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N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Update-

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N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Update-

Old 2nd Mar 2021, 17:50
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Why is it so difficult to believe that the pilotís over-estimation of his abilities, nurtured by a poor culture that valued celebrity above safety and ignored by shoddy oversight is what caused this terrible accident?
There is no amount of automation or ďwhat ifsĒ that will undo that combination.
There is nothing mysterious about this or any other LOC accident.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 20:50
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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The weather in the SW of UK today was very similar to what Ara had to deal with - a marine layer of cloud at 4 - 500' agl with poor visibility beneath, less than 1.5SM.

I took the opportunity to shoot some video on a training sortie to show those without the real world experience what such conditions look like - you can decide for yourselves whether 140 kts is a suitable speed for the conditions or if a 180 turn is a realistic option if you enter cloud.

A second video reiterates how easy a descending left hand spiral descent is to recover from - if you use the correct technique. No use of AP modes or GA, just basic but competent instrument skills from a colleague.

As soon as the videos upload I will add links to this post.





Last edited by [email protected]; 3rd Mar 2021 at 08:11.
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Old 2nd Mar 2021, 21:51
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
Possibly the pilot believed the SAS or AFCS was engaged when it wasn't?
Believe me, you donít fly an S76 at 140kts with no stabilisation and not know it!

On the other hand, plenty of pilots seem to take a perfectly good AFCS, with attitude hold, and put it in SAS mode with the force trim turned off when flying VFR!
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 02:03
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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On the other hand, plenty of pilots seem to take a perfectly good AFCS, with attitude hold, and put it in SAS mode with the force trim turned off when flying VFR
As did I during periods of maneuvering, auto functions & trim punched off on downwind for landing. In Ara's case that would have been the mode I would have been flying, with the automatics set to take over should they be required. We were a VMC operation that did plenty of scud running, and dare I say plenty of far less than legal low level IMC at 300 - 500', as Gulli can attest.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 06:23
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
As did I during periods of maneuvering, auto functions & trim punched off on downwind for landing. In Ara's case that would have been the mode I would have been flying, with the automatics set to take over should they be required. We were a VMC operation that did plenty of scud running, and dare I say plenty of far less than legal low level IMC at 300 - 500', as Gulli can attest.
In the report of the Bahamas accident It was noted that the FTR was held in throughout the take off. A well lit environment to complete darkness.
I would hypothesize that if Ara was following a road then he was in ATT or SAS mode and using the FTR to make inputs, almost certainly not coupled. Encountering deteriorating viz he depressed the FTR to initiate a climb, a combination of poor instrument scan and task saturation caused him to tense and hold the FTR allowing an unusual attitude to develop.

It is not called the button of death in IMC conditions for nothing. How many times have we seen this occur in the sim?
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 09:04
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by donner89 View Post
...How many times have we seen this occur in the sim?
Exactly, and I could never work out why the FTR was the button of death. So much so it became SOP to insist the trainees fly in ATT mode with hands off the controls and using only the trim switch (or heading bug when coupled) for manouevering the aircraft. That lead to far less incidents of turning upside down and punching holes in the ground. I could readily understand the accident pilot flying it into the ground if his prior training did not insist the aircraft be flown in IMC in this way.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 09:23
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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The S76B with the SPZ7000 will not couple the Flight Director in SAS mode - only ATT Mode with LNAV/VNAV choices displayed on the top of the PFD.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 09:28
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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My point is, he should not have been flying in SAS mode, and it seems possible he might have been.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 12:00
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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My point is, he should not have been flying in SAS mode, and it seems possible he might have been.
And an SPZ 7000 equipped S-76 in SAS mode alone is less stable that an AFCS Hamilton Standard Phase II in my experience.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 12:38
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
Possibly the pilot believed the SAS or AFCS was engaged when it wasn't?
Im fairly certain that anyone who flies an S76 will tell you, flying with the AFCS disengaged is most definitely noticeable. You'd have to be unconscious to not notice a disengaged AFCS.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 13:18
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
The weather in the SW of UK today was very similar to what Ara had to deal with - a marine layer of cloud at 4 - 500' agl with poor visibility beneath, less than 1.5SM.

I took the opportunity to shoot some video on a training sortie to show those without the real world experience what such conditions look like - you can decide for yourselves whether 140 kts is a suitable speed for the conditions or if a 180 turn is a realistic option if you enter cloud.

A second video reiterates how easy a descending left hand spiral descent is to recover from - if you use the correct technique. No use of AP modes or GA, just basic but competent instrument skills from a colleague.

As soon as the videos upload I will add links to this post.


https://vimeo.com/518806704

https://vimeo.com/518881997
i am not a pilot, but is it fair to say that without automation the UA is recoverable ONLY IF the pilot is doing an instrument scan? I would be interested in seeing a similar UA video where the PF is doing something like looking up information in Foreflight on their IPAD and hasn't committed to instruments. I would also be interested in knowing whether you felt any sensation of turning or descending when you recorded the UA recovery video, and whether you felt the rapid descent in your ears. I have done some preliminary analysis that suggests that the N72EX pilot felt 1G straight into the bottom of the seat for much of the descent (see the YouTube video description for details):

.
I know you already saw it, but I feel that my video reconstruction of the crash that I published last May has aged well in light of the NTSB final report and your videos.

Last edited by airplanecrazy; 3rd Mar 2021 at 14:00.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 13:21
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by helimutt View Post
Im fairly certain that anyone who flies an S76 will tell you, flying with the AFCS disengaged is most definitely noticeable. You'd have to be unconscious to not notice a disengaged AFCS.
I think I said that immediately after the post in question.

Frankly, when we are having a conversation about the FTR being called the "button of death" we are exhibiting how amateurish an industry we seem to have evolved into. I think one of the reasons we have so many automation issues is because many pilots don't even understand the basics about AFCS and SAS, let alone upper modes. I wonder if some of the attitudes (no pun intended) are based on having zero fixed wing time? I'm sure that any pilot that has initially learned to fly on FW (especially with a gnarly old QFI smacking him around the helmet when out of trim!) first will have a different view and approach to the use of the trim function.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 13:34
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Crab - a PAR I assume, as lots of red flags and frozen needles!

i am not a pilot, but is it fair to say that without automation the UA is recoverable ONLY IF you are doing an instrument scan?
Yes....
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 15:30
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Its easy to look at a training exercise and agree with what the corrective action should be. Thing is, in the real world, the brain that decides to go scudd running is the brain that is not running on all cylinders, so you cannot expect it to make rational decisions.

I was wearing my "Land and Live" cap when I went IIMC so,...
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 15:38
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by helimutt View Post
Im fairly certain that anyone who flies an S76 will tell you, flying with the AFCS disengaged is most definitely noticeable. You'd have to be unconscious to not notice a disengaged AFCS.
But, and here comes the what if.....He was in SAS instead of ATT and when things started going pear shaped he tried to couple and may have added a further distraction trying to figure out why the AFCS would not couple up.
While that scenario is speculation, I have observed crews in the sim trying to engage upper modes in the 412 after take off and before punching in only to realize they missed a step. Between 2 of them they figure it out
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 15:54
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by donner89 View Post
But, and here comes the what if.....He was in SAS instead of ATT and when things started going pear shaped he tried to couple and may have added a further distraction trying to figure out why the AFCS would not couple up.
While that scenario is speculation, I have observed crews in the sim trying to engage upper modes in the 412 after take off and before punching in only to realize they missed a step. Between 2 of them they figure it out
But why are they in SAS in the first place? When you push the the FTR you are in SAS anyway.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 16:58
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Airplane crazy - the UA recovery can be done with or without AP and force trim but not without looking at the instruments.

The whole process of learning to instrument fly is about building an effective scan, being logical in correcting errors and most of all believing your instruments.

You do have sensations of descent, roll, pitch yaw etc but when you are in cloud, the feedback loop to confirm these sensations - your visual picture of the outside world - is missing and must be replaced by the use of the instruments.

Robbiee - the whole point of the exercise is to highlight that even if you are not firing on all cylinders when you set off to scud-run - you can recover the IIMC nightmare if you have been trained to and then use the correct techniques. I have used the same process for deliberate entry into IMC and IIMC in some stressful SAR scenarios - it works. And it works in everything from an unstabilised Gazelle through to a 139.

You don't have to be an IFR rated pilot to learn the basics of instrument flight - it could save your life one day.

212man - yes, EGDR rw11 - I completely agree with your comment about poor understanding of AP modes, whether it be SAS vs ATT or upper FD modes
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 17:55
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post

Robbiee - the whole point of the exercise is to highlight that even if you are not firing on all cylinders when you set off to scud-run - you can recover the IIMC nightmare if you have been trained to and then use the correct techniques. I have used the same process for deliberate entry into IMC and IIMC in some stressful SAR scenarios - it works. And it works in everything from an unstabilised Gazelle through to a 139.
Well my point is that, "get the job done itis" has a way of overriding training, experience, all those fancy toys you put in your aircraft, and whatever is left of what we used to call common sense.

I have absolutely no idea how to prevent these types of accidents.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 20:05
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Everyone has moments when the need to get the job done or need to get home impinges on their decision making and there are few pilots who haven't taken a chance during their flying careers - you won't ever prevent that - but at least you can arm them with the training and skills to get themselves out of the poo when it goes wrong.

This case, along with the two 139 crashes mentioned earlier are exactly a case of poor decision making coupled to a lack of training to recover when those poor decisions overtook them.

In all 3 cases, basic instrument flying skills would have saved them IF they had been applied.
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Old 3rd Mar 2021, 23:04
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by donner89 View Post
But, and here comes the what if.....He was in SAS instead of ATT and when things started going pear shaped he tried to couple and may have added a further distraction trying to figure out why the AFCS would not couple up.
While that scenario is speculation, I have observed crews in the sim trying to engage upper modes in the 412 after take off and before punching in only to realize they missed a step. Between 2 of them they figure it out
Yep in ATT mode with the force trim release switch open. Everything looks like itís coupled with command bars up but alas the aircraft is still in a modified sas mode.
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