N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Update-
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 299
Likes: 9
From: uk
The Bahama's AW139 also had two pilots up front but unless they have received proper training to operate as two crew having two pilots in the cockpit can be more of a hinderance than helpful.
From personal experience coming from a SPIFR to a MP setup does requires training & adjustment before you can operate efficiently two crew.
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 102
Likes: 87
From: USA
Yes two pilots but from the accident report:"Both pilots maintained single-pilot qualifications to operate the helicopter; they were not trained or tested as a crew of two. The helicopter was operated privately, therefore no flight crew duty limitations applied."
The Bahama's AW139 also had two pilots up front but unless they have received proper training to operate as two crew having two pilots in the cockpit can be more of a hinderance than helpful.
From personal experience coming from a SPIFR to a MP setup does requires training & adjustment before you can operate efficiently two crew.
The Bahama's AW139 also had two pilots up front but unless they have received proper training to operate as two crew having two pilots in the cockpit can be more of a hinderance than helpful.
From personal experience coming from a SPIFR to a MP setup does requires training & adjustment before you can operate efficiently two crew.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,697
Likes: 71
From: Wanaka, NZ
....or a pilot who thought it a better idea, having already decided it wasn't a better idea to turn around, to press one button and let George do the IMC flying bit for 30 seconds. For the life of me I can't think why he didn't do that. Anyway, we're repeating the same ground again.
Joined: Mar 2005
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 6,563
Likes: 952
From: Aus
There is not a pilot alive today who may not be tomorrow as the result of a cock up. Even those considered the best come to grief, Chuck Yeager punched out of an F-104 and came within inches of losing his life having lost control through poor instrument flying skills, Bob Hoover refuelled with AVTUR instead of AVGAS and had a double engine failure on take off, survived but air frame never saw air again. Another crew member in the cockpit? L-1011 crashed in the Everglades while the crew were dealing with a failed U/C light, two 747's rolled inverted on take off and crashed because the PF's attitude indicator had failed. No one has yet bred an infallible human.
No one could disagree with that.
I'm intrigued that the report makes no mention of the state of SAS, force trim, auto pilot modes etc, even to state that the status of switch positions or lit captions could not be determined. Rather germane to the accident in my mind.
What Kobe needed in this flight was a properly trained IFR operation, single, two, or multicrew doesn't much matter.
I'm intrigued that the report makes no mention of the state of SAS, force trim, auto pilot modes etc, even to state that the status of switch positions or lit captions could not be determined. Rather germane to the accident in my mind.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 189
From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
So, I throw this out there that no-one has brought up yet....... What if........ He started the climb, was talking to Kobe on intercom, then decided to turn around. Then and only then lost it during the entry into the turn. He had performed this maneuver many times. (Climb followed by left descending turn).
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
So he starts the climb into IMC and then decides to turn round and chat to the pax - that turns poor piloting into aviation negligence - you really want that as his epitaph?
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 189
From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Originally Posted by [email protected]
So he starts the climb into IMC and then decides to turn round and chat to the pax - that turns poor piloting into aviation negligence - you really want that as his epitaph?
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
So he started the turn OK and then lost it in the turn? or lost it as he rolled into the turn? which is it? Either way trying to turn IMC and descend when instead you can climb with wings level is a very poor choice.
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 189
From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Originally Posted by [email protected]
So he started the turn OK and then lost it in the turn? or lost it as he rolled into the turn? which is it? Either way trying to turn IMC and descend when instead you can climb with wings level is a very poor choice.
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,373
Likes: 931
From: Den Haag
Either one---my point being 4 or 5 posts ago was that this statement may not be true: "having already decided it wasn't a better idea to turn around". I believe he made the decision to turn around, albeit too late. I believe the initiation of the turn was deliberate, where he "lost it" after that is irrelevant.
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,697
Likes: 71
From: Wanaka, NZ
So, I throw this out there that no-one has brought up yet....... What if........ He started the climb, was talking to Kobe on intercom, then decided to turn around. Then and only then lost it during the entry into the turn. He had performed this maneuver many times. (Climb followed by left descending turn).
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 63
Likes: 30
From: Virginia, USA
Autopilot Controller
HOV: Light was likely off
FD1: Light was likely off
Flight Director Mode Selector
ALT PRE : ARM and CAP Lights were likely off
VOR APR: ARM and CAP Lights were likely off
GA: Light was likely off
I see no mention of the switch positions.
https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Documen...0Final-Rel.pdf
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Munich
youtu.be/ooqNFf6t-iY?t=2391
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: FL, USA
So, I throw this out there that no-one has brought up yet....... What if........ He started the climb, was talking to Kobe on intercom, then decided to turn around. Then and only then lost it during the entry into the turn. He had performed this maneuver many times. (Climb followed by left descending turn).
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,697
Likes: 71
From: Wanaka, NZ
Joined: May 2020
Posts: 63
Likes: 30
From: Virginia, USA
Last edited by airplanecrazy; 2nd March 2021 at 03:54.
Joined: Mar 2005
Aviation Qualifications: Military
Posts: 6,563
Likes: 952
From: Aus
Half hour discussion on the accident led by AVweb's Paul Bertorelli with HAI CEO Jim Viola and NTSB Vice-Chairman Bruce Landsberg.
Going IMC and escaping from same?
He had performed this maneuver many times. (Climb followed by left descending turn)
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 803
Likes: 52
From: Pensacola, Florida
Either one---my point being 4 or 5 posts ago was that this statement may not be true: "having already decided it wasn't a better idea to turn around". I believe he made the decision to turn around, albeit too late. I believe the initiation of the turn was deliberate, where he "lost it" after that is irrelevant.
On the other hand, I can't believe that Ara was hand-flying the S-76 at 140 knots or so with *no* SAS or AFCS or whatever you guys have in the Sikorsky. That doesn't make sense. So, how the ship tried to go inverted is a head-scratcher. At that speed, a little aft cyclic would've had them climbing fast right up to the top of the layer, which was reported to be not all that thick. I mean, it's not like he was climbing up into a solid overcast.