N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Update-
Why is it so difficult to believe that the pilot’s over-estimation of his abilities, nurtured by a poor culture that valued celebrity above safety and ignored by shoddy oversight is what caused this terrible accident?
There is no amount of automation or “what ifs” that will undo that combination.
There is nothing mysterious about this or any other LOC accident.
There is no amount of automation or “what ifs” that will undo that combination.
There is nothing mysterious about this or any other LOC accident.
The weather in the SW of UK today was very similar to what Ara had to deal with - a marine layer of cloud at 4 - 500' agl with poor visibility beneath, less than 1.5SM.
I took the opportunity to shoot some video on a training sortie to show those without the real world experience what such conditions look like - you can decide for yourselves whether 140 kts is a suitable speed for the conditions or if a 180 turn is a realistic option if you enter cloud.
A second video reiterates how easy a descending left hand spiral descent is to recover from - if you use the correct technique. No use of AP modes or GA, just basic but competent instrument skills from a colleague.
As soon as the videos upload I will add links to this post.
I took the opportunity to shoot some video on a training sortie to show those without the real world experience what such conditions look like - you can decide for yourselves whether 140 kts is a suitable speed for the conditions or if a 180 turn is a realistic option if you enter cloud.
A second video reiterates how easy a descending left hand spiral descent is to recover from - if you use the correct technique. No use of AP modes or GA, just basic but competent instrument skills from a colleague.
As soon as the videos upload I will add links to this post.
On the other hand, plenty of pilots seem to take a perfectly good AFCS, with attitude hold, and put it in SAS mode with the force trim turned off when flying VFR!
On the other hand, plenty of pilots seem to take a perfectly good AFCS, with attitude hold, and put it in SAS mode with the force trim turned off when flying VFR
As did I during periods of maneuvering, auto functions & trim punched off on downwind for landing. In Ara's case that would have been the mode I would have been flying, with the automatics set to take over should they be required. We were a VMC operation that did plenty of scud running, and dare I say plenty of far less than legal low level IMC at 300 - 500', as Gulli can attest.
I would hypothesize that if Ara was following a road then he was in ATT or SAS mode and using the FTR to make inputs, almost certainly not coupled. Encountering deteriorating viz he depressed the FTR to initiate a climb, a combination of poor instrument scan and task saturation caused him to tense and hold the FTR allowing an unusual attitude to develop.
It is not called the button of death in IMC conditions for nothing. How many times have we seen this occur in the sim?
Exactly, and I could never work out why the FTR was the button of death. So much so it became SOP to insist the trainees fly in ATT mode with hands off the controls and using only the trim switch (or heading bug when coupled) for manouevering the aircraft. That lead to far less incidents of turning upside down and punching holes in the ground. I could readily understand the accident pilot flying it into the ground if his prior training did not insist the aircraft be flown in IMC in this way.
My point is, he should not have been flying in SAS mode, and it seems possible he might have been.
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
The weather in the SW of UK today was very similar to what Ara had to deal with - a marine layer of cloud at 4 - 500' agl with poor visibility beneath, less than 1.5SM.
I took the opportunity to shoot some video on a training sortie to show those without the real world experience what such conditions look like - you can decide for yourselves whether 140 kts is a suitable speed for the conditions or if a 180 turn is a realistic option if you enter cloud.
A second video reiterates how easy a descending left hand spiral descent is to recover from - if you use the correct technique. No use of AP modes or GA, just basic but competent instrument skills from a colleague.
As soon as the videos upload I will add links to this post.
https://vimeo.com/518806704
https://vimeo.com/518881997
I took the opportunity to shoot some video on a training sortie to show those without the real world experience what such conditions look like - you can decide for yourselves whether 140 kts is a suitable speed for the conditions or if a 180 turn is a realistic option if you enter cloud.
A second video reiterates how easy a descending left hand spiral descent is to recover from - if you use the correct technique. No use of AP modes or GA, just basic but competent instrument skills from a colleague.
As soon as the videos upload I will add links to this post.
https://vimeo.com/518806704
https://vimeo.com/518881997
I know you already saw it, but I feel that my video reconstruction of the crash that I published last May has aged well in light of the NTSB final report and your videos.
Last edited by airplanecrazy; 3rd Mar 2021 at 15:00.
Frankly, when we are having a conversation about the FTR being called the "button of death" we are exhibiting how amateurish an industry we seem to have evolved into. I think one of the reasons we have so many automation issues is because many pilots don't even understand the basics about AFCS and SAS, let alone upper modes. I wonder if some of the attitudes (no pun intended) are based on having zero fixed wing time? I'm sure that any pilot that has initially learned to fly on FW (especially with a gnarly old QFI smacking him around the helmet when out of trim!) first will have a different view and approach to the use of the trim function.
Crab - a PAR I assume, as lots of red flags and frozen needles!
Yes....
i am not a pilot, but is it fair to say that without automation the UA is recoverable ONLY IF you are doing an instrument scan?
Its easy to look at a training exercise and agree with what the corrective action should be. Thing is, in the real world, the brain that decides to go scudd running is the brain that is not running on all cylinders, so you cannot expect it to make rational decisions.
I was wearing my "Land and Live" cap when I went IIMC so,...
I was wearing my "Land and Live" cap when I went IIMC so,...
While that scenario is speculation, I have observed crews in the sim trying to engage upper modes in the 412 after take off and before punching in only to realize they missed a step. Between 2 of them they figure it out
But, and here comes the what if.....He was in SAS instead of ATT and when things started going pear shaped he tried to couple and may have added a further distraction trying to figure out why the AFCS would not couple up.
While that scenario is speculation, I have observed crews in the sim trying to engage upper modes in the 412 after take off and before punching in only to realize they missed a step. Between 2 of them they figure it out
While that scenario is speculation, I have observed crews in the sim trying to engage upper modes in the 412 after take off and before punching in only to realize they missed a step. Between 2 of them they figure it out
Airplane crazy - the UA recovery can be done with or without AP and force trim but not without looking at the instruments.
The whole process of learning to instrument fly is about building an effective scan, being logical in correcting errors and most of all believing your instruments.
You do have sensations of descent, roll, pitch yaw etc but when you are in cloud, the feedback loop to confirm these sensations - your visual picture of the outside world - is missing and must be replaced by the use of the instruments.
Robbiee - the whole point of the exercise is to highlight that even if you are not firing on all cylinders when you set off to scud-run - you can recover the IIMC nightmare if you have been trained to and then use the correct techniques. I have used the same process for deliberate entry into IMC and IIMC in some stressful SAR scenarios - it works. And it works in everything from an unstabilised Gazelle through to a 139.
You don't have to be an IFR rated pilot to learn the basics of instrument flight - it could save your life one day.
212man - yes, EGDR rw11
- I completely agree with your comment about poor understanding of AP modes, whether it be SAS vs ATT or upper FD modes
The whole process of learning to instrument fly is about building an effective scan, being logical in correcting errors and most of all believing your instruments.
You do have sensations of descent, roll, pitch yaw etc but when you are in cloud, the feedback loop to confirm these sensations - your visual picture of the outside world - is missing and must be replaced by the use of the instruments.
Robbiee - the whole point of the exercise is to highlight that even if you are not firing on all cylinders when you set off to scud-run - you can recover the IIMC nightmare if you have been trained to and then use the correct techniques. I have used the same process for deliberate entry into IMC and IIMC in some stressful SAR scenarios - it works. And it works in everything from an unstabilised Gazelle through to a 139.
You don't have to be an IFR rated pilot to learn the basics of instrument flight - it could save your life one day.
212man - yes, EGDR rw11
- I completely agree with your comment about poor understanding of AP modes, whether it be SAS vs ATT or upper FD modes
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Robbiee - the whole point of the exercise is to highlight that even if you are not firing on all cylinders when you set off to scud-run - you can recover the IIMC nightmare if you have been trained to and then use the correct techniques. I have used the same process for deliberate entry into IMC and IIMC in some stressful SAR scenarios - it works. And it works in everything from an unstabilised Gazelle through to a 139.
I have absolutely no idea how to prevent these types of accidents.
Everyone has moments when the need to get the job done or need to get home impinges on their decision making and there are few pilots who haven't taken a chance during their flying careers - you won't ever prevent that - but at least you can arm them with the training and skills to get themselves out of the poo when it goes wrong.
This case, along with the two 139 crashes mentioned earlier are exactly a case of poor decision making coupled to a lack of training to recover when those poor decisions overtook them.
In all 3 cases, basic instrument flying skills would have saved them IF they had been applied.
This case, along with the two 139 crashes mentioned earlier are exactly a case of poor decision making coupled to a lack of training to recover when those poor decisions overtook them.
In all 3 cases, basic instrument flying skills would have saved them IF they had been applied.
But, and here comes the what if.....He was in SAS instead of ATT and when things started going pear shaped he tried to couple and may have added a further distraction trying to figure out why the AFCS would not couple up.
While that scenario is speculation, I have observed crews in the sim trying to engage upper modes in the 412 after take off and before punching in only to realize they missed a step. Between 2 of them they figure it out
While that scenario is speculation, I have observed crews in the sim trying to engage upper modes in the 412 after take off and before punching in only to realize they missed a step. Between 2 of them they figure it out
