Training on grass
Avoid imitations
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For many years, the British Armed Forces have not (deliberately) conducted EOLs onto anything other than grass, for both wheeled and skidded helicopters. Engine off areas (at RAFs Shawbury, Ternhill, Chetwynd, Middle Wallop etc) were all grass. FYI, both Crab and myself were RAF QHIs, btw. I first did my solo EOLs as a basic student in a Whirlwind 10 onto grass in 1979.
I guess you and I will disagree, then. I'll stick with the recommendations of my instructors and the likes of Tim Tucker, Shawn Coyle, and others. It's a clearly divisive issue though, as this topic shows with ample numbers of posters coming down (hah, a pun!) on both sides of the question.
Having done full downs in an R22, then seeing how much RIDICULOUSLY easier they are in anything I've been in that's even slightly bigger, I have to say There really is no reason to do full down autos at all.. If you can't do a successful full down auto in a big bad "real" helicopter after just practicing power recovery autos and hover autos, then damn dude,...?! 
Avoid imitations
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Aaahh, the Scout, about the most testing thing there is in which to do autos, but the funnest thing to fly. I don't know what the aversion is to doing autos on grass, what are the inherent dangers? Our military skid helos unit only ever did them to grass and not one issue ever arose that I'm aware of, though we did have a Wessex do a night auto to a runway and put the tail wheel up through the tail cone, night autos were promptly banned.
Aaahh, the Scout, about the most testing thing there is in which to do autos, but the funnest thing to fly. I don't know what the aversion is to doing autos on grass, what are the inherent dangers? Our military skid helos unit only ever did them to grass and not one issue ever arose that I'm aware of, though we did have a Wessex do a night auto to a runway and put the tail wheel up through the tail cone, night autos were promptly banned.
I’d take issue with that having done autos and EOL’s on both. The Wasp was marginally worse. Heavier for one thing, the flot gear interfered with induced flow, so it came down like the proverbial brick outhouse. And then the skewed in gear, in land mode, which caused snaking on landing. It behoved one to ensure the wheel locks were out prior to the first one.
At least one a season came back from Merryfield on the back of a Queen Mary having been “top hatted”.
Finally I seem to recall doing engine offs to both the grass and the tarmac at Culdrose in the Gazelle back in the day. Much to the chagrin of the maintainers.
Still got my dayglo ‘frange’ !!!
Two of the trappers did a SK double engine out at Predannack, and, bounced on the tail wheel on landing, and pitched forward damaging the aerials at the front. So minor bending of the cab. Naturally, because it was the trappers, and two of them together at that, beggar all was done about it.
Last edited by MENELAUS; 14th May 2021 at 04:15.
Naturally, because it was the trappers, and two of them together at that, beggar all was done about it.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
It was generally acknowledged amongst the senior QHIs that two A2s flying together had far more potential for 'interesting' flights
Originally Posted by [email protected]
It was generally acknowledged amongst the senior QHIs that two A2s flying together had far more potential for 'interesting' flights
Or you could be paired up with “Spitoon” (may he RIP) as your stick buddy. Kerrist. Not sure how I’m still here. !!
Did you read this topic from the top?
Or you could be paired up with “Spitoon” (may he RIP) as your stick buddy. Kerrist. Not sure how I’m still here. !!
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The Wasp was marginally worse. Heavier for one thing, the flot gear interfered with induced flow, so it came down like the proverbial brick outhouse. And then the skewed in gear, in land mode, which caused snaking on landing. It behoved one to ensure the wheel locks were out prior to the first one. At least one a season came back from Merryfield on the back of a Queen Mary having been “top hatted”.
The contrast to the Wasp was stark. Those annual trips to Merryfield were fun, but perhaps not for the beefers, who could not really hide their terror of what we everyday pilots might do. It was no good flaring at the height of all your practice autos, or you would find yourself hanging in the air like Wile E Coyote and with a similar result. With the wheels pinned fore and aft and no brakes, any significant forward speed could see you 100m down the runway before coming to a halt. No grass for this exercise.
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I suspect the type of surface had little to do with those accidents.
You know I've been thinking. In my area I'm far more likely to have a forced landing end up wet than on this mythical substance you all call...grass? So anyway, what is the consensus on jumping in an old Mariner and practicing full downs to the water? Worth the risk? Not worth the risk?
I'd love to give it a try myself, but strangely enough none of the schools here have ever had Mariners.
I'd love to give it a try myself, but strangely enough none of the schools here have ever had Mariners.
So anyway, what is the consensus on jumping in an old Mariner and practicing full downs to the water? Worth the risk? Not worth the risk?
Gordy, Photo 1 and 3 look as though they had no choice and the areas not surveyed for the purpose of practicing autos, the second the result of a flare problem and nothing to do with grass.
Is it true, or just bar talk, that you Brits used to do autos in the Whirlwind not using any collective at the bottom, by running it on on the rear wheels in the flare?
[QUOTE=ShyTorque;11043376]Sycamore - how do you get a Gazelle into "manual"? There's no fuel computer.....
According to the flight manual Section 3 Emergency Procedures.
"Move the fuel flow control lever (rearwards) to obtain 43000 rpm and continue in level flight,if possible at a constant pitch."
Pitch changes require further throttle adjustment and the requirement is to land in autorotation.
Alarm warning light will be on.
Having had a look at the flight manual, training notes and the engine manual I am at a loss as to how the governor is actually isolated from the fuel circuit.
Looks to be a mechanical action caused by retarding the throttle, but I can't work it out.
If anyone has a solution I would be pleased to see it.
According to the flight manual Section 3 Emergency Procedures.
"Move the fuel flow control lever (rearwards) to obtain 43000 rpm and continue in level flight,if possible at a constant pitch."
Pitch changes require further throttle adjustment and the requirement is to land in autorotation.
Alarm warning light will be on.
Having had a look at the flight manual, training notes and the engine manual I am at a loss as to how the governor is actually isolated from the fuel circuit.
Looks to be a mechanical action caused by retarding the throttle, but I can't work it out.
If anyone has a solution I would be pleased to see it.
I investigated all three of the accidents.
It actually did, the first two touched front of the skids first and because the "toes" dug in, there was no way for the skids to spread and slide.
#2 was at the airport between two taxiways and was a known training area as evidenced by the skid marks. #1 & # 3 were in Area "A", a known training area that was used daily.
#1 was a new instructor who was demonstrating having too much forward trim and allowing the helicopter to run onto the ground with forward motion...
# 2 was a checkride for CFI demonstrating a touch down auto. The examiner had a rather large stomach and the student left it too late to flare and thereby attempted an aggressive flare but ran out of cyclic as it hit the instructors belly....they hit the ground fast and the skids "dug in"...
# 3 Actually the third was a "flare" problem in that the instructor was not authorized to conduct touchdown autos and he did a "power recovery" to a hover auto and bounced forward pulling full aft cyclic---had he been to a hard surface, there is a good chance the skids would have spread a little and then skidded not compressed and then sprung up.
So yes, I believe, (and again just MY opinion), that all three of these would have had different outcomes had they have been made to a hard surface. Full TD autos can be conducted to grass safely but not all pilots possess the skills to do so.
It actually did, the first two touched front of the skids first and because the "toes" dug in, there was no way for the skids to spread and slide.
#1 was a new instructor who was demonstrating having too much forward trim and allowing the helicopter to run onto the ground with forward motion...
# 2 was a checkride for CFI demonstrating a touch down auto. The examiner had a rather large stomach and the student left it too late to flare and thereby attempted an aggressive flare but ran out of cyclic as it hit the instructors belly....they hit the ground fast and the skids "dug in"...
# 3 Actually the third was a "flare" problem in that the instructor was not authorized to conduct touchdown autos and he did a "power recovery" to a hover auto and bounced forward pulling full aft cyclic---had he been to a hard surface, there is a good chance the skids would have spread a little and then skidded not compressed and then sprung up.
So yes, I believe, (and again just MY opinion), that all three of these would have had different outcomes had they have been made to a hard surface. Full TD autos can be conducted to grass safely but not all pilots possess the skills to do so.