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N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Update-

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N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Update-

Old 4th Mar 2021, 01:09
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Everyone has moments when the need to get the job done or need to get home impinges on their decision making and there are few pilots who haven't taken a chance during their flying careers - you won't ever prevent that - but at least you can arm them with the training and skills to get themselves out of the poo when it goes wrong.

This case, along with the two 139 crashes mentioned earlier are exactly a case of poor decision making coupled to a lack of training to recover when those poor decisions overtook them.

In all 3 cases, basic instrument flying skills would have saved them IF they had been applied.
Are you saying that these pilots were not trained in how to deal with IIMC?,...because even a lowly Robby pilot like myself has been trained in basic instrument flying skills, unusual attitude recovery, and the idea that climbing is a better recovery technique than the good old 180.

Thing is, once you start down that path of irrational decision making, the thought to simply climb out of it may not even cross your mind,...despite you being trained to do so. At least that's how it was for me.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 01:11
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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Which, as I say, the problem is the pilot having this unknown urge feeling he must be touching the flight controls. Don't touch the controls. Just use the trim switch, as it was designed to be used, and things are far less likely to turn pear shaped. Teaching recurrent trainees in the simulator we don't even practice flying in SAS.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 01:19
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Robbiee View Post
... and the idea that climbing is a better recovery technique than the good old 180.
I'm in the camp that the pilot did not know he was turning, or descending. I think his plan was to climb straight wings level but he was overwhelmed when suddenly finding himself IMC, alone up front, and not having configured the aircraft appropriately for what he wanted to do. Others here suspect he made a decision to turn but he lost it.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 01:59
  #184 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
I'm in the camp that the pilot did not know he was turning, or descending. I think his plan was to climb straight wings level but he was overwhelmed when suddenly finding himself IMC, alone up front, and not having configured the aircraft appropriately for what he wanted to do. Others here suspect he made a decision to turn but he lost it.
I can't speak for this guy, but for myself, I kinda froze up. I was staring at the artificial horizon trying to turn slightly left, while watching the guage get bluer and bluer, yet unable to get the signal from my eyes to my hand to push the stick forward. It was only the sound if the low rpm horn that unfroze me just in time to recover from the vertical decent that also brought me out of the clouds and the sheer luck that I had enough altitude to dump the collective and dive the nose to recover.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 07:01
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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Not knowing the complexities of operating in LAX airspace what route would an IFR flight plan for John Wayne Orange County to Caramillo. The destination was well above alternate minima.




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Old 4th Mar 2021, 08:18
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Are you saying that these pilots were not trained in how to deal with IIMC?,
More that the recency of that training has a big effect - instrument flying is a perishable skill, it has been said on here many times before.

Many pilots prepare for a planned instrument flight diligently but far fewer are ready for when an anticipated or intended VFR flight suddenly switches to IFR.

The quality and recency of your training allows to you 'switch on' your IF head and concentrate on the AI.

I've been flying for 39 years and your first time in cloud for a while can still unsettle you for a few minutes as your brain struggles with the lack of visual cues - that is where the training kicks in.

I still challenge myself and often fly IMC with no AP just to keep my skills sharp - even then I can make errors and get the 'leans'.

What chance do you have if you never see cloud, never practice an IMC abort for real and never prepare a plan B for IMC just in case when the weather is poor - that is reflected in the accidents we keep seeing.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 10:53
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
Which, as I say, the problem is the pilot having this unknown urge feeling he must be touching the flight controls. Don't touch the controls. Just use the trim switch, as it was designed to be used, and things are far less likely to turn pear shaped. Teaching recurrent trainees in the simulator we don't even practice flying in SAS.
Exactly - forward a bit, back a bit, left a bit, right a bit - all adds up to zero, so don't move it in the first place!
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 16:12
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Which, as I say, the problem is the pilot having this unknown urge feeling he must be touching the flight controls. Don't touch the controls. Just use the trim switch, as it was designed to be used, and things are far less likely to turn pear shaped. Teaching recurrent trainees in the simulator we don't even practice flying in SAS
So what skills do they have to handle an AP1 & AP2 failure where no automatic stabilisation capability exists, it's in the emergency checklist. In the current age of automatics a lot of airline aircrew are bleating about both the loss of handling skills and the airlines not permitting the exercise of those skills. Children of the magenta line they deprecatingly call it, has the absolute reliance on auto come to the helo world? Folk of my generation learnt helo IMC in the UH-1 series with nothing to keep you the right way up except a scan, and we flew actual instrument, even in the offshore in a 205 or bare basic VFR 212.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 16:38
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
More that the recency of that training has a big effect - instrument flying is a perishable skill, it has been said on here many times before.

Many pilots prepare for a planned instrument flight diligently but far fewer are ready for when an anticipated or intended VFR flight suddenly switches to IFR.

The quality and recency of your training allows to you 'switch on' your IF head and concentrate on the AI.

I've been flying for 39 years and your first time in cloud for a while can still unsettle you for a few minutes as your brain struggles with the lack of visual cues - that is where the training kicks in.

I still challenge myself and often fly IMC with no AP just to keep my skills sharp - even then I can make errors and get the 'leans'.

What chance do you have if you never see cloud, never practice an IMC abort for real and never prepare a plan B for IMC just in case when the weather is poor - that is reflected in the accidents we keep seeing.
Four months after I had been shooting approaches to checkride standards I decided to do a flight under the hood. I spent so much time struggling just to maintain level flight that I couldn't even work the radios (and to think the FAA only requires recency every six months!),...so yeah, I get the whole "deteriorating skills" thing.

Problem is, how do you get pilots to go up under the hood frequently enough to stay proficient?,...and how can we ever get that "real life" experience in a cloud when so many of us are flying VFR only aircraft?

I still believe though, that even proficiency is useless if your thought process is already set on scudd-running.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 17:12
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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If you can't stand the heat; keep out of the kitchen.

Don't go IMC unless you are up to scratch.

I've been flying for 39 years
get some time in,

As an example of how things are going I was doing a line check with a training captain on a 332L. He told me that he wanted to see my autopilot out flying and then asked me how and in which order to turn the channels off. I'll bang them all off; was my reply which I did with the cyclic cutout. The aircraft lurched, slightly, once as I placed the cyclic and trim in such a way that I was pushing forward and left to maintain level flight, - the passengers didn't notice.

He spent the next fifteen minutes occupied with looking out of the window in disbelief and turning the gain up and down on the autopilot panel to confirm that the autopilot was in fact out.

Ten minutes later the weather and traffic necessitated an ILS. I started the brief to be interrupted by him inasmuch as I was to re-engage the autopilot. I objected on the basis that if the autopilot had folded during the flight it wasn't going to fix itself for an ILS. No argument; I HAD to re-engage the autopilot. He was the captain so I did what I was told.

I can only assume that he did not have the confidence to take over with the autopilot disconnected in IMC.

That is the new standard of supervisory captains.

Last edited by Fareastdriver; 4th Mar 2021 at 17:40.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 17:25
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks FED

Robbiee - I agree, the problem is convincing those who pay for their own flying that spending more on instrument currency is worthwhile - it is a difficult thing to sell , like much of safety in aviation.

But if pilots are unwilling to keep their own skills up - I suspect you are unusual in your valiant attempts to do so - they can't be surprised when something like IIMC bites them in the ass.

I know I am ridiculously lucky to have had all that military training and mandated currency and recency requirements - and still do - but I wouldn't take my car around a race track at the edge of it's performance without some instruction first.
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 18:14
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Thanks FED
but I wouldn't take my car around a race track at the edge of it's performance without some instruction first.
Oh,...you're definitely not American!
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 18:49
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Crab and Robbiee are right - flying in IMC is a skill, which needs training to stay current.
Evenso I hold an actual IFR rating I get to seldom the opportunity to do so.
Lately I had to swap helicopters - one airport in the sun, the other ceiling just above minimum - the foggy area just being about a thousand feet thick.
Even with all systems running and a steady approach established well before entry of the cloud it was a weird feeling and I was happy, that I only had to monitor the autopilot/instruments and not to shoot the approach by hand - even more without stabilisation!
On the last VFR - Checkride was a part: Unusal Attitude Recovery
This time I had to establish on heading and altitude with the FTR Button pressed - and then to close my eyes and to continue on that heading and altitude just by feel.
After a minute the checker said - Recover - I was in a climbing turn to the left with about 30° of bank and hat the feeling of a nice straight and level flight.
On debrief the checker said, that after about 10 seconds I started the climb - and then slowly started the turn.
If you are not current - avoid by all means going IMC!!!
What might helps is defining minimums (visibility/heights/speeds) if you reach or have to reduce to either one - turn around and land, no further pushing or excuses (was a tree or so)
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Old 4th Mar 2021, 22:07
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Oh,...you're definitely not American!
I should have added "and not expect to crash"
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Old 5th Mar 2021, 00:45
  #195 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 212man View Post
Exactly - forward a bit, back a bit, left a bit, right a bit - all adds up to zero, so don't move it in the first place!
You obviously are married!!
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Old 5th Mar 2021, 01:21
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
So what skills do they have to handle an AP1 & AP2 failure where no automatic stabilisation capability exists, it's in the emergency checklist..
We never do that in the simulator with trainees. I don't ever recall an AP being failed, let alone both, to expose the trainees to this malfunction. The instructors have to be able to do it, but not the customers. The only time flight happens with the AP's off is when the pilot trainee forgets to turn them on before take-off, which can be interesting. It's tough enough getting all the basic stuff done within the time allocated let alone having a bit of fun with the AP's off.
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Old 5th Mar 2021, 03:38
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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I don't ever recall an AP being failed, let alone both
We did have an event once when a bird strike forced both throttles out of the gate and dropped both generators. Pax had fresh poultry delivered to their laps.
It's tough enough getting all the basic stuff done within the time allocated let alone having a bit of fun with the AP's off.
A perennial problem with the regulatory box ticking nature of sim rides.
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Old 5th Mar 2021, 06:33
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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If you can't fly the machine AP out, you shouldn't be flying it at all.
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Old 5th Mar 2021, 08:42
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
If you can't fly the machine AP out, you shouldn't be flying it at all.
AP out - depending on the helicopter - is an emergency
(not talking Robbies here ;-) )
and should be treated as such - declared and distractions reduced as much as possible.
Don‘t come with the old days...
Different helicopters, different IFR style
i started IFR with the Lynx, mainly to fly safe over water with an Instrument scan when there were no visible Horizon- with the occasional SRA, PAR or ILS on the places, where you knew the numbers and settings by heart.
Switched to civil helicopters with IFR on the Bo105 - no Autopilot- could be flown when in Trim by just shifting the body weight - but quite a ride in turbulance.
still, from NDB to VOR for Approach
Then BK117 - this time with a 3 axis Autopilot.
One Approach on the Check was always AP reduced/off - either due to the checker or just misbehaving on its own, when you didn’t reduce speed bevore the Final decent point and the AP couldn‘t cope with the changes.
But things have changed since then
Autopilots have four axis by now, the number of NDB and VOR decreases and its mostly GPS points by now.
The skill required now is to set up your screens and procedures, checking they are working as intended and less on the flying side. Properly set up the AP can do it better than any pilot ...
Add to that, that normal helicopter operation is VFR (if you’re not flying VIP for a living) with an occasional IFR flight.
With that set you should set up a risk analyses for your flights.
The risk of an AP failure is now close to 0 - and even so, flying a helicopter with AP of is a skill which should be trained from time to time, it is nothing which needs to be incorporated into check rides on a regular basis.
It is an (major) emergency and should be dealt with accordingly.
Bye the way, the manufacturer of the helicopter I fly emphasized lately, that the helicopter should be flown using the Autopilot as Standard procedure- hands on, except for lift off and landing - should be avoided...
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Old 5th Mar 2021, 09:26
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Originally Posted by Flying Bull View Post
...the manufacturer of the helicopter I fly emphasized lately, that the helicopter should be flown using the Autopilot as Standard procedure- hands on, except for lift off and landing - should be avoided...
Exactly. But trying to convince pilots of that is the tricky part.
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