Training on grass

[[email protected]]

how does training to grass promote proper groundspeed at touchdown?

If the required standard is as short a run on as possible then it doesn't but if tarmac inclines people to accept faster run ons because it is more forgiving then it does.

[aa777888]

Originally Posted by SASless

My Army EOL training used both pavement and unpaved landing areas....but the standard was the same....one skid length ground slide maximum to receive a passing grade on the maneuver.

Exactly! The surface should not matter from a grading standpoint.

Indeed, training this standard to pavement is not only safer, but represents a greater challenge to the student because the lower coefficient of friction on pavement means you actually have to have a lower groundspeed at touchdown.

[[email protected]]

Indeed, training this standard to pavement is not only safer, but represents a greater challenge to the student because the lower coefficient of friction on pavement means you actually have to have a lower groundspeed at touchdown.

And is that in fact the standard set for training in the US (not military)?

[aa777888]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

And is that in fact the standard set for training in the US (not military)?

That's a non sequitur, it is not relevant to the discussion. And you know the answer already, because you know the FAA does not require full-downs at the private and commercial checkrides. So surface type is almost moot in the US unless actually practicing full-downs. I say "almost" because there is the possibility of an "accidental full-down". I know this because I have to admit to having an "accidental full-down" once when I was late rolling on. I am happy to report it was on asphalt and that ground slide was less than a skid length

However, learning experience for me: I just looked at the FAA CFI-H checkride PTS and there is absolutely no performance standards other than to properly perform the maneuver! I was surprised! But this does not mean that I support the use of grass or other challenging surfaces to motivate proper airmanship. That should be the province of the instructor.

In thinking about this even more critically, there must be some value in practicing on grass in order to see what it feels like to slide on it. But the question is whether that juice is worth the squeeze in a civilian environment. In a military environment where money is effectively unlimited for replacement of balled up helicopters, there is no cost of insurance, no danger of civil lawsuits, and training helicopters with much greater margins of performance, an assumption of the greater risk probably makes good sense. But in a civilian environment the costs to the training environment compared to the costs incurred by actual EOL emergencies don't justify the return on investment. And this is why the FAA training requirements appear to be so weak, but are actually saving lives and equipment overall. I.e. the total number of fatalities and accidents per year associated with EOLs was higher because there were too many happening in training. With the "relaxed" standards people seem to be crashing and dying at the same rate after training, and a lot fewer during training, so a net improvement.

P.S. I edited this because my original last few sentences were not clear enough.

[Robbiee]

You know it just occurred to me, the last time I did hover autos was to a grass area in between the ramp and runway down in Torrance while attending the Robby class about a year and a half ago. Can't believe I forgot that. I feel so cultured now!

[Gordy]

Originally Posted by Robbiee

You know it just occurred to me, the last time I did hover autos was to a grass area in between the ramp and runway down in Torrance while attending the Robby class about a year and a half ago. Can't believe I forgot that. I feel so cultured now!

Ahhh, but was it green grass or it will not count to the "auto gods".....

[SASless]

Try doing them to a Rice Paddy....when they are all nice pretty and green...and full of water and knee deep mud!

Run On's are not recommended!

[megan]

Best auto seen was a fully loaded Charlie model Huey, had a failure at about 200' and put it down on a rice paddy dyke, sitting on its belly with the skids overhanging the dyke and not touching ground. Don't think he even scratched the paint work.

[SASless]

Are you suggesting it was a "belly landing" with skid gear up?

[MLH]

Originally Posted by Robbiee

The grass on the left has kids playing soccer. The hard surface on the right has kids playing hockey. Pick one?

Right between the two with a zero GS touchdown.

[[email protected]]

With the "relaxed" standards people seem to be crashing and dying at the same rate after training, and a lot fewer during training, so a net improvement.

That could be interpreted as a failure since improved training should lead to fewer crashes and fatals after training

[aa777888]

Originally Posted by MLH

Right between the two with a zero GS touchdown.

Don't forget the pedal turn into a reverse flare at the end because, you know, points for style and all that sort of thing

[SASless]

Crab.....dear boy....shame on you!

Your memory must be deteriorating as you age.

Helicopter Pilots are a rather dull bunch....as they keep on killing themselves in tried and proven methods no matter how much training they get.

For sure...they are not innovative at all as rarely is it a new and unique thing they do to cause their own demise.

[Robbiee]

Originally Posted by MLH

Right between the two with a zero GS touchdown.

Ah,...smash the parents. Good choice.

[MLH]

Originally Posted by Robbiee

Ah,...smash the parents. Good choice.

Preoccupied with their mobile devices, they wouldn't know what hit them.