Training on grass
Is this just an example of dumbing down training? If you can't do an EOL/full down auto to a grass surface because you can't keep it straight for the touchdown, you shouldn't be allowed out in a helicopter on your own.
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We have got significant damage on a 206 during auto training on grass. When landed, the aft part of BOTH skids dipped in a sort of potholes, that were left behind by agricultural machinery-tractor, that dug two holes in a distance, exactly matching skids distance. (obviously made by tractor wheels that dug into softened soil during last rain) Potholes were perfectly hidden in grass. When collective was lowered, heli tilted backwards resulting in abrupt stick-forward reaction. A severe mast-bumping followed so mast, M/R Hub, XMSN mounts etc. had to be replaced. You never know what is hiding in the grass as long as it is not verified every time.
As a glider pilot, I was taught never to try out-of-airport landing on the grass, however temptating, if a plowed field is available too. This came with decades of experience. (and many damaged planes)
As a glider pilot, I was taught never to try out-of-airport landing on the grass, however temptating, if a plowed field is available too. This came with decades of experience. (and many damaged planes)
Different types, such as a high wing with side doors (Cessna 152 etc), maybe.
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I could never land an R22 from auto without making at least a 10ft skid on grass, perhaps others better than me could do better but I was more focussed on developing a consistent technique with less risk. H300, B206 and A350 are easy enough to land with little to no forward skidding.
But what's the big deal, we practice TR failures touching down at faster speeds than an auto using the throttle/airspeed/wind to control where the nose is pointing just before touchdown, collective to gently brake, and cyclic to control nose direction when on the ground.
I once recall watching a lifestyle TV show where unexpectedly Nick Lappos turns up and performs an auto in a JetRanger onto a taxiway - he skidded for miles (maybe I'm exaggerating a little) but the grating sound coming from the skids was just awful.
But what's the big deal, we practice TR failures touching down at faster speeds than an auto using the throttle/airspeed/wind to control where the nose is pointing just before touchdown, collective to gently brake, and cyclic to control nose direction when on the ground.
I once recall watching a lifestyle TV show where unexpectedly Nick Lappos turns up and performs an auto in a JetRanger onto a taxiway - he skidded for miles (maybe I'm exaggerating a little) but the grating sound coming from the skids was just awful.
We have got significant damage on a 206 during auto training on grass. When landed, the aft part of BOTH skids dipped in a sort of potholes, that were left behind by agricultural machinery-tractor, that dug two holes in a distance, exactly matching skids distance. (obviously made by tractor wheels that dug into softened soil during last rain) Potholes were perfectly hidden in grass. When collective was lowered, heli tilted backwards resulting in abrupt stick-forward reaction. A severe mast-bumping followed so mast, M/R Hub, XMSN mounts etc. had to be replaced. You never know what is hiding in the grass as long as it is not verified every time.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Is this just an example of dumbing down training? If you can't do an EOL/full down auto to a grass surface because you can't keep it straight for the touchdown, you shouldn't be allowed out in a helicopter on your own.
That said, in the US there is a lot of risk/reward management going on within the civil (not military) training system when it comes to auto's. With most training being done in Robinsons, full-downs are not required to be taught or demonstrated on a private or commercial check-ride. The training accident to real accident ratio was, so I'm told, becoming quite poor, and since most machines being bent or balled in a "real" auto were not resulting in a lot of fatalities, the juice just didn't seem worth the squeeze. Perhaps more interestingly, recently the full-down became optional on the CFI check-ride because too many FAA DPEs were not current enough in Robinsons to save a CFI check-ride candidate's bacon, and their own. One has to show up with a full-down endorsement from their instructor though. As usual, some of this gets fixed by the insurance underwriters who require pilots to go to Bell school, or Airbus school, or some sort of additional training.
P.S. scary noises and the smell of burning carbide are not good reasons to not practice to hard surfaces.
If you can demonstrate the ability to land at a reasonable forward speed with the skids pointed in the right direction, why not practice and demonstrate that skill on the safest, most forgiving surface possible? There is nothing gained by demonstrating it to grass.
If you let people only demonstrate their skill on a surface which lets you get away with sloppy heading control you are ticking a training box rather than keeping up to a standard (sadly something all too common nowadays).
The fact that instructors and inspectors struggle is exactly what I mean by dumbing down training.
The widespread use of Robinsons and their lack of suitability as a training machine (due to number of accidents) has driven down training standards in the industry as a whole - well done Frank!
The widespread use of Robinsons and their lack of suitability as a training machine (due to number of accidents) has driven down training standards in the industry as a whole - well done Frank!
You should try EOLs in a Gazelle, a Squirrel or a Jetbox - all much, much easier than an R22 and much more fun - you can actually explore variable flare, variable check and variable cushion in comfort.
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The Whirlwind was even better when it came to variety.....range autos at 80kts and 180 RRPM....you could see the blades going round.
RAF students on the basic course were required to do a solo engine offs sortie. I don’t recall ever hearing about a solo student pranging one. All to grass.
RAF students on the basic course were required to do a solo engine offs sortie. I don’t recall ever hearing about a solo student pranging one. All to grass.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 12th May 2021 at 15:33. Reason: me grammar
Sounds like the extended range EOL on a Gazelle - droop the Nr back from 380 to 330 at 90 kts, it certainly made a difference, you just had to remember to recover the Nr before the EOL itself.
Crab /Shy...you should have tried Gazelle on skis at 1900kg onto snow/ice ,in manual...
Anyway,the WW was excellent ,even at 170 RRPM...Here`s one I prepared earlier,and maybe a familiar `face` for some of you `older chaps/ses...Cab was repaired in a month or so...
be careful landing on sand
Anyway,the WW was excellent ,even at 170 RRPM...Here`s one I prepared earlier,and maybe a familiar `face` for some of you `older chaps/ses...Cab was repaired in a month or so...
be careful landing on sand
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Sounds like the extended range EOL on a Gazelle - droop the Nr back from 380 to 330 at 90 kts, it certainly made a difference, you just had to remember to recover the Nr before the EOL itself.
After my B2 - B1 check ride on the Gazelle, my CFS examiner (Dennis H) told me that now that I should always remember never to trust a student because any of them would be capable of trying to kill me! He recalled his time as a newly qualified instructor on the Whirlwind and how he got into the habit of feeling for the collective towards the final part of EOLs being flown by his students (didn't we all?).
However, on one memorable occasion he thought that things weren't going quite right early on during the autorotation. He felt for the collective and couldn't find it! He then looked down and saw that it was almost fully raised and his hand was well below it; he was feeling thin air. Meanwhile the RRPM had reduced to very little and was still going down. The aircraft went in, out of control, from a hundred feet or so. Thankfully in a Whirlwind there was a lot of aircraft to act as a crumple zone below the pilots' backsides and they both survived. Never forgot that sage advice...almost forty years ago now.
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There was a memorable set of skid marks at Ternhill during the winter of 1984-85 (I was instructing on 1 Sqn). We had just reached the EOL teaching stage of the Gazelle Course when there was a heavy snow fall, followed by rain then which then froze solid, leaving a hard crust and powder snow below. I was sent to check out the "EOL Triangle" area at Ternhill (large grass area between the cross runways 28 and 22). It wasn't safe because there was no contrast on the totally smooth snow so it would have been very difficult to estimate height for the flare. I suggested that ATC might drive their Land Rover around to generate some ruts....they did so and it was game on.
A couple of days later, we were all amazed to see a very impressive set of skid tracks which began at the southern end of the triangle, carry on completely northbound across its full length, up over the tarmac runway 22, over onto the northern grass, up over the tarmac perimeter track, across more grass outside that and finally stop on the upward sloping ground area just by the trees on the northern airfield boundary. This was a distance of nearly half a mile!!
I did find out who was involved...(he said they both nearly soiled their pants because they thought it would never stop) but no names mentioned
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Grass is a safe and forgiving surface
and is at least a better representation of what you might have to deal with in the real case.
If you let people only demonstrate their skill on a surface which lets you get away with sloppy heading control you are ticking a training box rather than keeping up to a standard (sadly something all too common nowadays).
The fact that instructors and inspectors struggle is exactly what I mean by dumbing down training.
The widespread use of Robinsons and their lack of suitability as a training machine (due to number of accidents) has driven down training standards in the industry as a whole - well done Frank!
Bash the machine all you want. It's made rotary wing flight, personal and business, possible for many thousands of people. In the US the helicopter industry would be horribly maimed if they should all suddenly go away. I, personally, would not be flying helicopters if Robinson did not exist. It's a risk/reward tradeoff I'm willing to make, and I invest a lot of time, energy and money making sure I get the best training possible in order to manage the limitations of the machine.
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Skid Marks
We use to have a student we nick named the cresta run for obvious reasons, when it came round to the annual test we use to get a different examiner in to let them have a surprise!
We reckon once definitely covered over 100yards, oh what fun!
We reckon once definitely covered over 100yards, oh what fun!
aa777888 - grass is a perfectly safe surface for EOLs - even a runway will roll you over if you get the technique wrong.
The British Military have conducted hundreds of thousands of EOLs to grass over 50 plus years and the number of accidents has been miniscule.
I, like others, used to train instructors which included sending them solo (with a stick buddy on the same course) that made for some interesting rides because not only did they have to fly their own EOLs but they had to correct errors I made to simulate student cock-ups.
All this done on grass and if you saw what we allowed the students to do and how close to the edge we needed to get them to build their confidence, you would not regard me as risk-averse. It's a different sort of risk to winching on a mountainside in the dark, wind and rain but a risk all the same.
Sounds like people are struggling to me. If the accident ratio was as high as you suggest - where does the fault lie? Is it the unsuitability of the aircraft for the task, the ability of instructors and examiners to monitor and correct student errors, or a combination of both? Either way the teaching and standards are being diluted.
The British Military have conducted hundreds of thousands of EOLs to grass over 50 plus years and the number of accidents has been miniscule.
I, like others, used to train instructors which included sending them solo (with a stick buddy on the same course) that made for some interesting rides because not only did they have to fly their own EOLs but they had to correct errors I made to simulate student cock-ups.
All this done on grass and if you saw what we allowed the students to do and how close to the edge we needed to get them to build their confidence, you would not regard me as risk-averse. It's a different sort of risk to winching on a mountainside in the dark, wind and rain but a risk all the same.
recently the full-down became optional on the CFI check-ride because too many FAA DPEs were not current enough in Robinsons to save a CFI check-ride candidate's bacon, and their own
Crab/Shy, I spent several winters in Canada doing icing trials,WX,S-K,Wasp and Gaz. Part of the Gaz.trials was flying around in `manual`,hyds -off`,b`cos thats what the engineers wanted as part of the clearance..I had spinach every day,arms pumped like Arnies,and chewed the ends off my pipes...Hurling curling stones,or `ten-pin balls` was not a problem,and the fem/male ratio in Ottawa was 7/1 at the time.......!
Nobody remember `Langers` in the photos...?
Nobody remember `Langers` in the photos...?
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
aa777888 - grass is a perfectly safe surface for EOLs
Sounds like people are struggling to me. If the accident ratio was as high as you suggest - where does the fault lie? Is it the unsuitability of the aircraft for the task, the ability of instructors and examiners to monitor and correct student errors, or a combination of both? Either way the teaching and standards are being diluted.
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Sounds like people are struggling to me. If the accident ratio was as high as you suggest - where does the fault lie? Is it the unsuitability of the aircraft for the task, the ability of instructors and examiners to monitor and correct student errors, or a combination of both? Either way the teaching and standards are being diluted.
Avoid imitations
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Crab/Shy, I spent several winters in Canada doing icing trials,WX,S-K,Wasp and Gaz. Part of the Gaz.trials was flying around in `manual`,hyds -off`,b`cos thats what the engineers wanted as part of the clearance..I had spinach every day,arms pumped like Arnies,and chewed the ends off my pipes...Hurling curling stones,or `ten-pin balls` was not a problem,and the fem/male ratio in Ottawa was 7/1 at the time.......!
Nobody remember `Langers` in the photos...?
Nobody remember `Langers` in the photos...?
I would have recognised Dick L but unfortunately the photos aren't clear enough on my screen to see faces in detail.