same time and you can certainly lose tail rotor authority while having flight RPM.
It could have been an intentional turn who knows? To me it seems very flat aggressive turn with low AOB that’s what leads me to think it might not have been intentional.
Whether it was or not doesn’t really matter I think everyone knew what went wrong before even watching the video.
It will be interesting to see what comes out in the accident report. Once upon a time when I was crazy enough to ride motor bikes I remember a Mate saying when he had an accident once how he climbed on the bike as it slid down the road to protect himself. I remember thinking BS, you happened to find yourself sitting on the bike while it was sliding down the road, there was no decision in that. Was the left turn initiated by the Pilot or the Aircraft? We will probably never know both are possible maybe it was a little of each.

[Rotorbee]

Well, it could be, but the AS350 isn't know for having a weak tail rotor. I tend to believe in occam's razor, therefore a left turn initiated by the pilot seems the most likely. Where else would he be going? He was slow, almost hovering. The ridge was to his left and behind and in front and right were clouds. I would rather look into pressure by the customer. A politician who ranted because he wasn't rescued fast enough. Some self appointed alpha male who didn't understand at all these clouds are not fluffy things you can just punch trough in a helicopter. He should be grateful to be alive and thank all the trees that cushioned the fall.

[SLFMS]

Originally Posted by Rotorbee

Well, it could be, but the AS350 isn't know for having a weak tail rotor. I tend to believe in occam's razor, therefore a left turn initiated by the pilot seems the most likely. Where else would he be going? He was slow, almost hovering. The ridge was to his left and behind and in front and right were clouds. I would rather look into pressure by the customer. A politician who ranted because he wasn't rescued fast enough. Some self appointed alpha male who didn't understand at all that clouds are not fluffy things you can just punch trough in a helicopter. He should be grateful to be alive and thank all the trees that cushioned the fall.

All good points Rotorbee and you may well be right. It is valid about turning back where he came from. I was going more along the lines of correlation not been the same as causation. Heavy Heli in the mountains pedal turns downwind off power and loses control with high rate of turn all while sinking stood out to me. It looks to me as if he turns downwind also based only on the clouds. I didn't analyze this one too thoroughly, the root cause is clear to everyone.

[Uplinker]

Thank you for the explanation at #61, Rotorbee

[helispotter]

Thanks to those who gave feedback on my earlier questions / comments. Unlike the R44 seemingly flying in IMC for considerable time until it crashed, this one at least shows a rapid transition from VMC (poor though it is) into IMC. If I was a pilot, I would take a lesson from this footage.

Prompted by more recent posts, I have watched the video several more times: Earlier, I felt the helicopter was already descending as it approached ridge, but watching the lead-up again, I now feel the helicopter was instead approaching a very steep ridge from below or at best around same altitude as that ridge (pilot attempting to remain below the clouds?) so as it got closer the ground 'climbed' to the helicopter. Also, briefly from about 0:30, the sound from the rotor seems to become 'deeper'? Could this be sound of rotors beginning to stall as pilot desperately tried to gain more clearance passing over the ridge? Or am I trying to read too much into the audio?! As with Rotorbee, I also hear the 'clonk' (first tree strike) within a second before the horn activating at 0:41. Unlike 212man, I have a feeling I can hear the remnants of the rotors still thrashing through the trees as the helicopter falls between 0:43 to 0:46. Thereafter mainly the sound of the turbine winding down (would this have been the pilot shutting down?) and groans from those on board.

[[email protected]]

Could this be sound of rotors beginning to stall as pilot desperately tried to gain more clearance passing over the ridge? Or am I trying to read too much into the audio?

No and yes respectively to your questions.

The pilot was doing what poorly trained people do - convincing himself if he stayed close to the ground he could make it over the ridge.

As others have said, it is best to approach a ridgeline from a 45 degree rather than head on as it gives you an escape option with an easy turn.

However, my rule #1 still applies - don't cross the ridge unless you can get high enough to see if it is clear on the other side. He didn't and was then surprised by the cloud clinging to the trees on the other side.

Once in that position he had essentially 2 options - A. punch up into IMC and climb to a safe altitude (probably not instrument rated or practised in the skills required) or B, try to turn round and get back over the ridge.

He tried option B, became disorientated and hit the trees - game over.

[Rotorbee]

If I was a pilot, I would take a lesson from this footage.

Well my friend, flying into IMC and the often resulting CFIT is one of the most cherished way to destroy perfectly healthy helicopters and human beings. We have tons of videos and lectures and fingers pointing at that fact, alas we continue doing scud running one a disturbingly regular basis, because more often than not, we get away with it. Even in the FW world, where cloud clearance is much stricter than just "clear of clouds" it happens way too often. And we brag about it. Flying up a mountain in fog so low you just can see the ground? I even got that as a tip for descending a mountain from my first instructor. Just point your nose towards the mountainside and slowly descend (of ascend as we read in a recent post about an English hill). I never did that because I never had to. But I am not sure, if I wouldn't have done it, once comfortable in an area I knew like the back of my hand. Absolutely stupid idea, I know, but I am human. Hopefully I would remember the time when I scud run over the water and almost crashed. But we will continue to do it. The pressure to get the job done because we need the money or going home instead of camping on a wet mountain top or just because we think we can do it is just too great and will very often defy logical decision making. After a while, most pilots confidence level is high enough to do things, that will get him into situations, where the pilot himself will afterwards say, that was stupid. In case of an accident, his colleagues will think it at the funeral. But to the family and his friends he was always such a cautious pilot and had so much experience.
But we have come a long way since the days, when another helicopter crash was just another footnote in a local newspaper. We have achieved a level of safety that is so much better than 30 years ago when I started. The rules are more strict and companies do not frown upon pilots anymore who take the decision not to fly (not all, unfortunately). Even if there is a child with 60% of his body burned. We are doing better, but this video isn't exceptional enough to change anything. It is just one more story among many. The final report will be much more useful, because we finally would know, why he did it.

[SASless]

Helicopter Pilots are not. the most clever members of the Human Race for sure....they keep right on killing themselves and their passengers using time tested and proven methods.

Rare is it a new fancy and unheard method.

A disclaimer.....I am a member of both groups but somehow did not have a successful attempt at proving my theory despite many attempts.