Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Update-

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

N72EX (Kobe Bryant) Crash Update-

Old 28th Feb 2021, 20:26
  #141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 247
Originally Posted by Fareastdriver View Post
This one had two pilots; directly employed.

AW139 G-LBAL helicopter crash in Gillingham, Norfolk
Yes two pilots but from the accident report:"Both pilots maintained single-pilot qualifications to operate the helicopter; they were not trained or tested as a crew of two. The helicopter was operated privately, therefore no flight crew duty limitations applied."

The Bahama's AW139 also had two pilots up front but unless they have received proper training to operate as two crew having two pilots in the cockpit can be more of a hinderance than helpful.

From personal experience coming from a SPIFR to a MP setup does requires training & adjustment before you can operate efficiently two crew.


finalchecksplease is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2021, 23:37
  #142 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: USA
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by finalchecksplease View Post
Yes two pilots but from the accident report:"Both pilots maintained single-pilot qualifications to operate the helicopter; they were not trained or tested as a crew of two. The helicopter was operated privately, therefore no flight crew duty limitations applied."

The Bahama's AW139 also had two pilots up front but unless they have received proper training to operate as two crew having two pilots in the cockpit can be more of a hinderance than helpful.

From personal experience coming from a SPIFR to a MP setup does requires training & adjustment before you can operate efficiently two crew.
And don't forget poor old Rescue 116 which was two employed, fully multicrew trained pilots, and it looks rather as if the two crew mullarkey actually prevented them responding to the situation with sufficient urgency. What Kobe needed in this flight was a properly trained IFR operation, single, two, or multicrew doesn't much matter.
Wide Mouth Frog is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2021, 03:16
  #143 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,543
....or a pilot who thought it a better idea, having already decided it wasn't a better idea to turn around, to press one button and let George do the IMC flying bit for 30 seconds. For the life of me I can't think why he didn't do that. Anyway, we're repeating the same ground again.
gulliBell is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2021, 07:28
  #144 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,193
There is not a pilot alive today who may not be tomorrow as the result of type of dog up. Even those considered the best come to grief, Chuck Yeager punched out of an F-104 and came within inches of losing his life having lost control through poor instrument flying skills, Bob Hoover refuelled with AVTUR instead of AVGAS and had a double engine failure on take off, survived but air frame never saw air again. Another crew member in the cockpit? L-1011 crashed in the Everglades while the crew were dealing with a failed U/C light, two 747's rolled inverted on take off and crashed because the PF's attitude indicator had failed. No one has yet bred an infallible human.
What Kobe needed in this flight was a properly trained IFR operation, single, two, or multicrew doesn't much matter.
No one could disagree with that.

I'm intrigued that the report makes no mention of the state of SAS, force trim, auto pilot modes etc, even to state that the status of switch positions or lit captions could not be determined. Rather germane to the accident in my mind.
megan is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2021, 17:09
  #145 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,864
Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
having already decided it wasn't a better idea to turn around,
So, I throw this out there that no-one has brought up yet....... What if........ He started the climb, was talking to Kobe on intercom, then decided to turn around. Then and only then lost it during the entry into the turn. He had performed this maneuver many times. (Climb followed by left descending turn).
Gordy is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2021, 17:47
  #146 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 8,782
So he starts the climb into IMC and then decides to turn round and chat to the pax - that turns poor piloting into aviation negligence - you really want that as his epitaph?
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2021, 18:47
  #147 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,864
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
So he starts the climb into IMC and then decides to turn round and chat to the pax - that turns poor piloting into aviation negligence - you really want that as his epitaph?
Nope, the aircraft has an intercom system. Whether he was talking on it or not, the possibility is there that he started the turn before getting disorientated and then lost it as he rolled into the turn---this scenario is plausible.
Gordy is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2021, 20:11
  #148 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 8,782
So he started the turn OK and then lost it in the turn? or lost it as he rolled into the turn? which is it? Either way trying to turn IMC and descend when instead you can climb with wings level is a very poor choice.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2021, 20:21
  #149 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Posts: 1,864
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
So he started the turn OK and then lost it in the turn? or lost it as he rolled into the turn? which is it? Either way trying to turn IMC and descend when instead you can climb with wings level is a very poor choice.
Either one---my point being 4 or 5 posts ago was that this statement may not be true: "having already decided it wasn't a better idea to turn around". I believe he made the decision to turn around, albeit too late. I believe the initiation of the turn was deliberate, where he "lost it" after that is irrelevant.
Gordy is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2021, 20:48
  #150 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Nigeria
Age: 55
Posts: 5,086
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Either one---my point being 4 or 5 posts ago was that this statement may not be true: "having already decided it wasn't a better idea to turn around". I believe he made the decision to turn around, albeit too late. I believe the initiation of the turn was deliberate, where he "lost it" after that is irrelevant.
Hard to rationalise, as you either turn back whilst still visual, or you commit to going IMC then recovering through a recognised IFR procedure. Not, go IMC, then turn back and descend into VMC from where you just came from. But, I'm speaking as an IFR pilot with a different perspective of being in real IMC than maybe he had. Albeit I have also carried out low level pull ups into IMC (that were contingency, and with charts and frequencies on my knee, ready) from marginal VMC (and also put downs!)
212man is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2021, 23:01
  #151 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,543
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
So, I throw this out there that no-one has brought up yet....... What if........ He started the climb, was talking to Kobe on intercom, then decided to turn around. Then and only then lost it during the entry into the turn. He had performed this maneuver many times. (Climb followed by left descending turn).
No way. I don't believe for a second the pilot knew he was turning, because he sure didn't know he was descending.
gulliBell is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2021, 00:29
  #152 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by megan View Post
I'm intrigued that the report makes no mention of the state of SAS, force trim, auto pilot modes etc, even to state that the status of switch positions or lit captions could not be determined. Rather germane to the accident in my mind.
Good point, it does seem odd that those items were not mentioned in the report. I know from the docket that most of the indicator bulbs in the aircraft were missing or damaged. Here are the DAFCS indicators which I think could reasonably be determined:

Autopilot Controller
HOV: Light was likely off
FD1: Light was likely off

Flight Director Mode Selector
ALT PRE : ARM and CAP Lights were likely off
VOR APR: ARM and CAP Lights were likely off
GA: Light was likely off

I see no mention of the switch positions.

https://data.ntsb.gov/Docket/Documen...0Final-Rel.pdf


airplanecrazy is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2021, 01:41
  #153 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2021
Location: Munich
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Nope, the aircraft has an intercom system. Whether he was talking on it or not, the possibility is there that he started the turn before getting disorientated and then lost it as he rolled into the turn---this scenario is plausible.
It's absolutely not.

youtu.be/ooqNFf6t-iY?t=2391
avionik is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2021, 02:27
  #154 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
So, I throw this out there that no-one has brought up yet....... What if........ He started the climb, was talking to Kobe on intercom, then decided to turn around. Then and only then lost it during the entry into the turn. He had performed this maneuver many times. (Climb followed by left descending turn).
The pilot told ATC he's climbing to 4000ft....
swisshelipilot is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2021, 03:32
  #155 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wanaka, NZ
Posts: 2,543
Originally Posted by airplanecrazy View Post
...I know from the docket that most of the indicator bulbs in the aircraft were missing or damaged...
Just one indicator bulb missing is hard to stomach, that most were missing (if that is true) is blatantly unforgivable. The bulbs are easy to change and there is no excuse for them to be missing, even for a VFR flight.


gulliBell is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2021, 04:31
  #156 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by gulliBell View Post
Just one indicator bulb missing is hard to stomach, that most were missing (if that is true) is blatantly unforgivable. The bulbs are easy to change and there is no excuse for them to be missing, even for a VFR flight.
Sorry, I didnít mean to imply that the bulbs were missing at the start of the flight, but I think they were missing or destroyed as a result of the crash.



Last edited by airplanecrazy; 2nd Mar 2021 at 04:54.
airplanecrazy is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2021, 05:30
  #157 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,193
Half hour discussion on the accident led by AVweb's Paul Bertorelli with HAI CEO Jim Viola and NTSB Vice-Chairman Bruce Landsberg.



He had performed this maneuver many times. (Climb followed by left descending turn)
Going IMC and escaping from same?
megan is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2021, 07:30
  #158 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: EGDC
Posts: 8,782
Clutching at straws I'm afraid Gordy - and frankly, since you have a vested interest, I'm surprised you have commented at all on this accident.
crab@SAAvn.co.uk is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2021, 17:32
  #159 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Pensacola, Florida
Posts: 717
Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Either one---my point being 4 or 5 posts ago was that this statement may not be true: "having already decided it wasn't a better idea to turn around". I believe he made the decision to turn around, albeit too late. I believe the initiation of the turn was deliberate, where he "lost it" after that is irrelevant.
Gordy, I have to admit that I did not consider the "deliberate 180" scenario. And with all due respect, I don't think that's what Ara was trying to do. He told the SoCal Approach controller that he was climbing to 4,000 feet. Heck, he was only about 7 nm SW of Van Nuys. If his intention was to return to Van Nuys, I believe he would've done his 180 and called Van Nuys Tower, not tell SoCal that he was climbing. I really think that Ara's intention was to continue on to Camarillo, as "VFR" as possible. After all, from anecdotal stories we've heard about him, he doesn't seem like he was the most stringent follower of FAR's.

On the other hand, I can't believe that Ara was hand-flying the S-76 at 140 knots or so with *no* SAS or AFCS or whatever you guys have in the Sikorsky. That doesn't make sense. So, how the ship tried to go inverted is a head-scratcher. At that speed, a little aft cyclic would've had them climbing fast right up to the top of the layer, which was reported to be not all that thick. I mean, it's not like he was climbing up into a solid overcast.
FH1100 Pilot is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2021, 17:50
  #160 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,309
Possibly the pilot believed the SAS or AFCS was engaged when it wasn't?
RatherBeFlying is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.